Life / Immigration in Poland and being surrounded by a monoculture? [134]


A fair answer but I think you haven't really analyzed things thoroughly.
I'd say at the beginning of the U.S. as a nation of people, the ethnicities were different but the cultural practices were very similar. There was a unity that was able to survive a civil war and grow the greatest industrial nation history has identified but it wasn't due to multi-culturalism.

However, in more recent times, the more multi-ethnic and multi-cultural U.S. society becomes, the worse it gets for the citizenry.

Life / Immigration in Poland and being surrounded by a monoculture? [134]

Polish people need more reasons to stay in Poland and become prosperous in Poland. For the size of the country 35 million people is more than enough a population to make this place a paradise.

My question is where is the demand for immigrants coming from? Is it coming from Polish people who just can't get enough Asian cuisine, language,...? Or is it coming from business owners who can get these people to work for EVEN less?

Or is there some other source of demand for Asians and Africans in Poland that I'm not aware of?


Correct.
Can someone please tell me the last multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country that succeeded in peace and prosperity for many generations?
It just doesn't look like a winning formula and certainly not for Polish society.

History / How come Poles like Russians but not Germans? [216]

2 reasons according to the nearest Pole I just asked:
1) Russians are less successful financially so it's easier to like them.
2) Something very similar to racism.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]

Your conclusion:


To what I wrote:


...doesn't add up to me -please explain what you mean.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]


None taken, but my only point was that incentives are nice but until a system of taxation and governance that brings out only the best in people, there will be people who just aren't or choose not to be honest. For those people, penalties do serve a purpose:/

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]

Magda and Lyszko have made solid points/observations in this thread.
Working on a farm back home is considered honest work. Repairing or installing plumbing and irrigation is too.
I've found there to be both less respect given to "dirty" work here and that may well be one of the disincentives Magda alluded to. But yes, certainly incentives are needed, that being said, until a perfect system is designed then penalties are probably going to also be necessary.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]


ok last post for the evening. Yes I understand that this happens but if these women prove themselves capable of standing among their peers and graduate (let's imagine for a moment that the type of degree isn't a factor) then that's a good indication they're the kind of people you'd want in charge of the next generation of the country. If they choose to become managers of human resources for the country then who's to say that isn't paying back the state, so-to=speak?

Now, that isn't to say the financial costs shouldn't be considered, I don't argue with you there at all. I completely see where that perspective has to come into play.

However, doing that would be hard. And if I'm really going to make it solely financial, then I ought to sit down and with very accurate economics, break down the numbers comparing the costs of the following:

- paying for a woman's education (we could do this for a man as well but since the point of contention is mothers then I recommend restricting ourselves to this)

- the cost to society for no child
- the cost to society for children raised badly
- the benefit to society for children raised well

Quantifying those things would allow me to compare those things. After that then I think it safer to start moving towards any gripe about financial costs.

And you may in fact have a legitimate point.
But I don't know what numbers you've based your argument on so I can't agree until I do.
If you know of these calculations then I'd like in on them.


Yeah I've been following your answers to these and I found myself nodding my head to your responses and yeah I was wondering the same.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]

I cannot make sense of what you're saying. What measures would undermine whose right to be a mother to their children?


I find that a very warped perspective, if you want to take it to the feminist thread then we can have at it there. (but not tonight, I got a 7am start tomorrow).

Raising children is work, isn't it?
Are you suggesting women should "pay back" their debt (so to speak) financially before having children?
Raising people who contribute into society is a long-term contribution isn't it? What do you think the economic cost is of not having or raising children?


I agree with you there and that is essential to my point -there is a lack of opportunity here compared to the west.


I can't argue with that.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]


Are you sure I spoke of "these" jobs?


How?


How's that a problem in the sense that it would undermine the idea you two proposed?


Okay I can see how that doesn't contribute economically in the short run but still if some people decide family life and their children are more important than making money then how does that undermine the basic premise of your idea.

Personally I think incentives to work in Poland would be better than penalties for working abroad but I think that idea you two came up with is decent.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]

That may well be the best idea I've ever read on PF. Can anyone see any holes in that idea?

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]

No idea what PIIGS is but if you think salaries should be lower in Poland compared to western Europe do you also think prices of utilities and food and fuel should remain comparably lower?

And yeah it does not help that many graduates leave and work elsewhere but is making it illegal really the answer? I myself think incentives would do more than penalties. But that takes us back to the inadequate approach to leadership and management that exists throughout the Polish government.


Okay, so we seem to agree on the basics, I'm trying to understand how you envision a recession to do anything but drive even more capable people out of the country...not to mention the increase in crime that will accompany it.

Life / Fr. John Bashobora National stadium Warszawa (Warsaw) [81]


By that same token, no one can dispute the speed of tortoise.

Travel / Sosnowiec and Krakow - what to see? [6]

You have a couple weeks? Do you mean you have a couple weeks business-free or you've got obligations from 7a.m. - 3 p.m?

If you have your days free then I think you should get out of the area for at least 7 days.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]


Nor could any society. And for the record, I'm confident everyone on this thread was well aware of that before you chose to spread your wisdom.


She? I've never understood the reasoning to personifying nations/societies, with all their complexity, down to one person. But alas, what can I do except encourage people away from it?

Okay digression aside, another thing most, if not all of us already know is that, with a monetary system we're constrained or supported by it, depending on your perspective.

As I've understood it, what a society needs to function well economically is a healthy flow of financial transactions along with competent governance and a fair legal system.

I believe that as long as the money supply, like a blood supply, circulates then the monetary system is operating at top efficiency.
If you choose to disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.


Good question imo, maybe there is a recession here. But if there isn't, would you really like to see unemployment get to levels that would indicate a recession? How would that be beneficial?

The pampered, pragmatic and persnickety lot need grounding? Why? How? To what ends?
I see you have links but as Paulina pointed out, comparing the U.S. and Polish societies in this regard seems like faulty reasoning.


So, why not take that up with JKSA or JKB or whoever wrote it (if you have then my apologies)?


What are you asking?


Now that is the truth! Nowhere is the deficiency in leadership here more evident than with the Polish government.

Travel / Just visited Poland - here is my random rant [154]


Good post.
As others have commented, the breadth of your observations shows you knew what to look for from the start. I think this is lost on some people who haven't taken your experiences in Poland into account.

#1 eh, maybe it was the time and places you were at. I've noticed no such shortage of drivers on major and minor roads up past Częstochowa and it gets just plain stupid in Krakow and Bielsko Biała.

#3 I see your point but I think restoration would be the best way to get rid of the eyesores...if they're still of use that is.

#5 Those are a good thing for the time being my friend. Until the infrastructure improves or Polish drivers respect the lives of, well everyone else around them, those radars and speed traps are what's keeping the roads safer imo.

#13 Don't get me started on that whole thing. Wrong on just about every level.

Other than those things, I think I see your point on just about everything else. Very objective and concise considering the spectrum you gave yourself.

On a side note, Paulina is correct. Polish society does NOT need a recession. The idea is laughable.

News / Polish women killed her husband by stamping on his head, can't be deported from UK [8]

So in the wake of a child losing one parent to murder and another to jail time, what comes to your mind is "hilariously inappropriate punch lines?"

Why, I had no idea you were that much of an idiot.

News / Polish women killed her husband by stamping on his head, can't be deported from UK [8]

So she knew he was an alcoholic but decided to not only stay with him but leave him in charge of their son and when he did what addicts do, she killed a defenseless person. Yet somehow "Mr Justice Blake, the UK's most senior immigration judge, ruled that she could stay because her crime did not cross a 'seriousness threshold' under European law."

Hey, feminists, how does this sit with you all?
How would that go over with you and the general public if a man stomped his wife to death and got 2 years?
What the hell kind of precedent does that set?

Travel / About international driving license - is it recognizable in Poland? [18]


That's okay johnb121, I think I'll get over it;)
Thanks for the information and the link.

Travel / About international driving license - is it recognizable in Poland? [18]

The international license, to the best of my knowledge, isn't an actual license but an endorsement from an insurance agency which allows you to drive in a country for a period of 1 year as long as you are operating a vehicle in a country in which its validity has been ratified.

You still need a valid license, preferably yours.

Travel / Sosnowiec and Krakow - what to see? [6]

I've some experience with Sosno. What is the o.p. looking to do? How do you want to spend your time? Who are you going with?

jon357 made an excellent suggestion, it is worth a visit.

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]


beat me at my own game...sigh


With you Magda, the pleasure has been all mine: )

Life / Polish way of life? [34]

Polish way of life?
Based on the experiences I've had or witnessed over the last 10+ years:
Live and let live (for some things).
- Eat drink and be merry.
- Any surface can and will become a dance floor with enough alcohol and music.
- No harm, no foul (not a Polish phrase but I've seen it in practice here a lot and it's by far my favourite aspect of life here)

- In the end, it doesn't matter what you wear.
- If you can buy it for 20 gr. less somewhere else then go somewhere else.
- Go to church.
- Drink with the relatives after church.
- Argue with relatives when drinking with them.
- Being loud = Being right
- Forget about the stupid thing you were arguing about.
- Get married. Have children. Have multiple affairs. (in that order)
- Taking needless risks which jeopardize you and others is generally the best practice.
- Admitting fault or blame is tantamount to proclaiming oneself a heretic, baby-hating faggot.
- Break rules, break them now and break them often.
- Showing off whenever possible but especially when operating a vehicle of any kind.
- Queuing is for suckers.
- Take a short cut because the pavement never goes where it should (but watch out for droppings).</li></ul>
It's never boring:)

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]

Yeah I hear what you're saying about escalating:/ But the "righteous indignation" that you're banging on about is just that.
Okay, I agree the "Poles from North to South" was a rather dumb thing to write but why not take that up with the author?


Yes, and we've taken note of one aspect of that dysfunction in Poland, that's it.


And before you were trying to be rude?
Why would you thank me for saying something polite about Polish society when you're responsible for neither the bad nor good I've experienced here?

We think very differently on this matter and perhaps we think very differently about watching where we're going when we walk as well: )

Anyhow Magda, you're alright and I thank you for doing your best to make me see your sense of logic. I just need more time to figure out how you think.

I hope London treats you well and if not London, then wherever it is you are.

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]


Well those people are twats so that's that.


No. It doesn't because the Poles on this thread are the ones protesting to a couple anecdotes some foreigners have shared with each other. Why?


I've explained that statement to you, if you insist on interpreting that as a blanket statement applicable to all Poles then there's no helping you and that's that.


So you think there is zero dysfunction in Polish society?
Or is it you "know" that I think I'm superior to each and every Pole because I've noticed some odd behavior from some Poles?


I never said any kind words to you or about you. Your readiness to take that as a compliment tells me you've interpreted any uncomplimentary comment about anything Polish as a comment about yourself. I wasn't talking about you on page 1 and the complimentary things about Polish society weren't about you either. You're a non-entity in my experiences here, not in a good way or bad way just a fact of the matter. If you want to take these things personally then I am left with no other conclusion that you, Grzegorza and Lenka are being overly emotional.


Yes I understood that a long time ago but I've no idea why you've chosen me to target other than you think you "know" what I mean despite me telling you, quite honestly that you're dead wrong.

Have I ever told you not to criticize or comment about the society where you live?
Have I not chosen to be specific with my words and avoided sweeping generalizations?
If you can prove otherwise then show me; I'll apologize (sincerely and profusely) and correct it.

I'm not saying the double standards you talk about don't exist but I'm not responsible for them, therefore I kindly ask you take up your crusade with those who are.

None of the foreigners in this thread have blamed you for the people we've observed who lack crowd etiquette.
It's all just one big (5 pages) of a misunderstanding.
Now if you've read this page you'll see both ironside and Harry have some experiences and observations of their own. Are you going to let them get away with such attacks on all of Poland and all Poles?

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]

You guys are waaaaaaaaaaaay too uptight. So what if we notice some goofs do goofy sh*t (I understand that probably hits close to home for you Mr. dog)?

Some of you can't even navigate a message board without getting offended at a few observations others make. There are little things that are different wherever one goes and all we've done here is notice some idiosyncrasies of Polish culture. If you have that much trouble acknowledging such things exist then you've really got to get over your collective selves.

Now then, other than pip's comment I don't recall anyone writing that all Poles suck at queuing or don't know how to walk properly or anything that sweeping. If I'm wrong, as I've been before, then kindly point out in this thread who wrote such a generalizing comment and we can all get mad at that person. If I wrote such a thing then I will gladly rescind that statement and apologize profusely. I mean it too because there's a lot of good that I enjoy here every day in people and places.


No I don't. I commented on some people not all Poles. If you are one of the retards who walks in everyone's path then I hope something large and heavy falls on you soon. If you're not one of those people then go back to fetching sticks.


If a foreigner living in Poland told you not to whine about living in the UK while they themselves whined about living in Poland then you'd have a point. Have any of us on this thread told you not to whine about dumb sh*t some of the English do?

You wouldn't protest if Poles said these things so why do you care in the least if non Poles make observations about some things in Poland?

In my experience:
Polish food is the best in the region
Polish hospitality is second to none
Polish competitiveness is worthy of song
Feel better?

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]


Oh dear, a lot of you get so offended when someone says something other than "Polska jest najlepsza." Don't read it if it bothers you so much. We're just having fun sharing some observations that believe it or not actually occur.


"Fact...If"
I've heard Poles say the exact same things so put away your toy guns because no one's attacking you. If you are that offended by the content of this thread it's likely you who has poor depth perception and bumbles into everyone. Now keep your head up and watch where you're going because you've obviously wandered in to the wrong thread.

Now BLS, back to the story; give us the whole story. Tell us all the gritty details man; )

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]

No way man, I re-neg, I re-neg!
Seriously though was this broad lookin straight ahead and chose not to see others or was she lookin around and kind of not lookin very oriented (you know how ladies do that from time to time)?

If she was headed straight for you and had no excuse not to see you then I still have to side with you on this but if she was distracted then we gots to investigate this further and dare I say, you may have been out of order sir.

Details man! Details!
Take us back there, take us back to the scene of this encounter that some Poles would describe as malicious and others would describe as warranted. Were you justified in not making some extra effort to get out of her way? Was an extra effort required? Was this part of a long-term socialization process you've hatched on the unsuspecting Poles? What exactly were your motives and have they changed?

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]

Well in that case I completely apologize.
They both should have been watching where they were going.

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]


As far as I understood it, that isn't the case.
However I am interested in how the majority of Polish posters have interpreted this little scenario. I feel like I'm on the verge of finally understanding some of you.

The way I see it (forgive me as I wasn't involved in this one but I have had a similar experience) is this:
If you (Lenka) are standing still and not in an entrance way or otherwise being obstructive and another person (BLS) is walking then it's that other person's job to avoid walking in to you or anyone else.

Do you see that differently?


For the last time, as I understood the story:
He
Was
Not
Moving.

When you're moving, you have to look around at where you're going and where you're not. Does that really seem fundamentally wrong to you?

Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]


It wasn't. Each time I made a noticeable effort to get out his way, he made a deliberate effort to get in my way. When I gave him my "wtf" hand gesture, he did the same thing.

You asked how it ended.
Play stupid games and win stupid prizes- I haven't seen him since.


So we're in agreement then? Fabulous: ) I was starting to wonder if there truly was a segment of the population here that supported such behavior.


Oh gawd, tell me about it.
On the plus side one thing I noticed is that Londoners do not tolerate queue jumping. I'd like to see more of that here but of course not at the expense of the other benefits that exist here. I like how Poles tend not to put their noses in other people's business. Often I feel there's a real "live and let live" attitude here. However there's something like 1/8 individuals that in my honest opinion just seems to have a real "screw you" attitude to everyone else and I am perplexed that so many not only condone it but defend it.


No excuse for that and no good can come of making way for such people.
One shouldn't drive, ski, box, play football, go biking, play hockey or even ski without taking a look around. Of course the upside of your method is she'll get used to it and eventually get herself killed but she may take other mother's children with her as well. So we will have to agree to disagree on this I'm afraid as I cannot condone venturing out into public without regard for those around you.

You and Grzegorz should be applauding BLS and his efforts, who knows he may have given her the reminder she needed that will one day prevent her from walking into you and spilling her drink all over you before one of your appointments. You should be thanking him.


How did you get that interpretation?
My interpretation is that he was well within his right to use an English saying: Watch where you're going.
Is there anything similar in Polish?