Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
"Talmud" literally means "studying" or "study".
The Babylonian talmud?
"Talmud" literally means "studying" or "study".
Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
So you say. Jews were either expelled, left, or forced to convert--or murdered if they refused to do the first three.
To further muddy the waters the latest research carried out on these and other records relating to the periods of reconquesta and the alleged mass expulsion of jews pretty much points to it being more of a tiny trickle of jews leaving Spain permenantly...
So you say. Jews were either expelled, left, or forced to convert--or murdered if they refused to do the first three.
Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
I referenced Nehemiah Gordon. I'm not doing your talmud for you.
I referenced Nehemiah Gordon. I'm not doing your talmud for you.
Nickidewbear
19 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
Not really. Former P'rushi, now-Karaite Nehemia Gordon examines this very well.
Not really. Former P'rushi, now-Karaite Nehemia Gordon examines this very well.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
There were names with Soto in them and Soto separately. Thank you for your help. PS To everyone else here (with few exceptions, like jasondmzk); think me as crazy as you want, etc., but I least I did my research and know my history. To the exceptions, thank you for not resorting to flank attacks, etc.. As for everyone else again, look at Patrycja's link: you'll find "Soto", "Rojo", "Negro", and variants thereof.
There were names with Soto in them and Soto separately. Thank you for your help. PS To everyone else here (with few exceptions, like jasondmzk); think me as crazy as you want, etc., but I least I did my research and know my history. To the exceptions, thank you for not resorting to flank attacks, etc.. As for everyone else again, look at Patrycja's link: you'll find "Soto", "Rojo", "Negro", and variants thereof.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Thank you for the compliment; and maybe I was too quick to judge: maybe you trying to be fair. I understand that accepting that "Czarnecki" may have been "Czarnegaje" and, before that, "Sotosnegros" may be hard; but I'm not just pulling these theories out of my head and/or my butt.
edit:
Look; records were destroyed in the Crusades and Inquisition, and that inspired destruction of some records during the Holocaust. However, as JewFAQ notes, "they carefully preserved synagogue records of births, deaths and marriages back to the 1840s... so they could identify Jews for extermination." Nonetheless, they destroyed what records they destroyed along with towns, etc., or weren't saving for their horrendous museum of the to-be-wiped-out Jewish population--as though they could and would wipe us out! The Spanish and others weren't as interested in having a "Museum Of An Extinct Race" during the Inquisition and Crusades.
Thank you for the compliment; and maybe I was too quick to judge: maybe you trying to be fair. I understand that accepting that "Czarnecki" may have been "Czarnegaje" and, before that, "Sotosnegros" may be hard; but I'm not just pulling these theories out of my head and/or my butt.
edit:
Look; records were destroyed in the Crusades and Inquisition, and that inspired destruction of some records during the Holocaust. However, as JewFAQ notes, "they carefully preserved synagogue records of births, deaths and marriages back to the 1840s... so they could identify Jews for extermination." Nonetheless, they destroyed what records they destroyed along with towns, etc., or weren't saving for their horrendous museum of the to-be-wiped-out Jewish population--as though they could and would wipe us out! The Spanish and others weren't as interested in having a "Museum Of An Extinct Race" during the Inquisition and Crusades.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
You're twisting what I said and what she said, and even what About.com's expert said. This is more than about agreeing to disagree, and you're not trying to be fair. You clearly, so to speak, have a dog in the fight. I know that the idea that a supposedly-inherently-Polish surname is actually Sephardic Jewish and Spanish in origin is not a popular idea, but I couldn't care less about being popular. I'm not popular among my own family, and I was stupid to expect that most people would find me likable here--especially because I, so to speak, bust the can open on a lot of things and am not in anyone's box in one or any other way.
You're twisting what I said and what she said, and even what About.com's expert said. This is more than about agreeing to disagree, and you're not trying to be fair. You clearly, so to speak, have a dog in the fight. I know that the idea that a supposedly-inherently-Polish surname is actually Sephardic Jewish and Spanish in origin is not a popular idea, but I couldn't care less about being popular. I'm not popular among my own family, and I was stupid to expect that most people would find me likable here--especially because I, so to speak, bust the can open on a lot of things and am not in anyone's box in one or any other way.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I'm not worried about what the majority who go to do evil think. And by delegitimizing one aspect of the Inquisition--e.g., the record destruction--, you delegitimize the whole of what happened: the Spaniards were out to destroy especially any Jews who weren't or who they didn't think were true Catholics, and thus looked to destroy any evidence--including records--of their existence; and Magdalena delegitimized that. Just because she doesn't like that records with names like "Sotosnegros" and "Sotosrojos" may well have once existed doesn't mean that the Spanish didn't destroy records--which may well have had names like "Sotosnegros" written on them.
I'm not worried about what the majority who go to do evil think. And by delegitimizing one aspect of the Inquisition--e.g., the record destruction--, you delegitimize the whole of what happened: the Spaniards were out to destroy especially any Jews who weren't or who they didn't think were true Catholics, and thus looked to destroy any evidence--including records--of their existence; and Magdalena delegitimized that. Just because she doesn't like that records with names like "Sotosnegros" and "Sotosrojos" may well have once existed doesn't mean that the Spanish didn't destroy records--which may well have had names like "Sotosnegros" written on them.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
You can say that I'm being offensive all that you want, but I already told you that I have no opposition to her disagreement except that she delegitimizes the Inquisition by legitimizing an aspect of it. Also, you never addressed what delphadomine and jon357 did.
[Patrycja19]
just seems like you would get more of a answer to your request from a site that deals with jewish surnames Vs Polish forum, not that
there wouldnt be someone who would come along and answer this question eventually, but I think you will have more sucess/less stress
on the subject.[/quote]
I've seen what they said, but keep in mind that many Jews adopted and even created Polish (Polish-Jewish) surnames.
You can say that I'm being offensive all that you want, but I already told you that I have no opposition to her disagreement except that she delegitimizes the Inquisition by legitimizing an aspect of it. Also, you never addressed what delphadomine and jon357 did.
[Patrycja19]
Nickidewbear: I frequent JewishGen,
just seems like you would get more of a answer to your request from a site that deals with jewish surnames Vs Polish forum, not that
there wouldnt be someone who would come along and answer this question eventually, but I think you will have more sucess/less stress
on the subject.[/quote]
I've seen what they said, but keep in mind that many Jews adopted and even created Polish (Polish-Jewish) surnames.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
As I said, I have no opposition to her disagreeing. Delegitimization of the Inquisition is what I have a problem with.
I am not hijacking, and you can see that the mods support them and not me. I can't even bring up that names like "Sotonegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may well have been in destroyed records or become names like "Czarnegaje" and, in turn, "Czarnecki" (for "Czarnegaje", "Sotosnegros") and "Czerwiński" without getting told that know such records existed, that I even lie about my own family, etc..
Nickidewbear: Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?
I frequent JewishGen, but thank you for your suggestion.
As I said, I have no opposition to her disagreeing. Delegitimization of the Inquisition is what I have a problem with.
Example: talking about highjacking a thread which is what you are doing as well
I am not hijacking, and you can see that the mods support them and not me. I can't even bring up that names like "Sotonegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may well have been in destroyed records or become names like "Czarnegaje" and, in turn, "Czarnecki" (for "Czarnegaje", "Sotosnegros") and "Czerwiński" without getting told that know such records existed, that I even lie about my own family, etc..
Nickidewbear: Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname?
I frequent JewishGen, but thank you for your suggestion.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I did. I have no opposition to her disagreeing with me, but to her delegitimization of the Inquisition.
I did. I have no opposition to her disagreeing with me, but to her delegitimization of the Inquisition.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
They don't consider Karaite Judaism to be Jewish/Hebrew, so they don't mention it.
I didn't say that Karaism is Messianic; but in terms of Non-Messianic or Pre-Jesus Judaism, it is the Judaism of the Bible.
They don't consider Karaite Judaism to be Jewish/Hebrew, so they don't mention it.
I didn't say that Karaism is Messianic; but in terms of Non-Messianic or Pre-Jesus Judaism, it is the Judaism of the Bible.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Yes, I did; and it only proves my point.
The Spaniards would've absolutely wiped out of existence and memory and Jew who refused to convert to Catholicism because they didn't want known that Non-Catholic (in their eyes, Non-Christian) Jews. And they sure had time for the murderous Inquisition, didn't they?
And Magdalena did hijack the thread with others (e.g., delphiadomine). The point of this thread was that "Sotosnegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may be the perhaps-no-longer-existant surnames that became "Czarnecki", "Czerwiński", etc.. when Sephardic Jews from Iberia and other places (even Italy, who approved and had forms of the Inquisition) fled into Poland (perhaps even as far back as the Crusades).
Yes, I did; and it only proves my point.
By suggesting that the Spaniards wouldn't have dared to try to wipe out the records of the very people that they wanted to wipe out of existence
The Spaniards would've absolutely wiped out of existence and memory and Jew who refused to convert to Catholicism because they didn't want known that Non-Catholic (in their eyes, Non-Christian) Jews. And they sure had time for the murderous Inquisition, didn't they?
And Magdalena did hijack the thread with others (e.g., delphiadomine). The point of this thread was that "Sotosnegros", "Sotosrojos", etc. may be the perhaps-no-longer-existant surnames that became "Czarnecki", "Czerwiński", etc.. when Sephardic Jews from Iberia and other places (even Italy, who approved and had forms of the Inquisition) fled into Poland (perhaps even as far back as the Crusades).
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
He is P'rushi clergyman. As I said, P'rushi Judaism is not of the Bible. Karaite Judaism is.
He is P'rushi clergyman. As I said, P'rushi Judaism is not of the Bible. Karaite Judaism is.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I did read it and that's why I got so angry about it. She said that the surnames never existed. I asked her how she knew and pointed out that records which could've testified to the existence of those surnames may well have been destroyed. She said that there weren't even any records, thus delegitimizing that the Spanish would wipe out any records of any people whom they wanted to destroy.
I did read it and that's why I got so angry about it. She said that the surnames never existed. I asked her how she knew and pointed out that records which could've testified to the existence of those surnames may well have been destroyed. She said that there weren't even any records, thus delegitimizing that the Spanish would wipe out any records of any people whom they wanted to destroy.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
Yes and no. Karaite Judaism is; P'rushi Judaism is not.
Is Judaism the religion of the Hebrew Bible?
Yes and no. Karaite Judaism is; P'rushi Judaism is not.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Did you read delphadomine's claims about me, etc.; Magdalena's delegitimizations of the Inquisition, etc.; and all their claiming that I'm just a troll, etc.?
Nickidewbear,I wouldn't say they hijacked your thread because for the most part it stayed on topic.Disagreeing with you is not hijacking a thread,if your going to make the claim you have,people are going to debate it.
Did you read delphadomine's claims about me, etc.; Magdalena's delegitimizations of the Inquisition, etc.; and all their claiming that I'm just a troll, etc.?
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
"Anti Semitic" refers specifically to being maliciously against the Jews, a Semitic people, as an ethnic and/or religious group.
"Anti Semitic" refers specifically to being maliciously against the Jews, a Semitic people, as an ethnic and/or religious group.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Not all of them, but the only Spaniards who would've fled into Poland (and I didn't even think about the Mohammedians and Protestants; but besides Mohammedians and Protestants--though I doubt that many of them would've fled into Poland--the only ones who'd've fled into Poland) with names like "Sotos", etc. are Sephardic Jews fleeing the Inquisition or perhaps even the fall of Constantinople.
The Inquisition didn't begin fully until 1492, and some escaped the Inquisition.
So, are you going to examine the Blacks, Blackwoods, Blackgroves and Redgroves next? It's exactly the same story, isn't it? Aren't they all Spanish Jews who emigrated to the UK/US via Poland?
Not all of them, but the only Spaniards who would've fled into Poland (and I didn't even think about the Mohammedians and Protestants; but besides Mohammedians and Protestants--though I doubt that many of them would've fled into Poland--the only ones who'd've fled into Poland) with names like "Sotos", etc. are Sephardic Jews fleeing the Inquisition or perhaps even the fall of Constantinople.
Nickidewbear: The Spaniards wouldn't have wanted proof that Jews who didn't believe in Jesus were ever in existence in Spain.
If that is so, why do all know about medieval Spanish Jews and admire their huge achievements? I'm serious.
If that is so, why do all know about medieval Spanish Jews and admire their huge achievements? I'm serious.
The Inquisition didn't begin fully until 1492, and some escaped the Inquisition.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I stated only that "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed."
I explained that they could be Polonized bastardizations of Spanish surnames:
Magdalena: ...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)
but since all the records were destroyed, you have none whatever evidence that it wasn't so, do you? :)
but since all the records were destroyed, you have none whatever evidence that it wasn't so, do you? :)
I stated only that "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed."
On what linguistic grounds? None, since you are indeed fantasising about all this.
They are not Spanish names and there is no reason to think they are.
They are not Spanish names and there is no reason to think they are.
I explained that they could be Polonized bastardizations of Spanish surnames:
"Soto Name Meaninghabitational name from any of numerous places named Soto or El Soto, from soto 'grove', 'small wood' (Latin saltus).Castilianized spelling of Asturian-Leonese Sotu, a habitational name from a town so named in Asturies.Castilianized spelling of the Galician equivalent, Souto."
(Plural is Sotos)
Soto --> zagajnik --> shrubbery
Sotos --> gaje --> groves
But hang on...
saltus --> las --> forest
Czarnecki:
Czarnecki Name MeaningPolish and Jewish (from Poland): habitational name for someone from a place called Czarnca in Kielce voivodeship, or any of the various places called Czarnocin or Czarnia, all named with Polish czarny 'black'.
"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being forests with a name such is, e.g., Sotos Negros (Czarne Gaje).
(Plural is Sotos)
Soto --> zagajnik --> shrubbery
Sotos --> gaje --> groves
But hang on...
saltus --> las --> forest
Czarnecki:
Czarnecki Name MeaningPolish and Jewish (from Poland): habitational name for someone from a place called Czarnca in Kielce voivodeship, or any of the various places called Czarnocin or Czarnia, all named with Polish czarny 'black'.
"Czarnecki" thus could've come from "Sotos" in terms of there being forests with a name such is, e.g., Sotos Negros (Czarne Gaje).
czerwien --> red of -->rojo de
This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up, or she just confused "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" when she typed for About.com. Humans are imperfect.
This is a case where "rojo" may have somehow sounded like "soto" and gotten mixed up, or she just confused "Czarnecki" and "Czerwiński" when she typed for About.com. Humans are imperfect.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
And you know this because? Whole families were murdered and had evidence of their existence destroyed in the Crusades, Inquisition, etc..
...because it's very extremely improbable...? ;-)
And you know this because? Whole families were murdered and had evidence of their existence destroyed in the Crusades, Inquisition, etc..
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Again, you know that because? As I stated, "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed." I also beforehand stated, "I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language." I further stated, "As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos ******" and could've been confused as "Rojos ******" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames."
Again, you know that because? As I stated, "It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed." I also beforehand stated, "I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language." I further stated, "As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos ******" and could've been confused as "Rojos ******" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames."
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
History / Poland and Polish Anti-Semitism, c. 1918-1939 [148]
Any malice (whether unintentional and misguided, or deliberate malice) against the Jews as an ethnic people, religious group, etc.
Any malice (whether unintentional and misguided, or deliberate malice) against the Jews as an ethnic people, religious group, etc.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
The problem is that you think that I'm suggesting that the Poles or only the Poles caused a possible bastardization of "Sotosrojos", "Sotosnegros", etc.. As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames.
The problem is that you think that I'm suggesting that the Poles or only the Poles caused a possible bastardization of "Sotosrojos", "Sotosnegros", etc.. As I said, "I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos"." They could've been trying to come up with different or new surnames.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language.
It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed.
Indeed. It's about a rather wild claim that Czarnecki, Czerwiński etc are in fact Spanish.
I'm saying that they could've been Polonized forms, and surnames sometimes just fade out of existence or forever become part of another language.
Sotosnegros and Sotosrojos have exactly 0 Google hits. I just checked. Are you implying that ALL the bearers of these hypothetical surnames left for Poland, and ALL subsequently had their surnames "polonised"?
It's very possible that all the surname bearers could've left or even been murdered in the Inquisition or even as far back as the Crusades, etc.; and had their records destroyed.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
Looks can be deceiving, and that's not what this thread is about.
Yeah, I don't like that part either. They couldn't have all been that bad. They look pleasant enough in the photos Nicole posted (not that I really endorse publishing pictures of your relatives online).
Looks can be deceiving, and that's not what this thread is about.
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos".
I'm simply saying that "Czarne Gaje" could've been "Sotos Negros" and could've been confused as "Rojos Negros" (Hence, Czerwinski). The corruption could've even been deliberate on the part of non-native speakers who were looking to Polonize last names such as "Sotosnegros", "Rojosnegros", and "Sotosrojos".
Nickidewbear
18 Jul 2012
Genealogy / Is Czarnecki Really A Polish Or Actually A Sephardic Jewish Surname? [110]
And how come it wouldn't if it allows for place and other names such as:
and
?
Various formats and corruptions can happen in any language.
Facts: there are no Czarnecki and / or Czerwiński place names in Spain.
And how come it wouldn't if it allows for place and other names such as:
Czernacze...Czarnca..Carncza... Czarcza...Czarnnecz... Carncza...Czarnca
and
Czarna Rzeka
?
Various formats and corruptions can happen in any language.