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Posts by Dirk diggler  

Joined: 9 May 2017 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - B
Last Post: 23 Jun 2022
Threads: Total: 10 / In This Archive: 5
Posts: Total: 4445 / In This Archive: 2479
From: A White Wonderland
Speaks Polish?: Tak
Interests: Professional kebab remover

Displayed posts: 2484 / page 58 of 83
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Dirk diggler   
11 Jan 2018
History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

Idc whether you believe me or not... the point is jews have received far more compensation, media attention, political consideration, etc. than any other group of victims of WW2 despite having the same if not far higher body counts. When's the last time Poles were given $500 mil in just 1 year alone (as in 2015) for their pain and suffering at the hands of Nazi's/soviets? Yet quite a few people on here seem to think Poland has no claim to WW2 reparations from Germany.

Here's one example of a Jew scamming millions of dollars in WW2 reparations - haaretz.com/jewish/news/ringleader-of-57-million-holocaust-survivor-fraud-found-guilty-1.523173
Dirk diggler   
11 Jan 2018
History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

since when were the Jews "perpetrators" of anything during the period of which we're talking other than of trying to survive against nearly insurmountable odds?

Like when they massacred thousands of innocent Persians and to this day celebrate the massacre via Purim?

The Jews were kicked out of over 100 different kingdoms, states, principalities, towns, etc. all over Europe. Poland was their last resort because everyone else got sick of their usury and banished them - including many Polish cities at one point or other. They begged Poland's king to take them, to which he obliged and passed laws banning forced baptism under punishment of death. But of course it's the 100 different European countries faults. The Jews and Poles lived together peacefully until after WW2 when they felt the Poles didn't do enough to protect them from the Nazi invasion and afterward sided with the Russians and imposed a climate of torture, extortion, repression, etc. via zydokomonu after WW2.

Berlin's Holocaust Center on Potsdamer Platz is already one too many

It is. The supposed 6 million have already been honored enough - they've gotten tons of money, books, memorials, their own freaken country as a result, not to mention have been bullying Palestians, committing massacres, bombing unis and hospitals, setting up illegal settlements, etc. ever since. There are more Holocaust claims for monetary compensation than there are victims and that's a fact. Poland, Russia, Germany, France, etc. have not had nearly the same reparations and treatment that the Jews had despite having the same or even far higher victim counts. Israel has had more UN resolutions against it than Cuba and North Korea combined for all the crimes they've committed in Lebanon, Palestine, etc. They've even murdered American sailors. When Obama gave Israel some $10 billion in a very typical response they were upset at their government because they felt they could've gotten more money from the Americans. Time to focus more on the 70+ million others who died during WW2.
Dirk diggler   
11 Jan 2018
History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]

@TheOther

Hell yea id take the gernans over the russians anyday and any polish ww2 survivor will tell you the same. The germans didnt torture average poles with the nearly same veracity as russians. Jews yes absolutely along w roma gypsies etc. Upa was brutal against pl non combatants too. Then again maybe im impartial since according to one side of the family a german low rank officer saved an uncles (grandmas bro) and fam lives against upa (upa lead tge front lines gerries followed). Under stalin they were deported to smolensk then lived in minsk then finally under Khrushchev they made it back.
Dirk diggler   
11 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

Sorry buddy just telling you the reality. Dont take it personally. Youre going to have an extremely difficult time surviving in poland esp with no savings, no skills that set you apart from the others also looking for work, no knowledge of polish, etc. Any job that youll be qualified for will likely go to a ukranian as they already speak polish. And even if you somehow manage to land a job in pl youll make at or slightly abobe min wage of 12.5 zs an hour which is very hard to survive on esp part time
Dirk diggler   
10 Jan 2018
News / Poland's Party of Law and Justice (PiS) reconstruction [38]

They only let Macierewicz go to appease the French since they weren't too happy with the Airbus deal that was cancelled so they made it seem as if it was all Macierewicz. Otherwise PiS coundlt care less. They're just trying to get allies against Germany now which is calling for PL to take in refugees or else have their EU funds cut. Fortunately, Juncker has said that there won't be any threat to the 100 bil PL is to receive up to 2020 regardless of whether they take in migrants or not.
Dirk diggler   
10 Jan 2018
History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

Care to name the other European nations where the Chief Rabbi of the country was attacked in the street?

France has among the highest rates of anti-Semitism in Europe or even the world. Jews are regularly attacked and synagogues vandalized.

Zydokomuna isn't fantasy

No it is not.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lapy_zydowskie.jpeg
Dirk diggler   
10 Jan 2018
Travel / Help with a travel plan to Poland [72]

Although I've never been, what I've seen of Wroclaw from those who send me photos, it's just stunning!@ Lyzko

Next time you're in PL drop me a line and I'll show you some of the local sites. Honestly Wroclaw is good for like 3-4 days of sight seeing at most beyond that there really isn't much. Rynek is absolutely wonderful and has a restaurant that's apparently Europe's oldest and dates to the early 1200's. All the sites to see are either in the rynek or very close by like the cathedral and all the old churches. There's a palace that's also a museum that looks really nice from outside but ive never been in it. I like the panorama raclawicka and zoo a lot. There's also beautiful forests for hiking. The nightlife kind of sucks - there's one club called banana that we tend to go and then a group of like 4 clubs that are all in like this alley. Its a mix of locals, young tourists (a lot for Asia like Korea, China, few India, etc.), soccer hoolis and ukranians looking for fights, but its mostly 18-30. There's a few older people that will go that are 40 or even well beyond and they tend to just like sit at the bar and drink maybe sometimes the women will dance. There's a decent jazz club that tends to attract the older crowd. Oborniki Slaskie is close by and I like going there a lot. It's an upper middle class suburb with a mix of young commuters to Wroclaw, some international workers, and retirees that's about like 30 mins drive (or by train) from Wroclaw and it has a beautiful horse arena, nice restaurants, some hills for hiking, a huge pool that's totally filled with tons of babes in the summer months despite the disgusting green water and a lot of house parties that put the clubs to shame. The drive to Trzembnica is really nice too and there's a great pizzeria and small rynek .
Dirk diggler   
10 Jan 2018
History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

It was the high priest(s) of Israel who decided to have Jesus killed - the Romans i.e. Pilate, centurions, soldiers, etc. merely did what the local Jewish establishment wanted as the high priets convinced local Jews and the Romans in charge of Judea that Jesus was a huge threat and needed to be killed. Then they riled up the Jewish crowd so that Barabus, a thief and i believe murderer as well, could be set free instead of Jesus who was accused of blasphemy. Mainly the priests were mad at Jesus for calling out their rackets at the temple, calling them a den of vipers, flipping over their money exchange tables, etc. The Jews turned the temple into a market place and indeed to this day much business continues to be done in synagogues. You can even view old videos of Jews bringing goods to trade along with them to temple - especially the more Orthodox. Pilate didn't care about Jesus one way or other he even said he didn't see that Jesus did anything wrong but after the Jewish establishment convinced him otherwise with their nagging and whining he eventually relented and said do what you wish. Some Roman centurions even converted to Christianity afterward. Nonetheless, Roman, abetted by the local Jews, continued to persecute Christians well after Jesus' crucifixion - throwing them into pits with lions, burning them alive, etc. The ancient Jewish establishment HATED Christianity and much of this hatred especially amongst Zionists and Talmud followers continues to this day.
Dirk diggler   
10 Jan 2018
Travel / Help with a travel plan to Poland [72]

Id stick with krakow zakopane warsaw and maybe wroclaw. Poznan lublin katowice and tri cities are okay if youre goung for a long time but id focus more on krakow and zakopame amd perhaps warsaw and wroclaw if u have more time. Chances are if youre flying from far away ull likely land in warsaw. Warsaw is pretty and its worth seeing the old quarter and perhaps palace of culture. Sadly ive been to warsaw like a dozen times and have yet to go inside the palac kultury. Theres a good bit of museums but its not like all historic like.krakow. warsaw is now reconstructed and looks like a modern gentrified hipster city. Krakow is probably the best city to visit as a tourist. Very lively college town lot of architecture and historical sites. The salt mines are cool. Auschwitz is close by too and its a memorial worth visiting. Then zakopane you can reach by train or bus. Wroclaw is closer to thr german border thats where im from. Theres maybe like 3 4 full days of stuff to see as a tourist the panorama is one of my faves, the zoo is cool, the rynek is great and an awesome meeting spot. Everyday theres like something new going on in.rynek which makes it fun if ur a local like one day theyll have a motorcycle rally another some sumo exhibition another like a concert thrown by some hair salon chain just random stuff.
Dirk diggler   
9 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

I still don't think even with splitting a place to bring the cost of rent down a guy from Nepal would be able to have a half decent existence in Poland with no savings, no unique skills, and going with the hopes that he'll get a part time job which will carry him through.

Although if he's a winner and is ambitious he'll make it. Quite a few people have come to countries where they knew no one, didn't know the language, had no special skills or education yet 10-20 years later they have a 7 figure net worth. Most students in PL would not fair well if they didn't have any savings, family to help them out, a place they don't have to pay rent for, etc - especially if they didn't know Polish and had no skills. Most of the foreign students are receiving some sort financial assistance whether it's their family, some savings they've had, etc. Most though do not rely on a part time entry level job in Poland to pay for all their expenses. They use that money for clothes, going out, food, books, maybe some rent, cell phone, etc. It makes it even harder that the guy is Nepali as many Polish employers tend to give preference to Ukrainians for entry level low wage jobs over others simply because Ukrainians either already know enough Polish to get around or will very soon. If he learned Polish he'd at least be on the same playing field as the Ukrainians in Poland with whom he'd be competing against.
Dirk diggler   
9 Jan 2018
Travel / Help with a travel plan to Poland [72]

I am surprised at what seems to be a reluctance to travel far for the Poles

Poles actually travel a lot but more so abroad like to Turkey, Bulgaria, Egypt, Thailand, Spain, France, Germany, etc. Even like people who aren't making a killing like say your average taxi driver or maid will take vacations abroad since the tickets are cheap. A lot of Pol-Ams will go to Poland then buy tickets for a flight to another country to visit as its way cheaper.

Krakow is beautiful - it's the cultural capital of Poland. See Wawel Castle first and foremost.

Zakopane isn't too far either like 2 hours from Krakow and it's worth visiting especially if you're into mountains, winter sports,. It's like a Polish Aspen, Colorado or mini Basel without the watch industry.
Dirk diggler   
9 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

Most students will share rooms, so 500-700zł at the most including bills.

The cheapest sublets I've seen advertised (at least around Wroclaw) were around the 200-400 eu a month mark. That's still around 850 z's. As a young male who doesn't speak Polish and doesn't appear to have much work experience, he'd be competing for 13-15, at most 20 z an hour jobs (which he'd get really lucky to land 20z's an hour). Even at the middle of 15 z's an hour he'll have to work 2 weeks (part time) just to pay the sublet. So perhaps yes if he were living with a bunch of others people and just subletting a room or living in a hostel at 40 zloty a night, then yeah he might be able to manage, but barely though. Even then though he'd spend 2 weeks out of the month working just to pay the sublet, and another 2 weeks to make another 750 zloty (15 z's x 25 hours x 2 weeks). Also, it'd be very very difficult for him even to land a 15 z an hour job for 25-30 hours a week as there's plenty of ukranians that would want that job, and even accept a lower wage that's closer to the min wage.
Dirk diggler   
9 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

The topic of the thread is 'Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs?' and the Nepalese guy asked about working while he's a student. Yes, there are jobs, mostly in the major cities like Warsaw, available for young non Polish speaking individuals with no experience in a niche or in demand field. These lower skilled, entry level type jobs are increasingly being taken by Ukrainians though. Sit down at a café, restaurant or bar in downtown Wroclaw and chances are there's at least a few Ukranians working there and basically every other café/bar/etc around it. Studying PL with hardly any savings and expecting to find a job as such an individual is imo not a good decision. The reason why is it's going to be very difficult to survive financially and go to school. It could work if you're working like 30-40 hour weeks and spread our your classes. At best he could compete for some low wage restaurant, hotel, agriculture, handicraft, etc. jobs that tend to mostly go to Ukrainian migrants.

Rent alone in a major city starts at around 2,500 z's - a bit above the minimum wage of 2k zloty which is around the type of earnings an inexperienced young male without an education could expect unless he has some blue collar specialty like construction, plumbing, mechanic, etc. especially at a part time job.

Even at a theoretical 20-25-30 z's an hour (25-30 being basically double the min wage of 2k z's a month) and 25 hour weeks he'd make 2k - 3k z a month - just enough to cover the rent. Either the person would have to find an employer willing to pay him 30-40 z's an hour for an unskilled job to make ends meet (maybe he'd make that as a waiter with tips at a nice restaurant in the rynek where there's always tons of tourists - but those jobs more often than not require at least some knowledge of Polish not to mention past waiting experience), or he'd have to work over 40-50 hour weeks to make ends meet at a low wage like washing dishes which plenty of ukranians are happy to take for 15-20 z's an hour.

Of course this seems like a ton of money to people like the Nepali guy where minimum wages are like $70-$100 a month and making $500 a month is considered a lot of money. However, the cost of living in Poland, rent prices, etc. make it very very difficult for someone just to come in with no language skills, no other highly in demand skills like coding for example, to just get a part time job that will pay him 3k zloty a month so he can manage even a fairly Spartan existence and share rent with other individuals. Also, he's going to be competing with tons of newly arrived Ukrainians who tend to get preferential treatment in job hiring for like lower skill, more entry level jobs and will gladly work 10 hour days at 12.5-20 zloty an hour. In 2015 even there was a report of security guards being paid as little as something like 5-6 zloty an hour. Even at the current minimum wage which I believe is 12.5 or even say 15-20 zl its going to be nearly impossible to be able to afford a typical college student's life if you have no prior savings.

Now if the Nepali guy studied computer science and became a programmer or coder or whatever he could easily make 10k z's after graduating. But during college an unskilled part time individual can't expect much more than the minimum wage and even then he'll have to compete with many Ukrainians for such a job which will have a far better grasp of Polish.
Dirk diggler   
8 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

Hence why i said at best but ya in reality itd prolly go to a ukranian

The s asians that are killin it in pl atleast in wroclaw tend to be it pros (more indians, pakis, etc) and small busissmen (more chinese, some korean/viet).

There are places that will hire just about anyone for peanuts to work in fields, tan leather, hotels, make handicrafts, etc but they tend to be taken by ukranian women and its hprrible work
Dirk diggler   
8 Jan 2018
Work / Studies In Poland, is it easy to survive on part-time jobs? [259]

@Pratap oli

Can you send me some nepalese honey?

But no unless you learn the language or have it skills at best youll land a low wage job washing dishes and even for that you'll be competing with local students, ukranians, other s asians that came to pl thinking theyd get a job while thwyre in college
Dirk diggler   
6 Jan 2018
Travel / Suggestion for nightlife in Poland [28]

Hahaha comparable to ibiza? Nowhere in pl buddy. But praha prolly has the best nightlife now. Warsaw is legit too. Wroclaw kind of sucks theres only a handful of small clubs but thr girls that go tend to be atleast 6 7s plus. Berlin use to be great now i tend to avoid germanistan unless ive first plasted my car with armor plating
Dirk diggler   
6 Jan 2018
Life / Moving from India to Krakow for employment - suggestion for good location to live with family [22]

There are absolutely good jobs mainly in it going to pakis and indians. A good chunk of them are making 10 15k zs if they have experience education etc. A lot maybe arent making over 10k but they may be just using it as an experience to go westwards or just gaining experience. Everyday theres tons of indians (mostly) or pakistanis on here asking about visas, jobs, apartments, etc. Some indians end up rly liking poland and stay and even learn the language.

In wroclaw there is a small/mid sized corp that recruits people wanting to learn to program/code. You take a 6 to 12 mon course at their location and upon successful completion of a sort of programming class youre offered a 10k z salary brutto. They mainly recruit young people and eager working moms. Personally that kind of jobs sounds extremely boring just sitting around and writing code. But it is a fairly quick learn, decent salary, and pretty stable job.
Dirk diggler   
5 Jan 2018
Life / English family in Wroclaw! [70]

Theres very few people from england but there is a fair sized expat community in wroclaw some italians some spanish Portuguese etc. Lot of ukranian migrants like 120k in wroclaw if not more. Youll meet more people from other commonwealth countries than england like india and pakistan, most of whom seem to work in it and corporate jobs. Theres also a lot of poles from wroclaw that come back and forth from england. Some students, some professionals and a lot of people that work jobs in uk then spend their money in pl or atleast have family back home
Dirk diggler   
3 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

Well apparently Theresa May wants good relations with Poland and wants the Poles in UK to feel secure despite Brexit. She recently met with Poland's leadership.

Polish patriotic groups support certain German and French groups like AfD and the identitaire movement and vice versa. However, as a country they're simply too far gone - especially France. Germany still has somewhat of a chance but it needs drastic changes unless it wants to become like France in the near future and have nonstop state of emergency. Thankfully, Merkel is failing, she can't form a coalition, 50% of Germans want her out, and AfD is having a meteoric rise. Merkels resorted to begging Germans not to listen to AfD's message which clearly isn't working. Their ranks swell everyday. Now even Austria voted in a government that will be strict on immigration. All this movement is simply to preserve our own sovereign nations and not allow a millennia of culture, civilization, history and our heritage to go to the dustbin. Certain countries have simply given up the fight to preserve their societies and the traditions and values of their ancestors.
Dirk diggler   
3 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

Triple heretics.

I fear that too many of them have lost the will to stand up and fight for 'King and Country' and honor their culture, their ancestors, their motherland, etc. In Sweden, nearly everyone has a sort of neurosis where they don't like anyone that criticizes the migrant issue in their country. A journalist interviewed Swedes and sought to gather information and they didn't like the fact that he would be reporting facts, going through Malmo and showing what it looks like, etc. There's a video of a camera crew being attacked by migrants in Malmo as well. Anyway, the whole society refuses to acknowledge the problems that it has and prefer to sweep it under the rug. Even the wealthy swedes have given up and simply moved far away into the suburbs. They are safe there and move there to get away from places that have become full of migrants yet they hate it when you point out things like the skyrocketing rapes, the money being spent on housing, etc. They have these videos even they show to brainwash kids into believing in a multicultural utopia. There are German women who say that now (and well into the future) being German means having a hijab... I mean a white European lady saying this on TV.... The corporations, Zionists, socialists, etc. are working overtime to complete turning western Europe into a mindless mass of consumers who's culture, traditions, heritage, family values, etc. have been eroded. The churches are being replaced by mosques and the once deeply traditional conservative native Europeans are losing the connection to their religion, their heritage, etc. They are constantly told to accept the migrants, welcome them - share your home even with them. Don't worry about all the terrorism, nonstop state of emergency, sexual assaults, etc. We just need to do more to help them - spend even more money on giving them more welfare. They don't need a 9-5 week job and bars and clubs on the weekends - they just need our tax euros so they can send money to their family back home in Afghanistan or Ghana or wherever. They have their Saudi salafist mosques who tell these migrants that they will conquer Europe. Indeed they are doing this with ruthless efficiency. They are growing more and more and no one in Sweden, Germany, France, etc. wants to stop this madness. They've been cucked - they've simply accepted a simpler reality and prefer to be docile instead of resisting. The Slavs - Poles, Russians, Serbs, Czechs, Slovaks, etc. have not. They are resisting the western world order and the lefty multicultural sovereignty destroying anti-family anti-nation ideologies and policies. We're making our own route. We do not want to have 2 year state of emergencies like France, we don't want the women only zones because newcomer savages may help them like dogs as in Germany for NYE, we don't want the enormous bills for housing migrants, giving them food, so they can simply sit around on their butt all day as they do in UK, and that is our right as a country. This is the route that the majority of Poles want and it is clear the government continues to reaffirm our position so the EU knows exactly what to expect.
Dirk diggler   
3 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

+1
bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/religion-and-power-reunite-in-modern-poland

Jesus Is King for Poland's New Rulers

The populist government wants the country to answer to God, not its critics in Western Europe.

cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/10/12/catholic-rosary-border-event-highlights-immigration-concerns-poland/

lifesitenews.com/news/massive-turnout-for-rosary-crusade-in-poland.-liberals-furious

Massive turnout for rosary crusade in Poland. Liberals furious

Ahh maybe I can put a few more drops into my 'SJW Tears' mug

This is a clear sign that we answer to a Higher Power than the unelected commissars of the EU and their allies. Yesterday Soviet tanks, today Western banks.
Dirk diggler   
3 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

Okay technically not gone... but certainly severely weakened due to a whole host of factors most of which they brought upon themselves - terror, rapes, lack of housing, brexit in a way, trump and now a defiant v4. Even poland is outpacing almost all west eu countries in gdp growth for years and years.. france germany belgium sweden and a few others are not doing well not to mention the pigs countries. We have Jesus as King of Poland, France has a butt plug christmas tree (look it up) and Ken or should i say barbie?
Dirk diggler   
3 Jan 2018
Life / Going to Poland in a hijab - Polish people and Islam [154]

Hijab or headscarf is relatively okay but if its rly arabic looking ull prolly just get a lot of looks. Burka youll probably have people saying things to you and cops might even search you or tell you to remove it.
Dirk diggler   
2 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

Absolutely. That's why Poland, V4, Serbia, and indeed all of Slavdom should remain true to our roots and cherish where we came from. Western Europe is gone. They've embraced multiculturalism with deadly efficiency - I mean literally people are getting killed and raped thanks to EU's embrace of multiculturalism and policies meant to diminish the influence of the Christian conservatism mixed with some pagan traditions and family values that have been in Europe for 2000 years.

Actually, there's a little church in my old stomping grounds that's devoted to Svetoid. I think it's mostly Ukranians that go there. There's a big revival of Slavic paganism especially in the ukranian community especially abroad.
Dirk diggler   
2 Jan 2018
USA, Canada / Polish-Jewish survivor of the Holocaust celebrates her 100th birthday [29]

What the heck that are about?

Holocaust Industry plus a kiss on the other Zionist butt cheek. First kiss was moving embassy to Jerusalem - second is the JUST act... maybe trump will lick it too - afterall he cut aid to Pakistan ($30 bil over 15years) but I guarantee you he'll NEVER lower the aid to Israel... what a hypocrite...

Yet when Poles ask for fair compensation due to the Nazis plundering and destruction of the country all you hear is crickets....

There are more jewish holocaust survivor claims than their were jewish holocaust victims.... its pathetic
Dirk diggler   
2 Jan 2018
News / Jesus Christ is Now Officially the King of Poland [164]

@Johnny, I swear, sometimes you sound just like Archie Bunker!

What's wrong with Archie Bunker? Donald Trump won the 'Archie Bunker' vote because tens of millions of conservatives are sick of the way the lefties have been running the US. And even in PL its similar which is why PO lost and PiS continues to have 2x-3x the popularity/support of PO (according to CBOS)

Happy Birthday to the KING of Poland and ALL CHRISTIANS!!!! That's what Christmas is about...

What's sad is that many European countries like Germany, Sweden, France, etc. which had nearly 2 millennia of Christinairy have been outdone by Japan - a country which experienced Christianity only in the past 2-3 hundred years. Yet the Xmas markets in Kobe, Kyoto, etc are way more beautiful and had way more effort put in than in Germany, Paris (which has a green inflatable butt plug for an Xmas tree), etc. It's all because they don't want to provoke the Muslim migrants. Instead of battling them head on and putting their foot down so they know they must assimilate or leave and that they will be put in jail for assaulting women, no instead the cops cordon off women to prevent a repeat of Cologne's NYE (German women nonetheless faced sexual assault this year - although not as bad as 2015/2016 NYE), tens of thousands of police to prevent the migrants from stabbing people for drinking alcohol or grabbing women off the street, burning stuff, mugging people, etc.