History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Same goes for Inflanty - I would be proud if Królewiec was a Polish city, but Kaliningrad? AIDS and rusty missiles...

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

no, what you would say. now you say, 'Poland doesn't give a jot'.
Would you be more happy if we were aggressive?
Would you be more happy if Poland claimed the territorial losses when the USSR was falling apart? It's legal to do it, in such a case, OUN would agree.

We have NOT.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

If we gave less than a jot and actually tried to have it, imagine what you would say then, Seanus...

Can't make everybody happy. Oh, well.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

I don't think that the forum Ukrainians understand that Poland is no threat to them.

The same as talking to BB on one occasion, I understand that you have a different point of view and different values. You subscribe to a nationalistic idea of pure nation. But you don't give the same to me. I have opinions. I subscribe to civillian idea of a state based on sitizenship. Res Publica Regni Poloniae, with a life long presidency called Kingship.

From your point of view, and I've given you tthat, you were fighting to separate us from you. From the nationalistic point of view, the blood lines of people who live in Ukraine and call themselves Ukrainian are local, therefore to you it means 'years of Ukraine'.

From my point of view, the Republic is a value in itself, and all the nations that form parts of it are citizens. (Yes, Jews, too). From my point of view, Tatars are not local - but they are citizens, so they are Poles. From that point of view, there are no thousands of years of Ukraine, but of Ukrainians. And Poles, and yes, there were German tribes, Celtic tribes, Goth tribes, you name it. Hungarians, wandering Scandinavians, etc, because we have no natural borders. And Germans were good citizens, good tradesmen.

So when I give you my understanding, I also tell you what my point of view is. I want your understanding. There was a common value that everybody except the Ukrainians and the Jews in Socialist Party fought for. It was the return of the Republican Kingdom (which Pilsudski, the old Socialist, illegally changed into a Democracy).

I believe that if your, Ukrainian, national process had taken part in a different time, you would be able to just sign out of the Union (not that we would be happy, we would have made obstacles, of course). But it was the war, and you were too savage to slow yourself down.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Nathan, you blood thirsty Ukrainian... You didn't even read the text. I meant the WAR was a defining experience, not Ukrainian barbaric butchery. You're flattering yourself.

What you don't seem to put in this picture at all, is that we don't think in the nationalistic category all that much. I know that you and Germans do, but a Pole is someone who speaks Polish - that includes me. My Gran's surname was Hajdul - I don;t think it's all that Polish, but I am welcome to be one. (BTW - so are you. If you live in a part of Ukraine that was once Poland, you claim our citizenship through ancestry).

We are ruled by an idea, a dream. Poland is always there, even if she's not physically there - understand? Poland is a borderland country, mixed origins, mixed traditions, plus Latin Republican and Greek influence. We love it this way.

To us, the national processes meant that all the various local tribes, Mazovians, Lemkos, Germans even, could stay in the countryside or sign up for the Common Thing, Res Publica.

What you have done in Ukraine was to sign out of the Common Thing for a separate national interest. It's like separating a part of Canada or US on the basis that a majority of, say, Puerto-Ricans live there.

Or like separating Kosovo from Serbia on the basis that Albanians live there, incidentally.

Nation should not matter, citizenship matters for us. Nations always lead to wars, or at least to football, which stinks.

So when you are saying that Ukrainians were suffering for the Kingdom to rise back from the ashes - you should have suffered more. You should have made sacrifices like the children in Warsaw Uprising. You would have now belonged to what will be made beautiful again. But you sided with the Devil, and the Devil, Stalin, had starved you to death.

I pity you.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

Uff, thanks for having a mature discussion.

The 'from here' is not about patronizing someone, this is what people anywhere in the world call themselves before the modernist idea of nationality is popularized. Before nationalities there were villages, communities, Kings to identify oneself with. That's all I was saying.

In Poland it was this way until the war, there were villages where people didn't say 'we're Polish', they would say, 'we're local'. 'tutejsi'.

I really am not being patronizing, I am talking about the victims and the grief, not about being 'better'. Not sure why another nation seems to think we are cold, patronizing, aloof and other things. It's really simple - we are both proud and shy, not: feeling better, simply feeling not at home. That really is all.

Thanks for being so welcoming.

History / The Gustloff - one of the worst maritime disasters that seemed to never have happened [66]

I heard about it, it was mentioned in one of the major weeklies ten years ago, maybe it was an anniversary? I think it was Wprost.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

aphrodisiac


I even worded it above. It's a forum, so let's rant. I don't believe for a second that any of this bone rattling is important now for reasons other that historical. At the moment we have lost Lwów, and it is not going to be ours - like Stettin is lost to the Germans (but not Wrocław or Gdańsk). Moving the borders back would be extremely costly, in money or maybe even in blood. So the free border movement is a good thing about the EU (while it being a communist one party scam is bad). I may BUY back the house where my grans were born (not receive back like Germans or Jews. I will BUY)

But there is one reason for which it's important to stick to the facts: facts are important in themselves, otherwise we end up with a Ministry of truth.

So: don't exaggerate by saying that Poles were oppressors which is proven by slaying Poles. German Nazis proved that Poles were slaves by slaying Poles. We were and are neither of those things.

Now - did I try to pretend that Poland did not take down Churches, interfere with religion, ignore Ukrainian language? NOT. I said that was a wrong and stupid thing to do, though the leaders of the time thought it a good stratagem in the Russian conflict. But - to hack families to pieces??? UPA were as barking mad as Dirlewanger.

What I told you in November: at the time you were gaining a national Conscience, where you thought about yourselves as Ukrainians, instead as 'from here'. So did majority of Poles. This was a defining experience for a lot of people. I understand a lot of what happened, and that we stood in your way to your own identity. You have been aggressive. (I'm assuming you're Ukrainian from previous comments). And that's fine, this is not a peaceful land, there had been wars before. But to hack families to pieces???

There is also the thing of Soviet regime, you were on the red side, and some red officials in Poland post war were Ukrainian criminals, as well as Jewish criminals. We were ruled by murderers and there was not much to be done about it since Jarulzelski himself hunted AK guys in the forests...

So, the state of today - the borders are coming down, trips are going abroad to see Ukraine, it's pretty. I may buy property there. I hope you welcome my money.

Life / Polish "Mall Girl" Culture? [125]

no, if we had communism we would live in farms, ride common busses, eat in common cantines. instead we had Fiat and Polonez cars, lived in apartments and cooked at home. farmers were not collectivized, but farmed their own and even had grocery stalls.

It's right about the socialism in the west. Look at Royal Mail for example, it is as bad or worse as Poczta Polska has ever been. And the France Telecom. When TPSA was Polish it was not THAT crap...

Love / Secret meaning..What does it mean when a polish girl touches her nose? [43]

I don't think it means anything, dear Paranoiac, LOL, we are not a networking culture.

the only explanation there is in common culture is an old proverb;

if your left nose hole itches, you will be angry
if your right hole itches, you will have guests

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

I don't think Poles are trying to choose their heroes. I think Poles are opposing to the particular item, like Steinbach woman. Bandera is a hero for Ukrainian Nazis, and Ukrainian Nazis want to have a place in Ukrainian Politics, too. Steinbach is an important figure for Germans in a TRIFLE similar context. She is leading an organization of Germans loaded on trains and driven to Post War Germany, which is OK, but the dubious part is that her Father was not a citizen in the house she wants back - he was stationed there, after Poles were camped.

See the link here: a Nazi soldier's daughter wants her stationed house restored. Nazi Ukrainians want their hero status restored. That is a bit much...

One more thing that our foreign forumers need to be told, because they are by now likely to be drooling at the picture of Poles as perpetrators: when Germans were driven our of Poland, they were not hacked to pieces but loaded on trains with a one way ticket. Not a fate that Poles got from German or Ukrainian Nazis...

That was not to you, Nathan, but the Westerners who by default think that all is fluent and ev eryone is probably equally quitly.

Life / Polish "Mall Girl" Culture? [125]

oh I think that the researcher has done some great work. she opened our eyes to a social event.

the journalist however is slacking. the views that are being cited are not always put in perspective, which I'm sure dramatizes the thing. But that's the today's journalism.

What I noted out:
- why is church blamed for girls who don't attend it?
- why is every article about Poland mentioning Communism, while we had Socialism???
Communism was only in Russia, but in the satellites only until Stalin dies in '56. And really, for a British or American newspaper to cite Communism is awkward. As all the Forum knows.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

The only reason why they were able to move out was a birth certificate from Warsaw of one of my uncles, where they were for a brief visit. if they lost this paper they were doomed for the east when this area had been split by Stalin and peoples moved. We are lucky to be in Poland

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]


Hajdulowie are hardly peasants. But they married Germans so that might be an explanation.

i have peasants on my maternal side, from Brzeziny near Lodz. And a proud bunch, too. Pecyny were so wealthy that they were buried in glass fitted coffins. My Great-grandmother however married without consent and got no dowry. They moved to Lodz with her poor husband and made a living in the textile factories. And then their daughter married the baddest young rascal on the street, son of a slippermaker. They worked in the former Israel Poznanski factory, today's Manufaktura.

I'm such a mongrel that it makes me immensely proud. All that Polish history all rolled into one.


I don't think we disregard it.

I'm not sure if you are aware but this year there will be huge reconciliatory talks between the Orthodox and Catholic hierarchies. Apparently, when there was a split in ancient history, it was over interpretation of one sentence. I can't quote out of memory. Now the churches found out that they actually MEAN the same interpretations. No split should have even been.

But anyway - Orthodox is also Russian religion, and yes, Polish politics have commited this: closed and took down Orthodox Churches. It was aimed at weakening the hated Russian influence, not Ukrainian, unless Ukrainians were seen as supportive of Russia. That was obviously as stupid as any other example of tearing down somebody's church. It also serves to show that Poland was really in strong conflict with Russia.

What is missing from this however is the effort to bring Orthodox into the Unified Church, Kościół Unicki, and thus from under the Russian influence. Into ours, no doubt. Hopefully into their own, if they can have it. But AWAY FROM RUSSIA.

Tough questions. Do we get Russified or do Ukrainians get Polonized? One of the 'would haves' is what would happen if Constantinopole had still been the head of the Eastern Empire? The two Emperors were never in conflict with each other.

It's better that Ukraine is there, buffering us from Russia. It's worse that they have an unstable government and society. I wish we would trade more, so that they can get rich.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

Ah the Poles, cheap Poles.
It's so firmly beaten into the Islander heads that even if I say i want different cuts of meat, they answer - yes, Poles know what to do with cheaper cuts of meat.

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

not necessarily. everyone knows that the demoralisation was immense. in the 20s and 30s everybody had depression, and pneumonia. the 'spleen'.
that's why the Warsaw Uprising was so incredible - because young blasé students actually got up and became heroes.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


no, BB. not.
but on the other hand, Germans are not likely to make trips to the other side of the stream either. so no need for looking for friends on your other border.

that leaves the question of Mother Russia, and is she or is she not threatened by China and India.

Life / Why Poles are so crazy about their country? [55]

But I like German bread... and Nuernberger Lebkuchen... I just believe after experimenting that ours is the best. I bet that for BB's taste - German is the best.

And I think Lithuanian malt bread is really good, and Czeskie rochliki, etc.

Life / Why Poles are so crazy about their country? [55]

Really? And if the breweries did not believe they were making the best beer in the county, what would be the point of making it at all?

I am entirely at peace with other people saying that their bread is the best.

Life / Why Poles are so crazy about their country? [55]

I hope so, Foreigner - it feels like muck when I'm talking to people who don't love their homes.

At least the Americans understand this. When I was living with a family in Alabama in my senior year, I told them that in Poland we have the best bread. They were happy, they said that it's really good that I love my country.

(at least Dixies do ;)

Life / Why Poles are so crazy about their country? [55]


Hm? I thought it was us? Forever moaning? And you Germans would be happily drinking beer in a beerhouse.

Life / Why Poles are so crazy about their country? [55]

Ziemko - never mind them. I've just learned something very important about the Anglo society. It really is a class society: meaning that normal people just don't give a monkey's arse about what all the self important rude tw*ts say or do.

I think that it's really bad, and rude, and wanted to pay due attention to the tw*ts - but I give up. Waste of breath. They only run their gobs to sound important, that's all.

And about the topic - those good men you say were few. The thing is, they were not few, and their offering was made in the name of all of us, so even the laundress' daughter today lives in her own country.

At least we can say that thanks to the offering of life, and that it was made in all levels of society, we don't have to be rude to tw*ats today.

I wonder how it is in Germany or Czech or Ukraine and Lithuania? Are your normal people ignoring the middle class as best as they can?

jeden

watch out, you'll get lashed for using the word 'normal'.

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

Don't you think that the Order was a common enemy?

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


That's a shame! I like to believe that the Jagiellonian period was very beautiful. Later it was not so great. But I hope you have good thoughts about that one, at least.


Never mind me, it's a uni habit. Always try to impress the promotor. Plus - English really does have all the richness that is not taught at school. Why would I not want it?

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


Sorry, English is my second language, it may come across rather rough. But the effort is all mine, thank you.

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


no, there should be place in the world for a little ancient submergence in the myth. the enlightment was all the hype in 18th century, but that was long ago.

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


I think I mentioned mine before.

Hear me, hear me:

on my Paternal side, the daughters of the Austrian officer and a countess became involved with the regime, one worked in a meat factory as a bookkeeper, and never lacked. One married a Stalinist, and never lacked, one was a Sanitariuszka, married a Partisan and lacked all her life. I'm the Granddaughter of this Partisan, and I choose to be proud of Him, rather than be involved with whatever the rest was up to.

How the F*** can one be an officer's daughter and a f****** Commie???

On my Maternal side, there were farmers and poor city folk, and they were mostly hiding and buying food.

Now - if you don't understand what is the Polish feeling of history all about: we had the choice to make, and some have made the wrong one. They will not be counted among the skulls. None will have a kurhan. As a nation, we have not made the wrong choice, but some among us have. They are traitors or criminals. They should have been given a lamp post of their own. But that's our internal affairs.

I am making a clear statement here. Those who let down their own myth, do not belong to it. So I will not accept the vague statements like 'Poland is guilty of xxx'. She has not abandoned the myth. Now, to say, this or that person was a criminal, is a different matter altogether. Crime is NOT encouraged in this society, and the whole society will not be punished for it by other societies.

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]

Of course not! Germans and Czechs also lay a claim and influenced the mix. In the sixties most places like Zabrze were so intent on belonging to Germany that they only spoke German (even if very badly)

History was easier when there were Kings, and not nations. With the idea of nations came the idea of national land, and the search for proofs.

Take the excavation in Legnica- there was a 2nd century settlement there, and both Poles and Germans claimed the tribe as proof of earliest settlement, which would in the minds of people in the 20s and 30s be a proof of the right to live there (kind of like 'I WAS HERE FIRST! GET BACK IN THE QUEUE!'). In the book 'Polska Piastów' by the famous Paweł Jasienica (a journalist historian of Poland), there is a story of a German Professor saying that the headdresses of the women there were definitely Slavonic, but I can't post it here because I gave the book to my Dad.

So yes, Silesians can be Germans, Poles, Czechs and have family on all sides. (...And I still think it should lay in Poland. The reason is simple - the food is good there. And the church in Nysa is not just any church - it's a coronation church of the Jagiellon. I must keep it as much as the Wrocław Island, the coronation grounds of Popielidzi and probably at least one Piast.)