UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

We tend to use gravy with mashed potatoes whereas Poles use surówki (side salad). Subtle, yes.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

I have ascertained your position, Teffle, so that's fine.

We can reach a compromise and say that it's complicated and can agree that abortion on the scale of the title is shocking.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Comparisons are not futile or irrelevant at all, Teffle. Poland, Spain, Malta (I presume) and Ireland are predominantely Catholic countries. Religion shapes the law there in such areas as abortion just as the Koran/Quran takes a harsh stand against theft.

I don't like labels but I see the need to protect the child to be and afford them just that.

Many countries are lighter on religion and this often reflects in their laws.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

So if you are against killing then don't do it but if you want it, do it? Is that what you are saying, Teffle? Is abortion killing a child to be or not?

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

You are confusing morality with legality, Teffle. It is the morality of the legislators Vs the morality of those that have to live with the issue of abortion. Legality is simply that one group of people took a stand and made it law. Please look above as I outlined it there.

I agree with Zeti here, Teffle. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it moral and she gave a perfect example. Cutting off sb's head or hand is repulsive to us and draconian but somehow accepted as legal in some Arabic countries.

Convex, should those couples have been stupid enough to have a child in the first place if they didn't think it through? Raising a child can be hell for some (heaven too) but they can't take the killing option to bail themselves out.

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

Sorry, I meant symbol there ;0

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Look at vulnerability, Teffle. Honour killings are in the hands of those that can reverse course. They make a conscious choice. When you bring those killing forceps down on the vulnerable and defenceless feeling foetus, there is no going back.

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

True enough :) Be subtle or be attacked ;) ;)

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Convex, I raised that point above under the heading of a societal issue but didn't flesh it out. It is complicated, yes. Sb called convex said "there is a huge surplus of unwanted children already" ;) ;) Why is that, convex? Adoption should be explored and I think you mention that too. You are making out that another couple had sex and that they pass the burden onto another couple. A couple made that child and it's their fault if they thought about it too cheaply (although it can be more complicated, of course).

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

Well, that's rather simplistic but I see what you are saying.

I keep reminding people that many choose jobs according to that which they can see themselves doing. Without going into the flip side of that coin, one character may see themself as a clerk, another as a garbage disposal man and another as a public dentist and all be equally happy given their compatibility of character with that job. Not everyone is cut out to be a top lawyer or doctor, nor do they even want to be. Therefore, they know who they are and work with that and their financial issues.

I imagine this to be a commonality and not a difference.

A subtle difference? We like to cook skinless sausages but the Poles have many raw types which are precooked but eaten cold.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Well, in the sense of avoiding murder, Teffle. I don't believe that a wider interpretation of personhood leads us to the position that it begins at conception. Yes, the DNA blueprint is there but it needs more than that. However, you are still killing a creation.

The Polish exception cases are radical to far right people as they cannot condone abortion at all. To me, that's disrespectful to rape victims (rape being one of the exceptions).

Others as in those that were innocently made into an entity without their consent (for obvious reasons) and are thus, in all likelihood, a person to be. I know, Teffle, and that's why I made the very same point that you have just made to a guy called Gunslinger on this forum. Legality is one aspect of the wider debate on abortion and we can't ignore it. However, having exhausted that with him, I came to the realisation that we equally and even more so can't neglect biological reality that life is evolution here. I'm with you on this one and I go against the anti abortionists insofar as to say that I don't see full personhood in the eyes of the law as being at conception. However, they have a decent point with regards to the DNA component and we should be under a moral and perhaps legal obligation to guide a zygote through to its first breath and beyond. This is how life comes about and to turn around and say that we should be able to freely abort based on a whim or slack choice is to give license and justification to those that were perhaps (probably) careless and can't stand by their decisions.

As such, there is a dangerous precedent. To get to birth needs care. We cannot view that most natural of processes with reckless abandon.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

I hope I was never a dirty idea but the result of a well-thought-through process. Yes, I am happy. Yes, I do yet I choose not to speak for most people.

I raised sentience in another debate which kicks in at around 22 weeks into the pregnancy. Also, the zygote has no personhood. However, I have revised my position since that debate and believe that the person to be is the deciding factor. Sorry but whoopsadaisy abortions (all too frequent) just don't cut the mustard. Aborting very early on under normal circumstances provides a glimmer of a justification due to the lack of sentience and clear lack of personhood (against those that say personhood begins at conception) but why did they have unprotected sex in the first place?

Teffle, of course it's a good argument. To say otherwise is to challenge/attack the very biology which has brought us all to being as we are now. What, you don't think that a zygote should be allowed to develop? There is no accelerating process, Teffle, and we can't disrespect a zygote as nothing if we all had to go through that process to get to where we are now. You are denying others that which was given to you.

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

Quite a few Poles have an inferiority complex yet quite a few others have a superiority complex. I like the realists in the middle :)

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Convex, you make a decision to have a kid most of the time. At least reasonable people do. Contraception prevents that which you don't want at that time. Is that odd to you? Maybe we should let a baby develop every time we have sex? ;) ;) Come on, convex, think!

Were you once a blob too? Are you happy that you were allowed to go beyond that stage to become what you are now? Do you imagine most people are happy to receive the gift of life?

Contraception is preventive. Abortion is, well, abortive ;)

You have to make the presumption that it will be a child and guide it through to being just that, convex. It isn't the objective to have as many children as possible, that's an extreme argument.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Teffle, please tell me when you heard of the Abortion Referendum. Have you ever taken part in one? Lawmakers are just people with their own inbuilt bias and their calling abortion legal doesn't make it right or those that say it is illegal wrong. People often legislate against other groups.

Now, the other matter is one of religion which is but one factor in the shaping of law. Nonetheless, broad social consensus supports the making of abortion illegal and, like it or not, the voice of the people is the hallmark of democracy and law formation. Religion makes the position clearer but as long as the voices of others are heard too.

Guns are products which can kill. Abortion is a procedure which does kill.

Let me be blunt, Teffle. When aborting, are you killing a person to be, assuming that nature takes its normal course?

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Law is social consensus, or aims to be at any rate. Surely society doesn't want the killing of foetuses!? However, the mother may be in no position to support that child but that's the social/financial aspect. It doesn't really justify killing.

Now, it isn't murder as many claim as the foetus or embryo is not yet a person so fails to meet the test of personhood. However, it is killing of sth with a distinctive DNA pattern and, as I keep saying, a person to be.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Recognising the right of the woman to choose is all grand in theory but there are some things that are harder to leave to trust in reality. Abortion is viewed so cheaply and, like it or not, it is killing sth which has been created. Mistakes happen and rape is never meant to be so there is this need for flexibility. I could never be a member of the far right on this issue, far from it, but the notion that abortion would just be driven underground is a sign of human weakness. How much respect do they have for themselves if they kill that which is a person to be?

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

So I support Zeti's position then, Teffle. It is for the courts to get round the notion of personhood and philosophers to get their heads around sentience but we need to nurture that foetus until it becomes a baby. Zygote-embryo-foetus-conception. The 3 exceptions ensure a degree of flexibility that is needed. The first breath notion of the American system disrespects this process til conception.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

She is morally against abortion but I don't know if she gives much weight to the 3 exceptions recognised by Polish Law also, I believe (NOT the RCC). I can't remember what she said on the matter.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

It needs our protection in most cases, that is true. There is no need for sexual abstinence but just more care.

Teffle, Zeti isn't denying that. It is the case that it is a person to be and unless that foetus came to be there through rape or profound duress then we have a moral duty to protect it.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

You know, I learned a lot from my debate with that far-right American. Here was me taking an overly legalistic approach to personhood and sentience when some more humanity and a biological approach were required. The bottom line, avoiding the living entity at conception debate, is that it is a person to be and that we can't expedite that process through any fast forwards. Nature takes its own course and we merely guide.

However, the human element is that mothers often suffer and that it can be a complicated matter. That's why I like the approach of the Church of England in granting 3 exceptions to the disallowance of abortion.

However, those stats just make me sad every time I look at them.

News / 30 to 40 thousand abortions by Polish girls in foreign countries [142]

Still, doesn't it gnaw away at the conscience of your average Polish woman in the UK that she has done sth completely anathema to her own cultural norms? It is a horrible decision to have to make and she shouldn't be stigmatised but I can't help but feel that she'd be castigated by her own for getting into that position in the first place.

Understanding is required but those numbers go beyond coincidence and imply slackness.

History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

Which tells me that she isn't really from there or lives in a closed circle of smug gits and doesn't venture outwith that.

Many Poles and Scots tend to be rugged, if anything

History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

That's possible :)

History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

I wouldn't say so ;)

Love / Polish girls fall for Indian guys ? [217]

Polish girls don't like curries that much for the most part. Therefore, there goes the trump card of the Indian in a oner ;)

UK, Ireland / The more subtle differences: Ireland/Britain v Poland [310]

I can't reveal my sources or secrets ;)

History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

Allison, smug air? Some Scots show that and some don't but I don't see it as being a Scottish trait. The same with Poles. Some show it and some don't.

Stuarts? Not Stewarts? ;)

Love / Polish girls fall for Indian guys ? [217]

Some do but most don't. Almost all the Polish women I know would not go with an Indian guy. It's not because they feel superior in any way, it's more that Indians tend not to be their type.

News / Why is Poland developing so slowly or in the wrong direction? Who is responsible ? [317]

That's why people wangle things here. Mnóstwo (sporo) są kombinatorze :) It is a way of life for some and I've experienced it first-hand on many occasions. I'm not going to elaborate on that. The problem is that they have to use their 'spryt' (cunning) in order to mask it from the tax office. I'm no different and again I'll say no more on the matter.