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Posts by Tacitus  

Joined: 6 Jul 2017 / Male ♂
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Last Post: 18 Oct 2024
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Tacitus   
4 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Germany has no territorial claims,

Because it waved those claims in treaties that solved the reparation issue, yes. Just like Germany has no legal claim to its' former territories, so does Poland not have any claims to reparations.

We had this discussion before and it is not really fruitful if I have to explain all the basics to you over and over again. You clearly seem interested in this issue, so I would recommend reading some literature about it. Numerous books have been published about the Oder-Neisse-Line and how the German and Polish government negotiated about it. A book that explains it quite well is this:

Allen, Debra J. (2003). The Oder-Neisse line: the United States, Poland, and Germany in the Cold War.

After all we all agree that the post-war German state has no legal claims to any territories.

This is wrong. The former Eastern Territories belonged legally to Germany until it accepted the loss of it in those treaties. That is basic international law. The Potsdam Agreement was not a permanent border settlement (which is stated in the text itself) so for a permanent solution, Germany would have to agree to the border.

Something the Polish people were very nervous about until 1990/91. That nervosity was unfounded of course, something everybody pointed out to them. But they still insisted on it. Their chose, and Poland has to live with it.

nothing

Nothing perhaps to you. But not to the Polish people and politicians in 1989/90 who pestered the 4 occupational powers and Germany to finalize the border before reunification took place. They were willing to wave their reparation claims as a consequence, and this they did. No need to feel angry about it though. The reason why you do not consider the border in any way threatened is because of those agreements. So they worked as they should.
Tacitus   
4 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

so you're telling me that the post-commie government in Poland waved away Poland's right to reparation in exchange for ....nothing?

Not for nothing. During the negotiations for German Reunification, the Polish government created a lot of smoke over the border issue. More specifically they wanted an assurance that a reunited Germany would forfeit its claims to former Germany territories. Previously only the FRG and GDR had done so 1953 and 1970 for their states. The Polish government was very insistent and almost derailed the entire negotiations, but in the end a solution was found. A reunited Germany confirmed the border and solved the reparation issue permanently.

Again, all the Polish government wanted was the border confirmed and accepted that the reparations would be ruled out. The PM of Poland told that Kohl in one of his phone calls. There are good books written about the entire negotiations that explain this in a lot of detail. And as side note, some of the historians I have read (quite a few British and French one) have noted that the Polish government has played their cards rather poorly in this one. There was never any chance for a border change back then, but their insistence (fuelled bythe Polish Domestic press) on it made them wave their last chance for reparations.

You keep mixing those two together.

Those were linked from the very beginning. Poland always wanted the existing borders confirmed (because the Potsdam Protocol was not a permanent settlement) and they always treated the reparation issue as bargaining chip. Which was fine, because Germany did the same with the border question.

They are also linked today. Because when the Polish government claims that those treaties over the border and reparation were not final, they also obviously put the legal status of Western Poland in doubt.
Tacitus   
3 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

All that they would see is a victim and an aggressor. And the fact that aggressor doesn't want to compensate for his crimes.

The impression is that the grand-children of the culprits are not going to pay a tn€ to the grand-children of the victims who already received compensation.

, that a moral argument - and not a messy legal one - would be decisive here

A moral argument can be decisive if it can be supported by a legal argument. The legal argument is already completely on Germany's side, and the moral one is very questionable, and getting weaker with time.

Poland is not Namibia, nor Greece. Buckle up, my friend :-)

Yes, we might end up paying to Namibia and Greece. But thankfully, that is not the case with Poland ;)
Tacitus   
3 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

And here's the best thing: all that Poland says its truth . As simple as that. Not some anti-German propaganda but hard facts.

This is where you are wrong. The facts regarding war reparations are all on Germany's side. The question regarding war reparations has been settled in several binding treaties. And PiS knows this which is why they are forced to get creative in their arguments.

You are also mistaking with your argument about the passage of time. Time is on Germany's side in this argument. With every year that passes, Poland loses the moral argument and it becomes more and more ridiculous to claim 1tn reparations from the great-grandparents of the culprits. Once the last WWII surivor dies, it will become as ridiculous as e.g. demanding reparations for the Napoleonic Wars.

as a tool in negotiations with Germany to puts some pressure on the opponent

It would pressure on the opponent if that would deemed as a valid argument. The German government knows that those claims are invalid and thus simply ignore them. The irony is that among all of Germany's victims during the war, Poland -despite suffering the most - has the weakest claim for reparations because several Polish governments - including the democratic elected ones - have waved Poland's right to reparations several times over.

So, any territorial claims of today German state are invalid and null by default.

That is true. Germany waved the claim to its' former territories in the same treaties that included Polish demands for reparations. If you deem those treaties as invalid to justify war reparations, you would also invalid the German agreement to forgo claims to former territories. Then again, Poland can not unilaterally refute those treaties within international law, so this is all purely academical.

It is also true that sometimes moral pressure can be used against some countries as a tool, but without any legal foundation, they have little influence.

For example both Greece and Namibia have received some support even by German politicians, because they can rightfully point out that not all matters of reparations have been permanently settled. Germany never paid reparations to Namibia, and never made any agreement regarding the loan it forcibly took from Greece during WWII. However Polish claims have not received any support, precisely because they have no legal foundation.
Tacitus   
3 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

This is a very complicated legal matter and I do not see any merit in explaining it to some people who do not care about facts anyway.

WWII is long over, and all matters regarding the war between Germany and Poland have been definitely dealt with anyway.
Tacitus   
3 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

You know, the sketch was making more fun about the Brits than the Germans. Or more specifically, about those who were still fighting the war 30 years after its' end. In a way it gets more relevant with every day. Because those who still bring it up as a way to judge modern Germans are just exposing their own stupidity, like Basil did.
Tacitus   
2 Nov 2018
Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]

China so far has based their impressive growth on Western technologies and on manufacturing Western products.

Yes, so far. But they have almost caught up to us. They now have modern education system, a large population to produce scientists and a government that is willing to spend the necessary ressources to see it done. It might still take a while, but those factors will eventually have an impact.

And the individualism is a driving force behind innovation.

You are right. That is the one advantage which I hope will grant Western societies an edge over China, that being said, how much it will matter is not really predictable. Japan also places a lot of value on collectivism, and they have become a very innovative society. In any case, the days when the West (and Japan) dominated the scientific world are numbered.
Tacitus   
2 Nov 2018
Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]

I was referring to the view that White People were the driving force behind most innovation. That has beeb true for some time, but is likely to change within the next decades. Especially China does everything to become a scientific powerhouse and leader in key technologies like artificial intelligence.
Tacitus   
2 Nov 2018
Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]

AIDS is also an African invention

I am sure the native Americans are particulary greatful to Europeans who exposed them to so many diseases that killed up to 90% of them.

You are in a way fortunate Rich. If I remember correctly, you claimed to be a grandfather, so you likely won't live long enough to see the world change against your viewpoint.
Tacitus   
2 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

ypical German mind which only operates in two extreme modes.

It must be convenient to live in a world in which you can stereotype people so easily.

Have you ever heard about like different, more civilized measures?

Like judging them fairly, and not based on the actiond of a few individuals?
Tacitus   
2 Nov 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Interesting how similar old antisemtic cartoons from the Nazi era and modern antimuslim cartoons are. Then again, the people who draw them arr also very much alike in their mindsetting and tactics.
Tacitus   
30 Oct 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

The implications of her departure are pretty heavy for Poland as well. Few German politicians showed so many sympathy and understanding for Poland. There is no guarantee that her successor will be similiary inclined.
Tacitus   
29 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

Perhaps someone could tell me what is so problematic about this picture? France and Germany are working on a solution for Syria that will stop the bloodshed and end the flow of Syrians to Europe, two goals I believe everyone can agree on. And for that to happen, they need to talk with the countries that have influence in Syria, and those are unfortunately Turkey and Russia.
Tacitus   
28 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

I can name at least one action when the EU broke all democratic rules

Just another example how the Brexiteer press twisted the truth for their agenda. The Irish people were asked to vote after the EU adressed the concerns that made the people reject the first version, and the Irish people approved it. Nothing undemocratic here.

But of course the Brexiteer press leaves out that part... .
Tacitus   
28 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

They also hoped that the membership in the EU would help the economy of those new countries, thereby adding legitimacy to their developing democracies. Which was not an unfounded hope.
Tacitus   
27 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

Brexit and the British example.

Brexit will probably strengthening the EU, because it shows just how valuable the EU is. How many countries are demanding concessions for a British WTO membership again?
Tacitus   
27 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

You'll twist it in any direction just to defend a losing cause, won't you?

You are the on twisting the facts. Like this one:

Does it mean that Poland can striped them off their minority rights?

There were never minority rights in the areas that are still German. The Polish people in the Ruhr Valley were thus never stripped of their rights.

at what point we should stop considering them a minority in Poland?

Poland agreed to grant the minority rights in their treaties with Germany after 1989. This is not something they can simply revoke at will without consequences, nor was it granted purely out of goodwill. It was part of the package that made Germany act so conciliatory towards Poland and support their accession to the EU.

So I think that the "German question" will just solve itself naturally

Perhaps, though it will take time. We see the same happening with the Sorbs and Danish minority.
Tacitus   
27 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

And while living in the area, they did not suddenly find themselves living in a different country. The difference is that there was no historical Polish minority in Germany around 1989 that had retained their Polish character, whereas there was still one in Poland. The Polish people who migrated to the Ruhr Valley usually lost their Polish identity very quickly, my family history can attest to that.
Tacitus   
27 Oct 2018
News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

it was never the Jews' faith or creed which was the issue. Had that been the case, Jews would have mostly converted to Christianity

You hit the nail on the head with this one. It did not matter for the Nazis whether or not you were a Christian, if your mother was a Jew, you were a Jew. Because it was not about religion, it was about race. A lot of famous Germans who were staunch patriots ho never considered themselves as Jews, were persecuted because of this. Case in point, Fritz Haber.
Tacitus   
27 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

dude, read the legal justification for granting a minority status in the EU.

That is precisely what the German government does according to Wikipedia:

The position of the German government is, that after the German territorial losses after World War II, the current Polish minority has no century old roots in the remaining German territory, because Germany lost all the territories where people of German and Polish ethnicity overlapped. Since they are therefore only recent immigrants, they do not fulfill the requirements of a national minority according to the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and the Treaty of Good Neighbourship. Being German citizens, they still retain all civil and political rights every German citizen possesses, and therefore can voice their will in the political system.

Tit for tat. Simple.

It would be, if the situations were comparable. The German minority in Poland lives now there because of the changing of borders. The Polish people in Germany live there because of the concious decision to immigrate. The German minority in Poland lives in a relatively concentrated area. The Polish people in Germany live all over Germany. There is a good case for granting the German minority in Poland those rights, but not for Polish people in Germany.
Tacitus   
26 Oct 2018
News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]

The Polish people had that right in Germany before the war

Yes in Upper Silesia, where there was an historical justification for doing so. There is no historical justification for granting them those rights nowadays. The Polish people in Upper Silesia (and now the German people living there) found themselves living under "foreign" rule due to shifting borders. The Polish people who lived in the Ruhr Valley lived there (and continue to live) there because they made the conscious decision to emigrate.

nd now lovely, friendly, democratic Germany doesn't want to give it back.

What is Germany supposed to give back? All the property confiscated lies in modern-day Poland.