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Posts by boletus  

Joined: 13 Apr 2011 / Male ♂
Last Post: 10 Nov 2012
Threads: Total: 30 / In This Archive: 27
Posts: Total: 1356 / In This Archive: 958
From: Canada, Toronto
Speaks Polish?: yes

Displayed posts: 985 / page 4 of 33
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boletus   
28 Sep 2012
News / Poland marching for faith and freedom [43]

Poland's media on Thursday reported that up to 200,000 demonstrators will converge on Warsaw on Saturday to march against the rurling Tusk clique.

To do what? Agitate for going to barricades with bottles of gasoline, as this doting fool wants Poles to do, Polonius?

Statement of Jarosław Marek Rymkiewicz for the portal wPolityce.pl

Varsovians, Poles!

Join the march "Wake up Poland".

Unless you join the currently organized marches, which may change something in Poland, you will soon have to take to the streets with bottles of gasoline.

This regime needs to be changed. As soon as possible. Because the Polish State is dying. We can not allow it to die.

I repeat it once again: if you do not want to be forced to go to the barricades with the bottles of gasoline, then come now, and let us try to overthrow them in this way.
boletus   
27 Sep 2012
Genealogy / Galetka, Martin - married to an Elizabeth; I believe Klil - last name not sure of [14]

Elizabeth Klil

last name of Elizabeth (maiden name) was Klillut

Neither one of those two versions sound Slavic to me. Double LL? Very unusual in Polish. Three Ls combined with softening I? No, this would be a real tongue twister for Poles or Slovaks. Google shows ONLY 17 references to the word KLILLUT, suggesting perhaps German but many of them look like just a garbage coming from optical recognition software errors - occurring during Google books digitizing process of the original materials. So if it is a German name then it must be extremely rare. But I doubt it; it seems to me as a corruption of some sort.

Where did you get it from? From some hand written record? If this is the case, could you post its image here?
boletus   
27 Sep 2012
Genealogy / Kszyczkowski? [2]

Her family name was Keyes. changed from Kszyczkowski it seems?
She was Yiddish and we go back to Poland.
I do remember her saying none survived the camps.

I cannot help much here in direct seeking of your relatives, but I'll try to clarify the spelling, which may put you on the right track. The last name Kszyczkowski could come from one of two Polish roots:

krzyk (noun) => a scream, shout, yell, call
krzyczeć (verb) => to scream, to shout, to yell, to call

kszyk (noun) => a snipe, common snipe (a bird)

The two are pronounced exactly the same, rougly [kshic]. However, the first one, which is more common in Polish, is formed accordingly to Polish grammar rules. The second one is a rare word - majority of Poles do not even know what it means until they are are told in grammar classes that grammatically this word is an exception.

So I am questioning whether or not that surname should not be spelled Krzyczkowski, rather than Kszyczkowski. I have no patience to go through various American or Australian databases in details, but ancestry.com summarizes that it found 177 historical documents & family trees with Krzyczkowski, compared with 42 records for Kszyczkowski.

Statistically, Google shows 1440 references to Kszyczkowski, but only 595 records if your particular new surname Keyes is excluded.
Compared to that there are 80,000 Google references to Krzyczkowski.

The Polish database "My Relatives" lists 341 males Krzyczkowski and 378 females Krzeczkowska currently living in Poland:

moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/krzyczkowski.html
moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/krzyczkowska.html

They are distributed here and there, but mostly in Masovia Voivodship, around Warsaw.

Compared to that the same database reports ZERO occurences of Kszyczkowska/Kszyczkowski in contemporary Poland.
The etymology of Krzyczkowski: from already mentioned "krzyk"(noun) and "krzyczeć", but also from Old Polish "krzykwa" (some kind of a plant) and also from the village Krzyczki (Gmina Nasielsk, Nowy Dwór County, Masovian Voivodship). Acually there are several settlements of similar name, close to each other: Krzyczki-Szumne, Krzyczki-Pieniążki, Krzyczki-Żabiczki.

Village Krzyczki is listed as a former sztetl in the Second Republic, but there is no such name as Kszyczki on the same list of sztetls, sztetl.org.pl/en/selectcity/?lts=K.

There is no village Kszyczki in Poland, as far as I know.

So my suggestion is: verify the spelling, or if impossible then start exploring around village Krzyczki and surname Krzyczkowski.
boletus   
27 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

The bizzarre story of Brizardier



The firstborn son of King Jan Sobieski, bearing the name Brizardier, aroused the interest of historians for a long time. His silhouette has blurred, however, firmly in the darkness of history, so that there were even people doubting in his existence. However, it seems that there can be no doubt about him, as his surname surfaced in 1676, when a secret envoy of King Jan Sobieski intervened on his account at King Louis XIV.

Brizardier was the result of a fleeting love affair of Jan Sobieski, who arrived on the Seine during his trip to Europe in June 1646. No one had not yet thought that this seventeen years young man, the son of the castellan of Cracow, in less than thirty years would be crowned Polish King, and that history would even nickname him "the defender of Christianity."

Sobieski settled in Paris at the Hotel de Brisach, which perhaps is the source of the strange name Brizardier. We do not know which one of the Parisian ladies had become his mistress. Rumors of dealing with Marquise de Sévigné should be probably put between fairy tales as the young castellan's son probably did not have access to the topmost French aristocracy. One should rather look for his fleeting mistress among the lower class women employed at the court - perhaps a governess, a dresser or a singer. It is much easier to determine the date of birth of his illegitimate son. Sobieski was in Paris between June 1646 and April 1647, so the boy was most likely born in 1647. Probably the young father he had never seen his son, of whose existence he learned later.

The name Brizardier surfaced in the late sixties of the seventeenth century. The young man was little older than twenty years old and he was a sergeant in the Nantes army. He did not make, however, a military career, as it stood in the way of his passion for libertarian practices. He created a mystical aura around himself, proclaiming of being able to fulfill any wishes of women. The only condition was that a woman had to receive raw penance from him. The fame of the inspired sergeant spread throughout Brittany and he began to receive most illustrious ladies. Among them were Madam President de Magnan, Countess de Kerollin, Miss de Talet, and other aristocrats and wives of local notables. Madam President had asked him to obtain the succession, which involved death of three people, Countess Kerollin had asked him for recipe for gold making, and Miss de Talet for a rich husband.

Brizardier ordered the women to undress and he whipped them with twigs till bleeding. When a candidate for a rich man's wife could not endure the flogging, she called to him, "Monsieur Brizardier, not that much! I would rather have him not that rich."

The inspired sergeant carried his flogging practices until the day when he was exposed by the janitor of the local parliament, certain Bohamont, who noticed his daughters regularly visiting the barracks. Brizardier was put on trial, accused of libertinism, and he faced the gallows. Through the intercession of his clients, Breton ladies aristocrats, he was sentenced to the galleys only. He was not the galley prisoner for long, because his patronesses were granted his pardon and even found a job for him in the Queen's office.

When Jan Sobieski became King of Poland he decided to help his firstborn son, but he did so in such a clumsy manner that it almost led to an international scandal. He sent his trusted envoy to Louis XIV asking for permission to purchase a landed property in France, which would be linked to the title of a prince. No name was mentioned but Louis was convinced that this was meant to be the Polish Queen's father, the Marquis d'Arquien. Imagine his surprise when he learned that the protégé of the Polish king was a modest clerk, working in the office of his wife. But he received a handwritten letter from Sobieski, who explained that Brizardier was a descendant of an ancient Polish family, a relative of the king, and that he, Sobieski, grants his mother the title of the "First Lady of Poland with the golden key".

The distrustful King of France had ordered checking that information and found that the "First Lady of Poland" did not exist. Caught in a lie King John began to wriggle in more lies. He wrote that his request regarding Brizardier was prompted by the Queen of France, from whom he had received a handwritten letter along with her ​​portrait adorned with diamonds. This completely unbelievable story resulted in another investigation by suspicious Louis, who thought that the protégé migh have been the illegitimate son of his wife.

This presumption was obviously absurd, because Brizardier was nine years younger than the Queen. The investigation revealed, however, that the Queen's clerk was a former libertine and a galley slave. It was enough to send the first Sobieski's son to the Bastille. But he was on the loose after a few months, thanks to his connections. He had not a small capital to his disposal at that time, so one should assume that had has received some support from his father.

The Brizardier incident affected the Polish-French relations, as Louis XIV could not forgive Sobieski for his deceptions and refused henceforth to refer to him per "Your Majesty" in their correspondence. The further fate of the royal bastard remains unknown. King John III, at least officially, did not take any more steps associated with this person. The worst looser in this whole story came to be the Sobieski's father in law, Marquis d'Arquien, who never received the princely title from Louis XIV.
boletus   
27 Sep 2012
Genealogy / Genealogy - Domagala family from Poland [4]

I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction. Any information/help given will be much appreciated.

Are you sure your grandfather's surname is DOMAGALA, and not DOMAGA£A - with L with a stroke? It makes a hell of difference for certain search engines, as some are very, very picky and sensitive to details. If the registry office in Zawiercie behaves similarly than you might have spent a lot of time and money for nothing.

Just compare these two maps of distributions of the corresponding surnames:
1. DOMAGA£A: moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/domaga%25C5%2582a.html
18076 - total number of people with the name Domagała in contemporary Poland
610 - City of Kraków
495 - Olkusz County
484 - City of Kielce
482 - Zawiercie County
466 - Sosnowiec County
455 - Kielce County
443 - Pińczów County
431 - City of Wrocław
394 - City of £ódź
357 - Warszawa County
...

2. DOMAGALA: moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/domagala.html
6 - total number of people with the name Domagala in contemporary Poland
2 - Zabrze County
2 - Zawiercie County
1 - Legionowo County
1 - Będzin County

You must see the obvious difference between those two maps. If your granfather's surname is in fact spelled with L-stroke, than it is fine to skip the stroke in searches in Germany or America, but a big no-no in Poland - as those two maps demonstrate.

[A hint: to use Polish extra characters look just above the edit box here]
boletus   
26 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

Yes, we'll got into him as well, the old lecher. :-) One after the other.
Here comes another of bastard offspring of August the Strong:
Frederick Augustus, Count Rutowsky (also written Rutowski) (1702 - 1764) - a Saxon Field Marshal who commanded Saxon forces in the Siege of Pirna during the Seven Years War. He was an illegitimate son of August the Strong, King of Poland and Elector of Saxony, by the Turk Fatima (or Fatime), who was captured during the Battle of Buda (1686) by Hans Adam von Schöning. After she became the King's mistress, she was christened Maria Anna and moved to the Dresden court.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Augustus_Rutowsky

Jan Jerzy, Johann Georg, Chevalier de Saxe (1704-1774), also called Johann Georg of Saxony, was a Saxon Field Marshal and Governor of Dresden.

He was an illegitimate son of August the Strong, King of Poland and Elector of Saxony, and Ursula Katharina of Altenbockum, by marriage Princess Lubomirska and later created Princess of Teschen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Georg,_Chevalier_de_Saxe

Maria Anna Katharina Rutowska (1706-1746)[2] was a Polish noblewoman.
She was the illegitimate daughter of Polish king Augustus II the Strong and his mistress, the Turk Fatima or Fatime, later renamed Maria Anna of Spiegel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Katharina_Rutowska

August the Strong had many more mistresses, one of which was Anna Konstancja von Brockdorf "Cosel" (1680-1765) - wife of Saxon minister Adolf von Hoym. She bore him three children;

daughter Augusta Anna Konstancja Cosel (1708-1728) - married name Friesen
daughteer Fryderyka Aleksandra Cosel (1709-1784) - married Moszyńska
sone Fryderyk August Cosel (1712-1770)

That's more or less all that wikipedias know about - not mentioning the other 290. Uff!
boletus   
26 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

Here comes my translation of a summary of the article:
Parada bękartów. Nieślubne dzieci polskich władców do końca XVII wieku, Michael Morys-Twarowski.
(Parade of bastards. Illegitimate children of Polish rulers until the end of 17th c.)
histmag.org/?id=3791

You will notice that not much was usually said about bastards [in Poland]. They are mentioned scarcely in the sources. We do not even know much about offsprings of the very amorous Casimir the Great apart from the fact that he mentioned his two natural sons in his will.

The situation changes in the sixteenth century, when - according to European standards - the rulers admitted to illegitimate children and protected them their future. A century later (Counter-Reformation), again, despite the greater number of sources, if it was not for the adventurous lives of Count Vasenau and Brisacier, we would not know anything about the natural children of our rulers.

The breakthrough came in the first half of the eighteenth century. The offspring of Augustus II the Strong proudly entered national and European salons, becoming a kind of equivalent of today's celebrities. Those were very different times. Marshal Mauricy Saski or Countess Anna Orzelska were positioned way above the earlier royal bastards suspended in a vacuum. On the one hand - because of their royal father they had been associated with the top layer of the society, but on the other hand - their illegitimacy pushed them down to the very bottom.

A spectacular picture of this dichotomy is a problem with the names of illegitimate children of our monarchs. Sometimes they are known by the term "syn króla" (son of the king), and sometimes they took a surname close to the ancestral surname. Such problem has even affected Jan, the son of Zygmunt Stary (Sigismund the Old). He was not known as Jan Jagiellończyk (John of Jagiellon) but as Jan z Ksiażąt Litewskich (Jan of the Dukes of Lithuania).

Parade of bastards. Illegitimate children of Polish rulers until the end of 17th c., Michael Morys-Twarowski.
When comparing the amount of illegitimate offspring of Polish and French kings, then our rulers presents rather poorly. You have to remember again that statistic overstates Augustus II the Strong, the father almost half of Polish bastards. Among the illegitimate children of Polish rulers we have bishops, counts and countess, various kinds rioters, and even the tax collector ...

histmag.org/Parada-bekartow.-Nieslubne-dzieci-polskich-wladcow-do-konca-XVII-wieku-3791

Not much is known about them, and they were variously treated, depending on the period - ranging from shameful anonymity to a status comparable with that of today's celebrities.

One of them was Herman Maurycy Saski (fr. Maurice de Saxe) (1696 -1750), Marshall and later Marshall General of France. Maurice was born at Goslar, an illegitimate son of August the Strong, King of Poland and Elector of Saxony, and the Countess Maria Aurora of Königsmarck. He was the first of eight extramarital children whom August acknowledged, although as many as 354 are claimed by sources, including Wilhelmine of Bayreuth, to have existed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_de_Saxe

Another was Countess Anna Karolina Orzelska (1707-1769) - an adventuress and Polish noblewomen, the illegitimate daughter of August II the Strong, Elector of Saxony and King of Poland and Henriette Rénard, a wine merchant from Lyon running his business in Warsaw. On 19 September 1724, August the Strong officially acknowledged Anna Karolina as his daughter and gave her the title of Countess Orzelska (Polish: Hrabina Orzelska, German: Gräfin Orzelska).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karolina_Orzelska

to be continued - by anyone who wants to chip in
boletus   
25 Sep 2012
Language / Which is harder: Pole learning Russian or Russian learning Polish language? [57]

A Pole learning Russian has to overcome umpteen false friends,

This "wikibooks" page contains a jumpstart table of False Friends of the Slavist. From here you can select pages with False Friends for any pair of Slavic languages. For example, this is a page of False Friends of the Slavist/Russian-Polish,

en.wikibooks.org/wiki/False_Friends_of_the_Slavist/Russian-Polish

Zwodnicze słowa polskie i rosyjskie, Русско-польские ложные друзья переводчика. It consists of 137 such pairs, for example:

R. дворец => Pol. pałac 'palace'
Pol. dworzec => R. вокзал 'railway station'

R. диван => Pol. kanapa 'settee, sofa'
Pol. dywan => R. ковёр 'carpet'

They also present so-called semasiological maps for all such pairs. For example, the map for Turkish divan shows that only Polish and Belarusian languages use it in a carpet sense, Macedonian does not recognize it, and all other Slavic languages use it in a sofa sense. In addition this word has secondary meaning of a talk in the three South Slavic countries: Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Serbia.

What do this three words - carpet, sofa, talk - have in common? Well the Turkish "divan" translates to Polish as "rada, sobór", council in English. So this is the place where men sit down on something soft: a sofa or a carpet; and they talk.

^^
I forgot to attach the wiki links to divan-council and divan-furniture.
boletus   
23 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

Yes, that's what I thought of, thank you.

But it is generally allowed that the baton is placed across the arms of bastards as an abatement, without which they cannot bear their paternal coats

Each coat of arms has a right and left (i.e. dexter and sinister) heraldic side, a observed by the person carrying the shield.

He explains how dexter is positive side and that the figures are always turned that way when representing some positive qualities. The figures of, e.g. slain enemies (e.g. dragons, boars) face to sinister. The orientation depends on the story the figure represents. Dexter is also named "masculine" side and sinister "feminine". Also notes that this does not have to be so in Christian coats of arms of modern times.

A slanted beams, bendlets and saches going from top sinister to bottom dexter represent coats of arms of bastard children.

crwflags.com/fotw/flags/heraldry.html
boletus   
23 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

bar sinister?

Possibly, the wikipedia confirms it, but only after it redirects it first to "baton sinister". I'll try to look around Polish heraldry pages, since they used something different than bar/baton/bend (if I remember it right).

I also found some critique of the expression "bar sinister" here:
heraldry.sca.org/laurel/wrong.html
1. Wording. There is no such thing as a "bar sinister" in heraldry. A bar is a narrow horizontal stripe, so there is no way for it to be sinister. [In fact "bar" is a corruption of French "barre" (referred in 2 below), as playfully made up by Sir Walter Scott. No wonder heraldry experts do not like this term.]

2. Secondly there are several different marks of illegitimacy. For example some acknowledged bastards of the French crown, had the "bendlet sinister couped overall", also called a "baton sinister".
boletus   
23 Sep 2012
History / Polish Royal Bastards [23]

This thread is inspired by this article in Polish "Parada bękartów. Nieślubne dzieci polskich władców do końca XVII wieku"

The word "bastard" sometimes seemed like a badge of honour.

Anthony (1421-1504), known to his contemporaries as "the bastard of Burgundy" or "the Grand Bastard - le grand bâtard" - was the natural son (and second child) of Philip III, Duke of Burgundy, and one of his mistresses, Jeanne de Presle.

/wiki/Antoine,_bastard_of_Burgundy

He was a close friend of his half-brother, Charles the Bold. I still own a historical novel, which describes the growth and downfall of Kingdom of Burgundy (today's Burgundy + Belgium and the Netherlands) and all the terrible losses of Charles the Bold, culminating with his terrible death at Nancy, during his wars against Suisse Confederation and Lorraine. Anthony was with Charles in most of his military campaigns, including the last battle at Nancy. So much for the bastard.

Then there was an issue of typical surnames given to bastards. Most of them were prefixed with "Fitz" - a mispronunciation of French "fils", meaning "son of". That often implied a bastard scion of aristocratic family. A special attention should be given to FitzRoy, derived from "fils de roi", a son of the king, and later - a bastard son of the king. One acknowledged royal bastard was Henry FitzRoy the son of kIng Henry VIII and his teenage mistress Elizabeth Blount.

Some experts on "Fitz-" surnames make one possible exception saying this:

Fitzpatrick is the only name of strictly Gaelic origin.

Bastards were usually given their father's coat of arms, but somehow transformed, which indicated some sort of depletion, easy to be recognized (There is a special word for it, which I do not remember right now). The second generation of original bastards would try to get their own coat of arms, independent of the original one.
boletus   
23 Sep 2012
Life / Typical for the Poloniandists [171]

It's a word used by particularly dumb Polish-Americans who insist that it's a Polish word for grandmother, despite not one of them managing to prove its existence in any Polish dictionary. The closest we came was discovering the use in Kashubian, which isn't Polish.You'll find lots of examples of PF of the word being used.

No son, you are deliberately lying once again. You are conveniently omitting a whole bunch of regions in Poland proper, which use the cursed B-word in a hypocoristic form. You are conveniently ignoring a hard research work of several people that have proven you wrong and who have discovered that the B-word still exists in various dialectal/hypocoristic forms in Poland proper. No amount of shouting and demagogic arm twisting will change that facts.

p3undone, please see this thread, but concentrate only on the straight facts, provided by the links in the specific messages of cyga, boletus and Porzeczka. Those are the links to scientific works, dialectal dictionaries and online sources:

+ cyga message #246: First mentions the usage of B-word in Stare and Nowe Kramsko, Lubus Land

+ boletus messages 224, 235, 255: Show links to various papers and online dictionaries which refer to that cursed B-word as appearing in various forms in

- Kociewie region: eastern part of Tuchola Forest
- Lubus Land: villages Nowe Kramsko, Stare Kramsko, Wielkie Podmokla and Małe Podmokla.
- Krajna region, between rivers Noteć, Brda, Gwda
- Regions of Wieluń Masurian dialect: left bank of Noteć (Wieleń and Krzyż), right bank of Warta (Wronki)

+ Porzeczka message #278: shows links to various papers and dialectal dictionaries, where the B-word is used in hypocoristic form in various regions

- Kociewie, Tuchola, Krajna, Chelmno, north Wilekopolska.
- Krajna, Tuchola Forest
- Borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland and old Kalisz voivodship
- Wieleń, Lubus Land

I must say delphiandomine that - because of all the excesses of you two bubbas have demonstrated in this thread - you have lost all the credibility you once have had in my eyes. I used to considered you quite useful in combating excesses on the ultra right on the PF spectrum. But I do not think so any more. For once, your crusade against "busia" is fecking childish and frankly boring. As the Poles say on both sides of the Atlantic: "czepiasz się jak pijany płotu" (you stick to "busia" like a drunk to a fence), or better yet - "przyczepiłeś się jak rzep do psiego ogona" (you are like a burr attached to a dog's tail) to a totally innocent dialectal form.

you must admit - anyone using the word "Busia" or similar is worthy of being called dumb

Frankly, what do you think about anyone coming with the logic like that? How they should be called? Foolish? Silly?

I am not going to touch for a moment your multiple violations of the Forum guidelines in this thread. I might do so though if I you are going to continue your nasty way here in this thread. I'll just stick to your basic flaws of character for a moment. So lying is first. Twisting the facts to fit your own agenda is another. When FlaglessPole gave the example of his father as a "celebrated Polonian", you backpedaled and graciously renamed him as real Pole, rather than Polonian. Heck, I remember you graciously giving me the same honour as well in some other thread. But no, thank you so much, I do not fecking care for your labels. And I do not care for your foolish generalizations based on "busia" or whatever. If you want to call me moronic, unpatriotic, racist, antisemitic, narrow minded, a mongrel ( Harry's quote moved to trash as #3307: "unknown blend European blood of just Ukrainian") peasant, basement dweller - so be it. It just shows how nasty, racist, hateful, illogical and mentally disturbed demagogue you are.
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

boletus,Google translate won't translate that first link into English..

Are you talking about Chrome browser? I think it offers to translate entire pages only if they are formatted as HTML. The source I sent you is in PDF format. But since it is searchable; that is, it not just an image of a text, you can still translate it, fragment by fragment, by pasting them to the box translate.google.com.
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

This is a good good question, but partially easy to answer. Before 966, the land of Polans was of no interest to Romans, as it did not lie at that time on any major trade route. Nothing could be recorded in Poland before 966, until the first clergy arived, with ability to read and write - obviously in Latin. Earlier sources are only of the foreign origin, such a chronicle of Ibrahim ibn Jakub (Ibrâhîm ibn Ya`qûb) (961-962), who visited Poland during Mieszko I reign.

The further explanation is taken from a paper in Polish The origin of Poland in a new light by Prof. dr hab. Tomasz Jasiński, Uniwersytet im. Adama Mickiewicza, Instytut Historii, Poznań .

First fuller mentions of tribes from or near Poland come from "Bavarian Geographer", a 9th c. source from monastery of St. Emmeram in Regensburg (Czech Řezno, Polish Ratyzbona), Bawaria. It lists tribes, including number of strongholds or regions. Some of such names are very readable and recognizable:

18 - Goplanie (Kuiavian region), 33 - Lędzianie (East of Lesser Poland), 48 - Wiślanie (Lessar Poland) , 49 - Ślężanie (Wrocław region), 51 - Dziadoszanie (near Głogów); 57 - Opolanie and 58 - Gołęszycy (near Racibórz).

But that list does not mention Polanie, which have puzzled the historians for decades. The answer apparently was found recently, with the help of natural sciences.

The oldest mention about Mieszko I was written about year 1000, by a Saxon chronicler Widukind from bendictine monastery Corvey near Höxter. It mentions battles between Mieszko I and graf Wichman in year 963.

Gero returned Wichman back to the barbarians, from where he got him. He, being welcomed by them, destroyed the barbarians living further away during his many attacks. He defeated Prince Mieszko, a ruler of Slavs who call themselves Licicaviki, two times, killed his brother and snatched from him a great booty.

More information about beginning of Poland comes from dendrochronology.
[Example: Now we know for sure that most of the trees used to built Biskupin stronghold were cut down between 738 and 737 BC. This has nothing to do with the beginning of Poland; it just illustrates accuracy of the method]

Based on 1999 explorations we now know that most of the strongholds in Greater Poland are younger than previously thought. Gniezno stronghold was built in 940 (not in 800s), so it is younger than Mieszko I himself, probably born in 935.

Today we know that the beginnings of Giecz, Moraczewo and probably Poznań are dated at around 850s. Several strongholds were being erected around Gniezno Uplands, incrementally so to speak: A powerfull stronghold in Grzybów about 915-922 (many times improved upon and expaned after that), a stronghold at Ląd just after 926, and at Bnin - before 934. That was an evolutional process.

Situation changed in between 930-940. New strongholds were built in 940 in Bnin, Giecz, Ląd. In 939-942 Grzybów was expanded for the last time. The second stronghold in Poznań was very probably built in about 940.

So five new strongholds were built in 940, protected from north, west and south by the rivers Noteć, Wełna and Warta. All oak trees were cut down from the Gniezno Upland. The hypothesis is that the reason for building so many strongholds in such a short time must have been caused by a sense of a great danger. What kind of danger? In 940, German King Otto I crushed the great uprising of the Elbe Slavs. They mutinied in 936, in aliance with Czechs, at the time of intronisation of Otto I.

That felt like a great danger: "we could be next", but not only coming from Saxony but also from Bohemia. This is why Mieszko decided to join the Christianity: to neutralize both and to knock out the argument of necessity to convert Polish pagans by sword. But before he did so Mieszko I expanded enough to assure safe border for his new kingdom.

The dendrochronology proves that incorporation of south and south-west Great Poland, as well Sieradz and £ęczyca - and probably Kuiawy, Mazovia and Gdansk Pomerania - was done in 950s. In addition, new strongholds were built, which replaced the old ones, destroyed during previous wars.

When Poland was first mentioned in 960s in first written documents Mieszko I fought with Welets and their allies Wolinians.


  • Poland about 940
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

Was it because they didn't really keep records then?Not that it's really important,but I'm just curios.

The oldest historical documents are those of Gallus Anonymus chronicle (1112-1118) and Wincenty Kadłubek chronicle (around 1190-1208), written way after the reign of early Piasts. They both include the mythological stories about ancestors of Mieszko I.
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Food / can I find curd and sour cream in Poland? [24]

Twaróg or Zsiadłe mleko

They are two different products. Twaróg is "quark",
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(cheese)
often incorrectly translated as "cottage cheese", or "curd cheese". In Canada it is sometimes refered to as "farmer's cheese". On the linked page you will see two pictures of quark. Most people I know prepare the creamy version of "twaróg" themselves by adding some spring onions, salt and sour cream.

Images of "twaróg"

"Zsiadłe mleko", "skwaszone mleko", "kwaśne mleko" is translated as "soured milk", as opposed to "sour milk", which means spoiled milk.

Soured milk is obtained through natural fermentation of fresh, non-pasteurized milk.
images of "zsiadłe mleko"

Warning: The commercial fresh milk is usually pasteurized and as an effect it never sours naturally, but become peptonized - resulting in fouly smelling, bitter testing, even toxic stuff.
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

or, in fact, people who advise you should consider - that the early Piast era neither comprises the middle Piast era nor does it comprise the late Piast era.

If this is the reference to myself then my answer is that p3undone evidently read about Casimir the Great, the last of Poland's Piasts - as it is evidenced by his questions. Are you referring to Silesian Piasts or Pomeranian Piasts by any chance? Those are nice subjects by themselves, but they are outside a cursory look at the history of Poland.

Something eating you, Ziemowit? I will gladly let you take a lead in tutoring. :-)
boletus   
21 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

boletus,what would you recommend for the next chapter in Polish history?

The obvious and natural step is to read about Jagiellonians - a dynasty that originated in Lithuania and which ruled Poland and Lithuania from 1386 to 1572 in the form of personal dynastic union between the two countries. The union was strengthen and refined by various specific unions in years 1385, 1401, 1432-1434, 1499, 1501. That period predated the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania, which was established in 1576 by the Union of Lublin.

Members of the Jagiellonian dynasty were Grand Dukes of Lithuania (1377-1392 and 1440-1572), Kings of Poland (1386-1572), Kings of Hungary (1440-1444 and 1490-1526), and Kings of Bohemia (1471-1526).

There are many good history books that treat Jagiellonian period quite extensively - including Norman Davies books (I don't care for Harry's biased opinions; those are actually good books), Zamoyski's, or £ukowski's concise history. However, I cannot recommend anything concise enough, which is available online, other than various wikipedia articles. But you may want to start with this article, which describes the international exhibition (Czech Republic, Germany, Poland) celebrating the Jagiellonian Dynasty:

Europa Jagiellonica, Art and Culture in Central Europe under the Reign of the Jagiellonian Dynasty 1386-1572
uni-leipzig.de/~gwzo/images/GWZO_images/Verschiedenes/AJAG_eng.pdf
boletus   
20 Sep 2012
Language / Which is harder: Pole learning Russian or Russian learning Polish language? [57]

There are people who have "deaf ear", or as a Polish saying goes: "an elephant must have stepped on their ear". Russian is more musical than Polish because it uses movable stress; in Polish stress is most of the time put on the penultimate syllable.

This is a Russian course for the beginners, which I participated in long time ago.
Our aging lector, "Babuszka": Mister Mróz, say "máma".
Our friend "Kazik Mróz" for whatever reason thinks that the stress is actually put on the last syllable: mamá
Babuszka: máma
Kazik: mamá
Babuszka: máma
The whole class in unison: mamá !!
boletus   
20 Sep 2012
Life / Polish vs British vs American - Clash of cultures [390]

They are still more expensive than PC, but they do not cost a fortune anymore. However, I always pay a fortune for my computers, regardless what operating system it is. For me they are the tools, not just toys, so I always need and pay some extra. My first computer cost me CDN $ 13,000 - almost as much as my first car, Toyota Tercel ($7000 + 25% interest rate). It had 4 Mb extra memory (yes, megabytes, not gigabytes, not terabytes) and 1 Mb cost then 860 Canadian dollars. People criticized me then: why do you need so much memory, and what is this sh1t about email and FTP? :-)

I was a long time user of Linux and I only switched to Apple because I have become lazy. With Linux I was a user + an administrator 100% of the time, with Apple I am just a user. The command "uptime", displayed right now on my onscreen terminal, shows that I have been running this machine for 31 days, 19:29 hours without rebooting. I usually reboot with some system-related upgrades, not when I just add new browser or some other such application. That's lazy for you.
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Life / Polish vs British vs American - Clash of cultures [390]

If some photos don`t load after opening the page, click the refresh button F5.

Just a wee reminder: not everyone lives in the Microsoft world. :-)
In OSX the corresponding default shortcut is Command + R, but you can reassign F5 to do this as well in your System Preferences >> Keyboard Shortcuts >> Keyboard & Text input. My F5 does something more useful, Pawian. :-)
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Language / Polish words with consecutive identical letters? [17]

Some more examples: dzienny, codzienny, poranny, ścienny,

O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny
I pluszcze jednaki, miarowy, niezmienny,
Dżdżu krople padają i tłuką w me okno...
Jęk szklanny... płacz szklanny... a szyby w mgle mokną
I światła szarego blask sączy się senny...
O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny...
- Deszcz Jesienny, Leopold Staff
[Well, I exaggerated a bit changing "szklany" to "szklanny", but this is how I imagine the archaic words were created: słonny, płonny. Sounds better to me :-o]

I can't really think of any Polish words like that, so can you suggest some?

There's no oo, uu, yy, aa, ee in Polish words, the only one that I can think of is zoologia - a borrowing.

Actually, when you look hard enough there is hardly any letter that cannot be used in pairs.
oo: a bunch of words involving compounds, such as czteroosiowy, akustooptyczny, jednoosiowy. Really a lot
uu: ewaluujący, dwuuszna, instruujący, konstruując, perpetuum. Mostly adopted foreign words.
aa: ałmaacka, kanaański, zaadoptować, zaabonować, zaakceptować. A long list of zaa...
ee: deelektryzacja, deeskalacja, dee..., nieedukacyjny. A long list with niee...

And here comes a secret tool:
scrabble.krzyzowki.info

In the entry field enter the pattern: %dd% , where % stands for any number of characters, and the program will spit out a long list of the words with double "d".
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

Do you agree that Casimir lll had the greatest impact on Poland after Mieszko during the early era.

We all do. He is not called Great for nothing:-)
What a relief to get something united after so many years of fragmentation. However he lost Silesia and West Pomerania forever. And he watched the Teutonic Knights becoming stronger and stronger. But kids are taught in schools that he "zastał Polskę drewnianą, zostawił murowaną" - He found Poland made of wood, and he left her made of brick.
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Life / Poland and every aspect..... Please help me learn and understand the realities? [108]

I read the source provided by boletus and it was pretty informative,but it seems to me there was a lot they had to surmise.

There are some, yes. But if you want to go one step above this concise history try wikipedia's History of Poland during Piast dynasty. Armed with you synthetic knowledge you already have you will find a bit more details and - first of all - maps. The style is of course very boring. :-)
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

Either those or pink elephants. I am sober, I swear. :-)
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Genealogy / Galetka, Martin - married to an Elizabeth; I believe Klil - last name not sure of [14]

I am told all chruch records from this area are not released to government institutions or peoples and will not be ever available to public (at least in this point of time - they remain in the respective parishes.

I do not know any particulars about this area but generally many church records have been photocopied (by US Mormons for example) and placed in private or state archives, or moved entirely to state archives. Since the parish books in £apsze Wyżne have a long history (1655) and seem to be well protected the parish may as well want to continue this way.

But there are several projects where volunteers index the data from parish to parish, digitize indices and place them in public domain. This means that you can see your ancestor name there and some other details, but for the copy of the baptist or marriage certificate you still have to go either to the parish itself (and they show you which one it is) or to the state archives. Some such projects are "Poznan Project" (not your area of interest) and "Geneteka", which generally covers Małopolska province, but not this particular region of yours. Another such project "Pradziad" do not handle the £apsze Wyżne either.

So your only course of action is to do your search in situ, at the parish. This is why I attached the contact information for you. Since it is hard to do any long distance search you should find yourself a proxy person in Poland, close to £apsze if possible. Part of the search would be to find out what was a real name of Martin: Gelatka/Galetka, etc. This takes time. Nobody is going to do this sort of stuff for you voluntarily - just because you placed your appeal here, unless - with incredible luck that you might have - somebody is currently searching the parish books in £apsze Wyżne for their own purpose and is willing to handle your task as well.

A crazy suggestion: One of those schoolgirls that I previously listed might find it interesting to play a role of a little genealogist for you. She should be easy to find via gymnasium she attends. Or you may ask the priest via email about other suggestions. He might have some candidate. There might be some data protection issue, so you might need to provide some relationship proof. But historical records are usually open to public, meaning I can search any XYZ family and do not have to be in any relation to it - at least those in the state archives.
boletus   
19 Sep 2012
Life / Typical for the Poloniandists [171]

It seems you got infected with the cancer of communism......

You know my points of view on many issues, pawian. But look back - this thread is really pointless and stupid. It serves nobody any good. Really.
boletus   
18 Sep 2012
Food / The great British teabag hunt thread [66]

Buy a good loose leaf Assam and brew it in a pot.
No paper bag stuff can match it.

I second it. I just run out of HYLEYS (Ceylon tea from the planter) - tea Scottish pekoe. Big leaf stuff.This one is from export to Russia I guess, because all the writing is mostly in Russian, and I bought it in a little "mydło i powidło" Russian store that imports stuff from CE Europe. But this is because I am too lazy to go downtown and shop in one of those huge tea shops. My Chinese friends taught me something how to distinguish good leaves from the old: by smell, by colour, etc.
boletus   
18 Sep 2012
History / Surveillance in Poland during communism [29]

Actually, the facts speak for themselves. An AK-member making such a post-war career, getting a fine apartment in elitist Żoliborz and his sons 1. appearing on TV (yes I know in a childrens' program, but the fact they could do it) and later the same sons were able to study and later on during the hard times led a comfortable life.

Still just an allegation. I think sofjufka gave somewhere quite a rational explanation: you restore the apartment building and you get the flat as a reward. Many pre-war owners of "kamienica" were put in a similar position: do the maintenance of the building and we will let you stay in one flat.