Language / Polish/Ukrainian words similarities [209]

ALIENBILL!
As a native English speaker myself, raised though bilingual English-German in the States, Polish might seem superficially less complex than Russian (or for that matter Ukrainian) solely by virtue of their alphabetic similarities, save for several different letters which I'm not able to reporoduce on my keyboard in the office.

However, morphologically, i.e. phonologically, Polish has one extra case from the Russian's six (the vocative, though rarely used), a tongue-twistingly difficult pronounciation ("Chrzasz brzmi w trzecinie"= The beetle buzzes in the reeds) and numerous irregularities in both declension as well as the counting system.

This alone, having studied both, makes Polish harder for Americans than Russian!
Marek

Language / Polish or any Slavic language key to any other Slavic languages? [126]

Spell of Bliss,

a famous emphatic quote by the late Pope Jan Pawel when asked a similar question regarding Polish and Russian: "All Poles understand Russian, but nobody speaks it!"

Undoubtedly, such remarks reflect the troublesome history between Poland and its neighbors:)

Speaking for me personally, I can understand the numbers in all Slavic languages, having already studied Polish, much as in the Romance tongues having learned French or in, say, Dutch, after having learned German etc.

Marek

Language / Polish/Ukrainian words similarities [209]

Bill,

A Russian native speaker told me recently that Bulgarian is "closer" for her to Russian than the other Slavic languages.

Don't know if this means anything or not :)
Marek

Language / Polish or any Slavic language key to any other Slavic languages? [126]

Michal!

The issue of accent, i.e. pronunciation, is different from that of morphology or inflectional structure. Granted, Russian's lack of fixed syllabic stress makes it resemble more English than, say, Polish or Czech.

However, the Polish numeric system after "five", coupled with the addition of the (often optional) vocative case to pan-slavic six cases, the repetition of endings between accusative vs. genitive, are often quite confusing for a foreigner. In addition, Polish has " byl", "byla" "bylo" depending upon the gender of the speaker or the object described. Russian has "Anna byl", "Wiktor byl", with no difference in past tense gender!

Marek

Language / Polish or any Slavic language key to any other Slavic languages? [126]

OOOPS again!!:)
Thanks Michal. I posted too soon, I later realized. That says more about my somewhat limited Russian than it does about my Polish (which I honestly consider fluent, albeit not always accurate.)

I'd neglected to mention the "byly" form for feminine plurals. Right again.
Why "Ja robotal odako."? Perhaps because in Russian, the speaker's gender is clear by the very lack of a verbal ending. The latter though, is pure guesswork on my part. In Polish: "Pracowalem...", without the compulsory pronoun compared to Russian!

Marek

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Michal,

As far as the relative transparency of Polish, to reiterate, it most definitely is far "easier" from the point of view of pronunciation than English or French, even German with its "voiceless" dipthongs (e.g. "wie" =how. pronounced as a single phoneme vs. Polish "wie" = she/she knows, pronounced as TWO separate letters, only the "w" as English "v"-sound, taking some getting used to!).

Its constant irregularities (typical of pan-Slavic nothwithstanding) however, can pose serious problems for the average English-speaking learner (as opposed to Spanish or italian, phonetically speaking, of course), who have to contend with a seemingly capricious case system (as with all inflected languages:)) and occasional discrepancies in verb classes, not mention aspectual issues as well as word order.

Having grown up with German as a second first language and having many years of Latin under my belt, Polish was not a problem to learn.

I am, though, a notable exception among my colleagues who have also studied Polish.

Marek

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

PLG,

The first, I'm frankly unsure about how to translate. The second is, "Rome wasn't built in a day.", The third, " What Jack never learned as a boy, he won''t learn as a grown up either." :)

Marek

Language / What should I end my last name with? [16]

Just my two-cents worth, but I learned that male and females names, e.g. "Nowak, i.e. "Pan Nowak vs. "Pani Nowakowa" vary if the family name is of an unmarried woman, for example "Nowakowa" = "Mrs. Nowak", whereas "Nowakówna" would be then "Miss Nowak" (but not "Miss Nowakowa").

Is this correct? I ask because the above is not identical in every Slavic language, such as Czech or Russian.
Marek

Language / What should I end my last name with? [16]

Hi, "Head" :) !

A tad archaic, I suppose, much as "Panna" for "Pani", to indicate an unmarried woman.
I've never used "Panna" by the way, even though we learned it in school.
Marek

Language / Polish/Ukrainian words similarities [209]

Michal,

That's true enough what you say. Nonethless, Polish seems to have a slightly more intricate morphology as well as phonological structure than other Slavic languages, including Russian (Slovene though, does have a vestigial "dual" form!).

Apart from stress patterns in Polish, an added difficulty in pronunciation, is the proto-slavic, i.e. left over, nasals in Polish vowels "a" and "e", a phenomenom no longer found, for example, in Modern Russian or in Ukrainian.

Marek

Language / Polish Past Tense [47]

Bart,

Po angielsku jest poprawny "It is I." NIE: "It's me." Jednak mowi sie "It's me.", bo jest akzeptowany. :)

Pozdrawiam!
Marek

Language / Polish Past Tense [47]

Hello, Detroit!
I presume English is your native language. (Joke: Are you an American? - No, I just play one on TV. (groan!) ) :)
As a matter of fact, noone, least of all myself, was "criticizing"anyone, certainly not Ivonka, whose comprehensive posts are a pleasure undiguised.

"It is I." however, I must disappoint you, IS actually grammatically correct. I was merely using it as an example of how overcorrect usage can oddly enough be "wrong".

Marek

Language / Polish Past Tense [47]

Michal,
Of course, Ivonka, Grzegorsz and other native Poles who though know English "fluently", make plenty of mistakes in it as well. This doesn't however in any way diminish the helpfulness of some of their posts, particularly if one has no immediate access to a grammar.

The age old struggle: fluency vs. accuracy :)

Marek

Language / Polish Past Tense [47]

Hello, "Hello"!

Now, now let's keep things on a friendly basis. Ethnic stereotypes are often just that, and help noone.
Besides, everyone knows that the Hungarians top even the Poles in this respect (followed of course by the Austrians) :) :)

Joke: What's the national passtime in Austria?
Answer: Complaining.

Marek

Language / Polish Past Tense [47]

I'm afraid though, I find them a trifle more unkind (and infinitely more racist!) than the Austrian jokes. :)
Marek

PS
The Irish have historically gotten a rather bum deal. The Austrians, on the other hand, get all the ribbing they deserve!!!

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

"Przypadki" means "cases", grammatical or otherwise.

The case tables have already been provided by Yvonka, myself and a few others who, unlike me, are either native speakers or Brits who've lived and worked in the EU.

Anyway, that's what it means. The singular, incidentally, is "przypadek"! In the plural form of all nouns ending with "-ek", "przypadek", "statek" (ship), etc., the final "t" inverts and the "e" disappears, therefore, "przypadek" > "przypadki" and NOT "przypadeki"!! Welcome to the vagueries of Polish (almost as insane as those of English spelling -:) )

Marek

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Eseva,
Nou, goeiemiddag!

Why you love the Slavonic cases I can well understand (being myself also fluent in Dutch) being that Dutch has lost almost all of theirs.

Marek

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Nou, de Polen zijn niet echt goed, hebben toch geduld, toen buitenlanders zoals ik hun taal spreken. -:)

Marek
Typisch voor de Polen, als ze proberen, Engels te spreken: "Ai ahmm stahsjink ahtt ooniwersituh Ienglisch lahngwitsch,, trrraijink tu betterrr spikink.....

Hoi, hoi Eseva!

Tak, plynnie mówie po holundersku, ja, ik kan vloeiend Nederlands, omdat ik 't privé hadde gelerd 'n daarna op de universiteit gestudeerd. Ik ben ook einige dagen in Nederland geweest, toevallig was m'n vriendin Haagse!

Ale moze tu jest lepiej, "chatowac" po polsku (albo po angielsku!). Jak dobrze (Hoe goed) mówisz po angielsku (spreek je al Engels)? Czy czytasz literature klasysczna w jezyku angielskim? (Lees je burgerlijke literatuur in 't Engels?)

Pa!
Marek

DLA ADMINYSTRATORÓW:

Eseva and I were posting regarding my fluency in Dutch and Polish. I asked about how good the level of English is, as well as whether the person also reads solid bourgeoise prose fiction. That was it!

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Hoi, Eseva!

Ik ken toch Mickiewicz en andere schrijvers (in 't Pools), b.v. Slowiacki en Sienkiewicz enz.

Trouwens ken ik ook deze tongebreker. In 't Duits: "Der Kaefer summt im Schilf. " = The beetle buzzes in the reeds (bullrushes).

Maar ik moet alleein een fout verbeteren: "....I have less trouble THAN with Polish.."

Daaaag!
Marek

PS
"Enige" heb ik fout gespellt.("Einige" is al Duits!)

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Wiem, ze moja ortografia jest blada.
Rowniez!

Marek

Language / Need help with a Polish word/spelling Basia [20]

"Boska" by the way, is also used in the fixed phrase in Polish: " Matka Boska Czestochowa" = The Black Madonna of Tschenstochau (German spelling here --:) )

Marek

Language / Need help with a Polish word/spelling Basia [20]

...and the (non-idiomatic) expression: "Matko Boska!", "Ale Matko Boska!", both roughly equivalent to such exclamations as "Mother o' Mary!", "Saints preserve us!" etc.

Marek

Language / Polish/Ukrainian words similarities [209]

Osiol!

With the topic "false friends", you've hit upon one of the most fascinating, yet misunderstood, areas in linguistics, fascinating at least to me. A certain Prof. Daniel Buncic, a Croatian linguist, has published a monumental paper on precisely this subject. He cites as examples Pol. "pismo" (work of writing, written opus) vs. Russ "pismo" (letter), Pol. Russ. "slovo/"slowo" (word) vs. Cr. "slovo" (letter of the alphabet) and numerous others.

Marek

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Native American!
As a linguist and speaker of various Slavic as well as Germanic languages, I must disagree with your tack. One cannot in good conscience say, "a language has too many cases!"... etc. or that a language is too complicated.

The latter simply suggests a personal frustration with that particular language. Icelandic, which you mention, is an especially rich and textured language, and, like Polish, rich in inflection, which is what endows it with its own particular music.

Marek

Language / Polish/Ukrainian words similarities [209]

Sidewinder!

No, umiesz zrozumiec, co pisze? Jezyk ukrainski ma roznicy z samoglosami, n.pr. "nic" (wymowiony "nicz") przeciw "noc", "pozny" przeciw "pizny" itd.

Your written English though seems unusually good! Most Slavic speakers make numerous obvious usage errors, e.g. the person-tense agreement, yet you seem to make almost none of those. I'm delightfully surprised. Have you spent time here in the States, studied or visited the UK??

Marek

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

HAL!

Finnish, as with other related Uralic tongues, shares with the Baltic group along with the more "conservative" languages, a richly intricate morphology.

Polish, slightly more Latinized though in its higher-level vocabulary, retains this intricacy.

Marek

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

Norwegian is relatively easy for me, having already studied the two other Scandinavian languages Danish and Swedish.

It is though, far more polarized than either of these two, since there are essentially three official "languages" in Norway; Bokmaal, Riksmaal (formerly Dano-Norwegian) and Nynorsk (formerly "landsmaal").

Snakker du tilfaeldigt norsk??
Marek

Language / Usage of Polish Instrumental Case? [22]

The Instrumental Case ("narzednik", in Polish!) is funny. On the one hand, it's true that what seems to English speakers as pure nominative, e.g. the verb "to be", takes the Instrumental in Polish "Jestem Polakiem.", "On jest lekarzem.", "Czy Pan jest tlumaczem?" etc. The exception here is in more informal speech, such as "On nauczyciel, nieprawda?", without the verb 'to be' in the clause.

There are, by the way, a number of verbs which require the Instrumental Case, as other verbs require the Dative, Accusative or Genitive, which I frankly don't all recall, except, oddly enough, the verb "interesowac sie" = to be interested in

"Interesuje sie rolnictwem." = I am interested in agriculture

Like in German, in Polish, a case ending will be used without a preposition which would be necessary in English, for example, "to be interested IN" ....

Marek

Polonia / Ever been to Sweden? [185]

Hejsan!
Ja, jag har varit tvaa gaanger i Sverige, i Goteborg och i Boraas. Goteborg ar en absolut vacker stad.

Unfortunately though, I'll have to continue in English (or Polish), as this is PF.
I've never been to Ystad, although of course I've heard of it.
Next on my trip though is Stockholm, 'Staden paa vattnet'! (Miasto na jeziorze).

Hej daa!

Language / Przypadki (Polish language cases) [59]

In English phonetics, roughly

V-sound (but NOT 'vee', more schwa 'vuh') TEWSHYAWWNTS TRISTA AWSSHYEM
GYEHSHAWNTUHM PYAWNTUHM RAWKOO and all, except for the 'gyeSHAWNTUHM'
part, accented on the first or primary syllable.

In Polish 'Tysiąc trysta osiemdziesiątym piątym ..' etc.

Hope this helps a little!