Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Dziękuję, Krzysku!

'Szybkiego wyzdrowienia...' jest lepiej, zrozumiem, że pierwsza część zdania jest błąda.

As far as humility, I might correct your English in as far as your own paragraph also has a number of errors.-:)

Na zdrowie!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Bodmer's 'The Loom of Language' (original German title: 'Sprachen der Welt') reports a mere -:) LOL one-hundred-and-seventy-nine multiple verb conjugations, i.e classes, in ancient Sanskrit!!!

That may be a record. I'm not sure though. Paging Mr. Guiness!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

No czujesz się lepiej, Magdo! Teraz wszystko porządku a wciągle porozmawiamy o
język polski, o 'trudny język polski'. --:) LOL

Never take what I post personally. It's all done for effect. Actually, I rather enjoy the exchange. Imagine, sparing with a real Pole. The idea is quite appealing. don't you think?

Do siego razu!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Oj, Magdo, Magdo!! Bardzo mi przykro. I wasn't suggesting that you were sending out pollution. You misunderstood me. If anything, I was/am blaming the slovenliness of US education which trains its pupils so poorly in their mother language, not to even mention a foreign language, that the rest of the planet merrily follows our lead, unquestioningly mimicking everything we do or say, the way we dress (or undress, as the case may be) etc., with no sound yardstick of aethetic judgement, i.e. if it's from Hollywood, it's got to be good! -:)--:) LOL

Perhaps the Poles could stand a little more 'Hollyłódź', and a little less of the former.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

British and American, Pipeczko, have variant spellings, as I'm sure you're well aware. 'organize' vs. 'organise', 'practice'/'practise' etc...

Magda, a "rough ride"??? (Chuckle! -:) I hardly think so, considering the "arrogant" treatment we well-intentioned Yanks get abroad, every time we endeavor to point out a thing or two regarding English grammar, often so gleefully mutilated by others.

Wouldn't hurt us Americans either to instill a little more language pride into ourselves. If you send out pollution into the air, you'll get the same foul air right back in your face, kind of like blowing smoke at someone. Now that's not nice, is it??

"Arrogant"? I've been called a lot worse, thank you! Why yesterday, someone called me a Republican!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Człowieka niełatwo zrozumieć = Der Mensch ist kaum zu verstehen. = People are hard to figure.

Tak jest, Magdo! --:)

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

....If one is needed, yes, certainly!

Dla poprawienia znajdujemy się tutaj! = That's what we're here for! = Dazu sind wir da!

Conversely, should you require/request correction (in English not in Polish LOL!!!!!!!), I too shall abstain until further notice.

My, if only all such multi-cultural exchanges could be this pleasant.

I teach multi-cultural studies as well as translation in New York.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Whose 'my' are 'we' referring to here? LOL

Magda, wreszcie zgadzam się z twoim zdaniem: Człowiek niełatwy rozumieć!! -:)

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

...I mean simply, that we Yanks, educated as many of us are, are for whatever reason not encouraged to correct, say, French tourists visiting or travelling here in the States. The latter, on the other hand, take the greatest pride, often in belittling in the guise of 'correcting' our conserted efforts to speak good French. They may mangle our pronounciation so that it's no longer recognizable to it closest living realtives, we though, must hook every cedilla and sharpen every accent aigu.

Just attempting to even the score, that's all.

In addition, there are many out there who are seemingly immune to 'organic learning', that is learning by example. Either they psychologically resist the correct model, be it vocabulary, grammar, spelling whatnot, or they are just plain incapable of learning. I say then, "Face it!" I speak your language better than you speak mine! Give it a rest!" (....but without SAYING the last sentence, of course!)

Is language which is 'evolving' in a downward spiral, more like 'devolving', really doing nothing other than 'eroding'??

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

I haven't either. Why then do many foreign native speakers treat US in our own home turf as though it were a classroom?? Doesn't seem quite equitable now, does it?

I'm fine with people not knowing....so long as they realize it and are curious about knowing more, be it sports scores, philology or sex!!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

..and what then is 'communication' other than the fluent, at the same time, accurate, transfer of ideas? Nobody's even speaking about 'perfection'!!! -:)

If person A from Albania can't effectively understand person B from Lithuania, is this real 'communication', or more accurately, 'approximation'?

Think of all that's being missed by the former definitions of communication, the more the very standards of language, in this case English language, become eroded?!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

"Perfect English is not the goal......"

Guess what, Magda, I couldn't agree with you more!!! So why then, at least in my extensive experience both at home and abroad, do soooo many foreign tourists as well as English-speaking natives of European countries, even from Spain, whose inhabitants are notoriously poor in learning foreign languages, adamantly, often arrogantly, resist even the most unobtrusive of corrections whenever I've endeavored to 'level the playing field'?? Is it really always a guest/host relationship or something else I'm missing?

The response I've usually gotten has been "Oh, my English is good enough, I think! But your ___________ needs a lot of work!"

A more helpful answer would be: "Oh, I know my English will never be as good as yours, but I enjoy practicing my skills. Appreciate when you correct me sometimes. We're always grateful when foreigners speak our language well ...!" or words to that effect.

Indeed, what are we all doing in this forum, but honing our respective languages?

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Darius, the 'unofficial' language of NYC has been broken English for more decades than I care to admit! I often don't understand the corner grocer either, and English IS my first language, more or less. Unfortunately for me, my Pashto, Punjabi and Bangla are rather rusty.-:)-:) LOL

My last time in the UK, mid-nineties or something, I remember a sign over a London dry-cleaner "BROKEN ENGLISH SPOKEN PERFECTLY!" I still have a snapshot of it. I just had to go inside and enquire as to how fluent the chap running the shop was in 'broken English'. Not only didn't he get my question, his quite native-born Anglo-Brit shop assistant was highly unamused and so much as told me to go to blazes.

Funny, eh? (he-he)

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Again, there will continue to be those gifted exceptions. They are however, NOT the rule, I can assure you!

When I was first starting out years ago as a translator/simultaneous interpreter, I was of course asked my 'native' tongue(s). I replied quite naturally, English and German. I was then put through a ferocious (or 'grueling', if you wish LOL) battery of verbal as well as written tests, arrogant chap as I was perceived, to be able to translate INTO the source, rather than the target, language!! Shame on me for lying!, was the thinking there.

When I passed with flying colors, I was ruefully permitted to slowly join the ranks of the office staff......only because I was able to successfully prove my bilingualism. When I then asked innocently if I might translate a short, but vital document INTO Swedish, a language for which I couldn't prove mother tongue abilities, the boss sneered "Please, Mr. Pajdo, don't make us laugh!!"

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

(paraphrasing Chruchill)...If you were my client, I'd let you have 'er! -:) LOL

Darius,

I'm afraid you're flat wrong! A 'fortnight' IS two weeks! Ask Seanus. -:)-:)

I might agree, Darius, that there are instances in which someone, take your daughter, is so highly gifted that they can in fact translate into a second language, not their bilingual 'second' mother tongue, such as I with German.

Teaching though, is another matter entirely. Perhaps the reason why almost every non-native English speaker has such a lifelong accent in English, is that their first English instructor, without exception, was probably a native of their mother country, not the UK, US or Canada. Here in the States, to be a state-certified German, Spanish or French teacher, native fluency is required. Sufficient pull however, could smooth the way in any employment situation, so naturally, some non-native French, German or Spanish instructors at the pre-college level do slip through the cracks! -:)

I might also add here that therefore the standards of junior and high-school foreign language instruction in the US are on a higher level than most English study in Europe, as our insistance on native language quality assurance is frequently a matter of law! Not every Tom, Dick and Harry who imagines themselves supremely talented in languages, despite degrees and studies, is allowed to, for my part, even capable, of teaching a second language on all but the most rudimentary level!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

....and quite satisfactorily indeed! Jestem zadowalony z twoim zdaniem a zgadzam się z wieloma innymi rczeczami, które mówiłas!!

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

...and I in New York, congrats! -:)

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Seanus,

A 'fortnight' means two weeks, from 'fourteen nights', used exclusively in British English.

Magdalena!

Don't mean to be rude still, but if your clients are resp, Finns, Bulgarians, Germans or other Poles, how would they know if your English skills are what you claim? Therefore, not such a good test. -:) LOL

Oh ,yes. Pardon me, there was the great Polish-born exception to everything: Joseph Conrad, who learned English while in his twenties, yet was perhaps the master prose stylist in the 19th century English novel, along with Thomas Hardy. And English was NOT his first language. A true genius. Rest in peace, Panie Joźiu!!

I could give so many instances of mangled English done in the name of pluralism.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Magda!

Please, be my guest. Impress me. I'd honestly look forward to being proven wrong. I'm at panlech31@yahoo. I'll be happy to e-mail back my corrections for practice too! Incidentally, I'd use you to translate into Polish, your mother tongue, noooo problem.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Magda,

I haven't read the quality of your translations into English or heard the quality of your interpreting into English, but based on your posts, I wouldn't let you translate for me into English for free, much less for pay! -:) Sorry.

By the way, I translate INTO German, but only because I grew up bilingual. You didn't, obviously.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Witaj, Magdo!

True enough what you say re: translators. I am one. Unfortunately, often times Poles and other Europeans use native translators INTO English, rather than hiring a native English speaker such as myself for the same job because they're simply too darn cheap to pay the extra expense on a quality job! That's the bottom line, I'm afraid.

However, do they really 'communicate' or actually 'miscommunicate' with the rest of the continent by using faulty English??

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

'wyraz' is also related to 'wyrazenie', meaning 'expression'. As a fellow "Anglophone", but in my case bilingual with German, I can clearly understand your point of view with regard to Polish. I began learning Polish, my first Slavic language, at around age thirty. Somehow, I seemed to absorb this fascinating and immensely beautiful, tongue fairly quickly. I'm still occasionally challenged by the aspect system, haven't quite developed the ear for natural-sounding idiom and slang either, but consider myself as having the fluency of a solid intermediate.

Polish, like German, is of course, like any language, incredibly practical! Finding a Pole or a German with my level of English, even my level in their language, especially German, is rather like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack!

Many European companies too have typically used non-native English speakers to edit their English texts which they send internationally to clients all over the world, hence further reeinforcing the mistakes made respectively by German, Polish native speakers etc. who doggedly insist on writing in English instead of their mother language.

Language / Use of A/An/The ...... Articles [186]

But where Polish, like other Slavic languages, has neither a definite nor indefinite article even roughly equivalent to 'a'/'an'/'the' in English, Polish does have 'to', 'ta' (feminine) and 'ten' (masculine) translating to 'this' or sometimes 'that'. Example: 'Kto jest TEN pan?' =Who is this gentleman? or 'TO było przyjemny pobyt!' = This has been a lovely stay! etc.

Language / Idiomatic Polish [65]

Krzysztof,

You're right, of course! I thought I'd misquoted, but I wasn't sure. I meant more idiomatic expressions such as the type you've described.

Language / Idiomatic Polish [65]

Spity jak bela = drunk as a skunk

Taki kram, taki sam! = As the master, so his servant.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Cute one, bubba. HA!! LOL

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

'German language has a specific word for everything....'

Polish has more specificity, that's true, but there are exceptions, e.g. "ćma" = shadow, death's head moth, skull and cross bones etc..

Although Bubba Woo's example of "Ausfahrt" (exit) vs. "ausfahrt" (to break wind) is plain wrong! Our good 'ol Anglo-Saxon word "fart" comes from German "furzen", no connection at all to "ausfahrt", anyway, a conjugated verb form, rather than a noun.

Trust though the latter was intended as a "double entendre"! -:) -:)

I misswrote my last post! What I meant was that, in fact, Polish is LESS specific than German!! -:) sorry, guys.

Language / The Polish language - it's bloody hard! [210]

Southern,
Ennt ze tschairm'nss ssink zey shpeek maatsch better in Inglisch zenn zey duu!

Poles seem far less arrogant to me regarding the level of English they speak than do most German or Dutch speakers. Listen carefully, especially to a very young Dutchman, speaking English, and one'd think one were hearing a bad version of a grade B film noir: lots of misused slang, slurred speech and vulgarity.

Guest, I 'd say that both German and Polish are equally difficult in somewhat different ways. German has article declensions along with the adjective endings, which Polish doesn't have (nor does Russian!), but Polish has a seemingly chaotic counting system, almost quixotic in its capriciousness after the number '5'. On the other hand, German counting is as boringly regular and predictable as English, yet the separable vs. inseparable verbal prefixes in German drive most foreign students of mine up a bloody wall!!

In the end, I'd say that it's tough to generalize about each language's respective difficulties. One thing's for sure, though; their respective beauty is undeniable.

Language / Learning Polish, good for beginners? [29]

Hi,

I used a book 'Wśród Polaków' (Wydawnictwo Fundacji Kośćióskiej - 1992) eons ago and found it incredibly helpful. My version had NO English and even the cassettes were all in Polish!

Not even sure if it's still in print, but it's worth a try googling.

Powodzenia,

Polonia / Ever been to Sweden? [185]

No, Dan.

I mean that precisely because Sweden has for centuries been such a homogeneous and closed society, it naturally respects long-established mores (seder) and sees most deviation therefrom as mildly threatening, that's all.

Don't be offended! After all, who loved the Swedes more, while criticizing them more savagely, than their greatest modern muse, Ingmar Bergman??