USA, Canada / Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches. [99]


No but I wouldn't expect a modern person to believe crass fascist propaganda. A lot of Priests were murdered by the fascists, a lot of devout Catholics who believed in equality were murdered by the fascists. The killing went on after the war and cannot be explained away as self defence.

The Democratic government was not a rabid mob any more than the black liberation movement was a black lynch mob yet both are painted as communist terrorists.

USA, Canada / Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches. [99]

The Catholic hierarchy approved of the murder of hundreds of thousands of people including many after the war. If you want a silly body count comparison the fascists against democracy win that one big time.

USA, Canada / Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches. [99]


That sounds like you are trying to justify one side over the other. The fact is that the general slaughter unleashed by the traitorous coup leaders far outstrips anything the government side did.

The international brigades were not communist guerirllas though kudos for recognising the meaning and source of guerrilla.

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How did you know I had given up the evil weed in a vain attempt to extend this misery for another few years ;)

USA, Canada / Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches. [99]


Yeah I was reading about Miguel de Unamuno during the week when the Fascist traitor Astray shouted


Unamuno was a conservative Catholic theologian no friend of the legitimate democratic government, he responded


The Fascist traitors persecuted the church just like Hitler and other despots.

Anti-clericalism is not a straight left right thing Palikot the Polish tea party don't like the church Stalin didn't like the Church.

Edit


Franco was a Spanish traitor who introduced fascism into Spain

USA, Canada / Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches. [99]


And some states have state religions and task army officers to impose sectarian laws which they willingly did

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


I'm not changing my point I made an error the point still stands.
Tax systems are not unrelated to disposable income and they should be based on an ability to pay. When they are not based on ability to pay they are regressive as there is no disposable income.

I have not changed the definition of anything


Source
forbes.com/sites/leonardburman/2011/10/24/what-is-a-flat-tax-surprise-it-is-a-vat

Obviously people should be rewarded for many things hard work being one nobody is suggesting that a doctor should earn the same as a builder despite the fact that the Doctor benefited from pubic ally subsidised higher education paid for from the builder's wages.

A living wage for all is slightly more important than a tax cut for the rich, does Palikot have anything to say about that?


You accused me of changing the value on the axis when I had not now you are doing that. A flat tax gives a flat line that's why it's called a flat tax just as I said above

It's not an arbitrary plot, a percentage or a fixed amount against income is a flat line the amount of income generated is a different story.

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


Yes, I was inaccurate in the language I used


I meant the amount of disposable income available increases as your wealth increases and the tax burden also decreases. I did make a mistake there using the wrong words but the theory is sound.


See above, disposable income rises with wealth and the ability to pay the tax becomes easier under any form of flat tax that makes them regressive.


Both are flat taxes, both produce flat line graphs when measured against any variable because they are fixed, one a fixed percentage the other a fixed value. Both are regressive taxes.

The rest is just straight tea party stuff think that way if you want but remember that in the end it's always the public sector that bails out the private sector.

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

I understand it involves numbers

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

Brilliant!!

So it's only you who wishes to throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work

Can you give a brief outline of how Palikot would create a few hundred thousand jobs?

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


Do you think Palikot are proposing to make hundreds of thousands unemployed?
That is not exactly liberal is it

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


Which bureaucrats? Where should these people and associated families look for work?


I didn't realise that I couldn't comment on Poland, does your new rule apply to you? At what distance from your home does your opinion become worthless?

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


I had been talking about Zus earlier before the discussion became stuck on flat tax, the topic is not about me or you it's about whether that movement is too liberal for Poland.

As explained earlier the regressive tax system would be a disaster where the burden on ordinary people would be disproportionate. The social security system like most in the world does need a degree of reform Palikot's proposals have not been costed and as usual calling for a tax cut for the middle class (effectively a subsidy) is no solution, the state will have to pick up the bill for the shortfall.

We discussed this and only jkb answered he suggested to shrink the state but didn't indicate who should be made unemployed.

Now Harry do you have anything to add for example who do you think should be made unemployed?

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The last exchange was about flat rate income tax which went over your head. Flat rate poll tax is a different matter and is a fixed universal charge.

For the benefit of the slow here we go again.....

If you plot either against income or any other variable they produce a flat line graph that is basic maths and is why they are flat taxes. Wiki produced a definition of flat rate tax because that is what the debate in the US is about a quick look at any academic papers (linked above) shows that fixed tax like the poll tax is also a flat tax and is described as such in the literature.

In Britain they introduced a poll tax and it was a disaster pointing this out is a normal thing to do unless you have suddenly become chief censor. You already tried maliciously editing my posts now you are not even attempting to justify your madness.

Why do you insist in dragging things off topic?

It's not my fault that you give the impression of being innumerate.

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Sometimes typos result in unconscious humour....


The rate at which you are taxed is fixed meaning that as your wealth increases the proportion of your income that you pay as tax falls. The rate stays fixed but the proportion falls what is so hard to understand?


Yes it does page 5 it is stated clearly.


It's regressive because as income increases the proportion of income paid as tax falls.

Perhaps it's a language thing or possibly you are a humanities graduate.


The tax rate is the same that is why it's a flat tax, the rate does not change. (For you as well) perhaps it's a language thing or possibly you are a humanities graduate.


The rate like the song remains the same the amount paid changes.

I told you to be careful Harry there were numbers involved.

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Really!!!
OK this is boring and not really relevant but here goes.


Both (poll and flat rate income tax) are flat taxes they plot flat lines just draw it out if you can't imagine it. You have one variable and a fixed value it doesn't matter what changes in the variable or what variable you use the rate or fixed cost stays the same ie a flat line.


No, the tax rate is the same, remember it's a fixed rate, the proportion of your income that you pay in tax falls as your income rises. Plotting one variable against a fixed value always plots a straight line


The amount changes the rate stays the same

Any serious article or report (see links above) describes the poll tax as a flat tax. But I suppose if its not in wiki it must be wrong.

All flat taxes are regressive they are a very easy sell that's why some people like them. Of course the actual amount people pay depends upon the form the regressive tax takes and exactly which tax is to be reformed something the vanity movement haven't made clear. Where these proposals have been made, when costed, the results always show an increased tax burden on the average person.

Edit


Care to demonstrate how I'm wrong Harry? Now you will have to be careful as there are numbers involved.

Is it not true that all the migrants for example went to Poland for no other reason than to pay taxes to help Poland?


The dear leader certainly made use of tax havens, perhaps some sensible reforms are required plus a crackdown on white collar crime. That's probably better than waving a dildo about.

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Some basic maths may be in order here rather than google or wiki.

A flat or fixed tax is a tax that remains the same for everyone, regardless of income and other factors, it plots a flat line.

The tax is "flat" because it can be graphed against any other factor and still result in a flat line, meaning that the revenue generated doesn't vary with the person's budgetary situation.

The name depends on what is being taxed, flat rate applies to income and poll tax (in the UK example) applies to property. Still, the two types of taxes are both flat in that they are applied equally to people regardless of their income level.


I understand the concept fairly well

This however is getting away from the topic which is Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland?
So far we have tea baggers who want to do that usual crazy stuff with little regard for costing or sensible reforming of the tax and social security system, they want to tax the poor to pay for the rich throwing out the concept of ability to pay.

The pantomime stuff just gives an illusion of liberty when the economic craziness will prevent any true liberty.


And you have zero sense of humour:)


Shawn read these links:
scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=flat+tax+vs+poll+tax&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=


I'm just correct

Read this
ntj.tax.org/wwtax/ntjrec.nsf/0/e305afecd2f4d7028525686c00686d48/$FILE/v44n4421.pdf
or just read page 5

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Would you like to explain to me what a flat tax is as opposed to a flat tax rate and why its called a flat tax?


Another cliche Delph

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


I know exactly what a flat tax is it's your reliance on wiki or google that has led you and others astray.

Now for the rest of your post I don't care if this movement is left or right wing (I knew it was solidly right because of the policies) what I found amusing was the insistence that they were left wing because of the stunts or because they are anti church for example, that is a childish reading of political posturing last seen in the sixth form.

I am numerate and know what a flat rate is and am literate enough to know that it's still unfair. Introducing a flat rate will mean either a tax cut for the rich or a tax rise for the poor neither of which are good.


First of all who is this we, I thought I was responding to an individual not a committee, Delph spouted cliches you described my answer as rubbish then agreed with it I find "They are going to fix the economy" and "They are good for business" are cliches, Delph used both with nothing to support them.


No big government and so on, the same Tea party stuff that's grand think that stuff its just fine until you need bailed out or get sick and so on.


That is grand in theory just like comparing a countries economy to a shop in practice its very different.


That is a flat rate tax not a flat tax which when drawn will produce a flat line meaning that the money paid doesn't change with income. The graph is a flat line that is why it's called a flat tax


It proves that you dont know what a flat tax is.

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


Everyone pays the same a flat tax the poll tax.

Edit


It's called flat because it produces a flat line graph when drawn, change any other variable and it still gives a flat line

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


Delph a poll tax is a flat tax

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


The man is a clown using all sorts of issues to disguise his rabid economics that will do nothing but effectively disenfranchise people. The self appointed elite lap that stuff up because they are so sophisticated leading the masses in the correct direction.


I have read extensively in this area what would you recommend?
Thinking that tax cuts for the rich generate tax revenue is infantile. The neo cons beloved laughable curve? Ah man you got to be kidding, the tax revenue generated by a classic flat tax falls as soon as it is introduced, it doesn't pick up later it just falls.

It's fundamentally unfair as tax should be based upon the principal of ability to pay, in Britain they had a flat tax called the poll tax that didn't end well. A millionaire paying the same rate as a cleaner is clearly unfair.


This is like discussing with a Tweenie, the same thing as yesterday......every political party presents its self as good for both business and worker, again its a cliche used by those devoid of ideas.

In short this vanity project wants to cut taxes for the rich, privatise social security yet subsidise the rich through government spending and removing ZUS oh and flash dildos and give condoms away.

Privatising Pensions is a mad policy the state ends up paying for the shortfall

You have explained the exact Tea party policies of this project but at least you knew it was a right wing thing.


Because I am in awe of those who selflessly went to Poland to help and clearly don't mind paying as much tax as possible in order to do so.

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There is not a pension system in the world that doesn't need reformed its a big world wide story.

Cutting ZUS or providing a payment holiday is not the way to reform it especially as the flat tax rate cannot make up the difference or allow the tax break to be clawed back later. That would leave a huge hole in their budget.

Leaving first line pension provision in the hands of the individual is a risky proposition (for the individual and most probably the state) and the first step on a very slippery slope.

Edit


Indeed it is especially since the proposals of the vanity movement are not costed and as usual the state would end up subsidising the selfish.

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

I'm glad that there are no serious parties effectively proposing to privatise pensions.

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

More cliches, can you name a political party anywhere that doesn't say the same thing?

News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]


What this movement is proposing is nonsense. It doesn't matter how many free condoms are distributed or how many people are shocked at the sight of a dildo the fact remains that without any chance of progression people will be left to stagnate while the rich get richer.

The idea that a flat tax rate will somehow generate more tax income is a fantasy and it is also fundamentally unfair. Where the one time trick of deregulation has been used there is no longer a panacea other than tax cuts for the rich and that is exactly what a flat tax is.

The crazy economics coming from Chicago have been thoroughly discredited. The idea of trickle down has been thoroughly discredited (clue was in the name) the economics of privatise profit nationalise debt is toxic for society, doesn't matter how many tax havens you invent or use people will not move socially.

Tea party economics benefit the rich not the common person.

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How will introducing a flat tax rate help Poland and save the economy? How will using Tax havens help Poland? How do Tax havens help anyone other than criminals and those wishing to either avoid tax or evade tax?

Its fundamentally unfair and typical Tea party stuff

The movement is a joke, conning people with apparently liberal sounding policies while removing the possibility of real change, it's the politics of the class room.


There is a certain self appointed urban elite who through the years have demonstrated their willingness to embrace any apparently radical view in an attempt to appear progressive.

There are only so many coffee mornings one can attend before disillusionment set in and its on to the next big thing.

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I know it's obvious but you described it as rubbish above.


I do they are offering a disaster for Poland but thankfully vanity projects everywhere have a history of collapsing.


They got 10% of the vote 90% rejected them, are you confusing the total electorate with those who voted?

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This is true my point however is that if you don't recognise an obvious cliche like promising to "fix the economy" any political discussion would quickly end. There is not much to comment on in his programme except the usual tea party stuff all dressed up with a bit of theatrics.


Yeah the guy is a publicity junky


Do you know why 90% of the voters rejected them? Would it have anything to do with their mad right wing policies?

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Everyone stands in election to "fix the economy" no one stands on a platform to wreck the economy it's a cliche. If you don't understand that you have no business discussing politics. But then someone who would vote for a whole new movement coincidently named after the leader and thinks it was a liberating vote is beyond redemption.