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Posts by gumishu  

Joined: 6 Apr 2009 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - A		 Last Post: 24 Nov 2024
Threads: Total: 15 / In This Archive: 3
Posts: Total: 6183 / In This Archive: 3025 		From: Poland, Opole vicinity
Speaks Polish?: yes

Displayed posts: 3028 / page 87 of 101
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gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

It's about the principle.

it's very similar to the situation of Sorbs - why does not Germany give Sorbs autonomy - because even where they live they are minority - the same here

The main point is that Prussia never intended to destroy the polishness of their polish minority,

I am not that sure in the end - like I said - the pressure on polishness grew in time
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

Sorry...all political propaganda can't deny the facts. Poles lived well in Prussia, definitely better than under
Habsburg or Russian rule.

1. what political propaganda? - this is an excerpt of a scientific (historical) paper and not even by anybody Polish (guessing by the name)

2. I don't deny that Poles in Prussia were better-off than those in Russian and Austrian partition - it was firstly due to early abolishment of serfdom (1807?) and introduction of liberal constitution of 1848 (with political parties and so forth) - that allowed Poles to organize themselves (forming cooperatives, various societies and the like) - but the pressure on Poles grew then significantly (from 1871)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

- growing influence of Poles in Prussia to cause anxiety in Berlin

because it was agaist what Berlin wished for simply (Polish editor arrested; his fellow publisher searched and political materials confiscated;

'The Polish agitation, the growing prosperity and influence of Polish middle classes and the expansion of Poles in Prussia,..., all continue to cause anxiety' - read about Hakata and Prussian/German colonization policies in Wielkopolska and then you will surely know why growing prosperity of Poles there caused anxiety in Berlin -

also read this - de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Drzyma%C5%82a
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

I said, as I have always said, that the bulk of the Polish navy ran away days before the first shots were fired and that they sailed straight past British vessels which were going the other way in order to take on the same Germans that the Polish navy was running from.

and ? did those British ships engage any Germans?

(edit: they could not engage Germans on September 1- why???)

btw the three Polish destroyers met two British warships and a couple of British sailors boarded the Polish ships (edit was here ;)(including wireless operators)

and well how do you Harry imagine the three ships becoming inter operational with the British Navy within hours ???

On 31 August, the ships were spotted and followed by German reconnaissance seaplanes, and the group changed course towards Norway in order to shake off the pursuit during the night, when they returned to their original course towards the UK. The ships entered the North Sea, and at 0925 on 1 September learned about the German invasion of Poland. At 1258, they encountered the Royal Navy destroyers HMS Wanderer and Wallace and received a liaison officer. At 1737, they docked in Leith, the port of Edinburgh.
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

The Russians waited 8 days before they invaded poland

the Russians waited two weeks actually - remember 17th of September (the rhyme's coincidental) - but signing Ribbentrop-Molotov they must have already known Franco-British guarantees to Poland would remain on paper - they could have been just cautious
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

Poles flourished in Prussia...not in Austria, not in Russia, not under Nazi rule, not under Commie rule but in Prussia. Keep that in mind..

after they became German???
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

t was an agreement signed in written form between two nation states: therefore it was an international treaty (although an interim one).

give a link

And if the Polish government had just said "OK, we'll stick to the treaty as you request.", what would the Czechoslovaks have done? Perhaps they could have followed the behaviour of Poland on the very day after the international interim treaty was signed and just invaded the disputed land. Or maybe they could have sent 'rebel' troops as part of a 'mutiny' (as Poland did

I think you don't understand my point - there was an interim local agreement as for the demarcation in Silesia - the Czechs decided to conquer most of the area - so they have violated the local agreement
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

When one breaks an international treaty, one loses the right to whine about the effects of that action. And let's not forget that Poland first broke the interim agreement the very day after it was signed.

1. it was not an international treaty but a local agreement
2. Poland only decreed creation of parliamentary constituencies in the part of the region that was locally agreed to be Polish
3. a final demarkation was supposed to be agreed by central governments - however Czechoslovakia decided it needed the area badly and resolved to conquer it (january 1919)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

Parliament election is hardly exercising sovereign rule. The bottom line of the 1919-20 affair is that Czechoslovakia robbed the regions where Poles were ethnical majority of the option to choose their preferred country. How is that OK for local people?

but it was very OK for Czechoslovakia - they sort of badly needed that coal that the bloody Poles lived on top of
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

Harry:
And why did they do that? Because Poland was exercising sovereign rule in the disputed area despite having agreed not to.
Parliament election is hardly exercising sovereign rule. The bottom line of the 1919-20 affair is that Czechoslovakia robbed the regions where Poles were ethnical majority of the option to choose their preferred country. How is that OK for local people?

talking to Harry is often very diifficult - he once insisted Polish navy should have stayed in its whole in the Baltic (and then most probably end up like those unfortunate ORP 'Wicher' and ORP 'Gryf' and most of Polish submarines) - seems to me like Harry is prejudiced against things Polish ;) - let him be

oh and he claims Polish troops were running from Germans in 1939 (if I understood that correctly) - yeah sure - they kept on fleeing Germans for three days at Mokra - so disorganized they were :P (and the poor Westerplatte guys who could not swim and escape to Sweden had no choice but to fight :P - they were so scared of the Germans they kept on fighting for 7 days)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

had the Polish culture been preserved these lands could have returned once to Poland (yes they were parts of Poland before in case you didn't know) - it's not very kind of you to demand of people to abandon their language simply (especially when you intend to use them as cannon fodder next)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

well, you claim Prussia was so much an enlighted and liberal state

from my point of view back in 1746 Habsburg rule of Silesia seems much more liberal (allowing for education in one's mother tongue)

or maybe allowing for education in one's mother tongue is oppression rather than liberty - how do I know after all?
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

gumishu:
well if you intend to live in Lvov go ahead and don't mix the rest of Polish population into your personal affair

Ah !dry up mishu ! As if your views counted for more .....

my views are shared by the vast majority of Polish population who don't give a damn about Lwów, Wilno or Grodno - only care for those Poles left behind there (like in Lithuania)

what's the English equivalent of gmina? County?

I think it's parish (or borrough)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

Do you mean the austrian partition or what?

I don't know - are you stupid? or just have a deep-rooted desire to deflect any difficult questions?

of course I mean the times of Habsburg rule of Silesia (where did I mention the austrian partition)

* Sense of Order

I would argue that if you told Bavarians that they owed their 'Sense of Order' to Prussians they will be pretty pissed off

not to mention some other points of your list
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

Add them to your 100,000 Lithuanians and we have a figure more than a thousand times higher than the number of Poles who fought in the Battle of Britain.

the figure is perhaps hundreds times more than a numeber of all allied people fighting in the Battle of Britain - what is that arguement about -

- btw Winston Churchill once uttered these words: Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. - it appears these few Polish fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain (30?) mattered (I don't claim Churchill meant only Polish fighter pilots of course)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

what is that you don't understand here - there was some education in Polish before the Prussian conquest (i.e. in the times of the Habsburgs in Silesia ) - Polish wikipedia quotes a decree by Frederic the Great which abolishes education in Polish and imposes education in German only instead - there is no mention about it in German or English version of the same article for whatever reason

who called it brutal Poles?

which Poles :P
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

not all sources in the web are English language - not all you can find in Polish wiki is ever mentioned in the German wiki - seems like you are a bit narrowminded
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

5. the building of a church and the appointment of a pastor were a matter of the community, the Prussian state just gave the permission. You think all the Protestant churches which popped up shortly after Prussias takeover were built for fun?

simply wrong it seems - read the discussion in hisorycy.pl which quotes sources
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

....Ja? Also not really successfull, wasn't it? Also it wasn't about the Catholics at all...

there were purely Polish Lutheran parishes around Wrocław that had been affected by the policy - the new pastors limited or excluded service or sermon in Polish after the Union
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

I can tell you the reason, the so called "germanization" by the mean Germans was neither as brutal as polish nationalists like to paint it.

who called it brutal - it was however a consistent deliberate policy with a clear aim (teaching only in German whereas teaching in Polish was present before - seems like the Habsburgs didn't mind their subjects knew little or no German at that time)
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

gumishu:
and what Prussian state actually did was imposing a new lutheran state-run church

No, it wasn't.

sure - read this - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Lutherans
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

Wilno Voivodship in 1931 had a population of 1,276,000 and (according to the Polish government) was 59.7% Polish

and what was the percentage of Lithuanians there?

Zamieszkane było w większości przez Polaków (57,9%) i Białorusinów (25,7%) z niewielką domieszką Rosjan, Litwinów i Karaimów. W miastach (z wyjątkiem Wilna) przeważającą część ludności stanowili Żydzi (8,1%). Co do stosunków wyznaniowych 61,2% było wyznania rzymskokatolickiego, 26,9% prawosławnego, 9,4% mojżeszowego, 2,4% przypada na inne wyznania.

adding up the percentages of Poles, Belarusians and Jews you receive a figure of 91,7 - so there was about 8 per cent Lithuanians living there hardly forming a majority anywhere - you end up with a figure of about 100 000 Lithuanians in Wilno Voivodship then - according to Lithuanian sources the Wilno/Vilnius city itself had 3 per cent of Lithuanian population - and they wanted the city to be the capital of their country - btw there were no mass expulsions of Lithuanians from the area

Not much really. I just find it somewhat amusing that the Polish fleet was sailing in one direction on 1 September and British ships were sailing in exactly the opposite direction but that so many Poles criticise Britain for not doing enough to help Poland.

was British Navy supposed to enter the Baltic?? I don't think so - so the British Navy was not heading the opposite direction really
gumishu   
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]

Education became compulsory (!)

in German - for all including Polish subjects - I don't call that liberal - btw there was some education there before with Polish tutors which the decree of Frederic the Great clearly states -

it's interesting you object to the idea of deliberate germanization policy of the Prussian state (against obviosity and sources)

there was enough freedom of religion in Silesia before the Prussian conquest and what Prussian state actually did was imposing a new lutheran state-run church (in some places Old-Lutheran church remained which did not pursue any germanization policy) - you can read about it here for example (you need to read through the discussion)

historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=48263
btw Poles were the majority in many areas of Lower Silesia in 1764
gumishu   
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

Requiring Polish language on all levels of administration and education could be one of such means (don't know if that was actually the case).

there was little to none state-run education in Poland at that time