Study / Turkish guy to study at a university in Poland. Is that problem for Polish people? [139]


This "cliché" happens to be true :)


Well, then there would probably be no World War II, no concentration camps etc. and we would have a completely different reality, so I don't get your comparison.

Btw, as for "good Nazis" - if it wasn't for one good Nazi, my mum, me and my brother most probably wouldn't be even born.


With what?


The reality is that there are over 1 billion of Muslims in the world and anyone who thinks that all of these people have one goal in life (convert or kill all unbelievers) is an idiot. That's my personal, honest opinion.

Most people's goals in life is to have a job that will earn them a decent living, getting married, having a family, being happy. No matter whether they're Muslims, Catholics, Hindus or atheists. No matter whether they're Poles, Turks, Americans, Jews, etc. We're not talking here about fanatics but about normal, ordinary people.

Those are the facts of life.
People in given countries are born into their religions, culture, traditions just like I was born into Catholicism. Some people choose to turn away from their religion (just like I did at some point), some choose to stick with it (like I did eventually), some just go with the flow, some don't have much choice in their home country, some believe in God but don't agree with everything that their religion has to offer (like I do).

People are different, they are individuals and tarring them with the same brush is, according to me, a sign of stupidity/prejudice/ignorance. I can understand where this prejudice is coming from but an intelligent person is aware of his/her own prejudice/bias and at least is trying to think in a logical and objective way.

Now, I'm not blind or stupid - I know what's going on in the world and that Islam is in our times number 1 provider of terrorists on this planet and religious regimes.

But there was time when Christians were killing "heathens" too, persecuting people of different religions for centuries (Jews), treating women as second-category people, persecuting people who thought differently, scientists, etc.

Christians were wiping out whole continents, killing, raping and pillaging often with the name of God on their lips. Those Nazi soldiers who destroyed my country and killed 6 million of my compatriots were wearing the slogan "Gott mit uns" ("God with us") on their belt buckles and they were Christians.

So if you'd ask me whether someone's religion matters to me (or whether he or she is religious or not) I would answer - no. I don't care. Because it doesn't matter. What matters is whether he or she is a good person. This may sound like another cliché :) but this is the truth.

There are, of course, things that I don't like about Islam (there are also things that I don't like, although to a lesser degree, about Catholicism, Judaism and other religions). But I wouldn't treat someone badly, ban someone from coming to my country or make someone feel unwelcome based only on their religion without knowing their exact views, attitudes, character, personality, etc.

Btw, as for comparing Islam with Nazism, gregy741 - funnily, not long ago I had a discussion with a Polish agnostic about a Roman Emperor, Julian the Apostate (who was anti-Christian and wanted Rome to come back to its pagan beliefs), about Christianity and monotheistic religions. He claimed that if it wasn't for monotheistic religions the world would probably be a better place and he compared Christianity to Nazism, just like you did it with Islam (and, according to him, if it wasn't for Christianity, then there would be no Islam, so there you go - it's "our" fault anyway :)). And for some Jews, for example, the Christian cross induces similar feelings as the Nazi swastika does, apparently (centuries of persecution, remember). Poles had some clashes with "the peace-loving crusaders" too - the Teutonic Order who were simply called by Poles "Krzyżacy" (could be roughly translated as "the Cross people").

So are you sure you want to go down the road of such comparisons? Because it's a double-edged sword...


You know, I'm reading two blogs of Polish women married to Muslims - both are Egyptian men. One couple lives in Egypt, the husband is a religious Muslim just like the rest of his fairly traditional family. The "bastardization" of this Polish woman's Catholic faith to Islam looks as follows: they own a dog, they have a Christmas tree on every Christmas and she prepares Polish food on Christmas Eve, they will also have a baby when they have a bigger flat with more space, because that's what she decided and he drinks alcohol.

Another couple lives in Poland. What the Polish woman heard from her Egyptian man at the beginning was: "It's your country, you decide, baby". The "bastardization" of this Polish woman's culture (it doesn't seem to me that she's particularly religious) to Islam looks as follows: the Egyptian guy wants a dog, he started drinking alcohol - not vodka though, he apparently likes those flavoured beers with low % that in Poland usually women drink :) - he would buy such a beer for every match of the Polish team in Euro (right in the middle of Ramadan), he doesn't eat pork but he isn't fasting during Ramadan when he's in Poland.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, Johnny, but Muslims have been living in Poland for centuries.
Also, according to a report from 2009 there were 456,000 Muslims in Ukraine and somehow I've never heard of any "bastardization" or any other problems with the Muslim community over there.

Poland isn't any magnet for large "hordes" of migrants of any faith or no faith (well, maybe except for Ukrainians) and when you come here you usually have to adapt to some degree (a grater degree than in the West) in order to survive in this country. So I don't understand your histeria. Poland "somehow" survived with 3 millions of Jews many of whom didn't assimilate at all, Poles and their "Polishness" survived some rougher sh!t than most of the West will probably ever experience so I don't think you have to worry about us that much and tell other people on our behalf whether they're welcome in our country (not yours).


Yeah, either that or he's totally crazy lol


You're welcome :) I don't like when people generalise about and are prejudiced towards Poles, Catholics and Catholicism so I can relate and empathise pretty easily. Besides, I'm a Christian and empathy is an important part of my religion and I wish more people who are calling themsleves Christians on this forum would remember about this important fact...

The world seems to be a darker and more scary place with every year and that's why I think it's important for people like us to build bridges or at least try to think objectively and apply common sense and some empathy...


Sorry to hear that, DuRnaa...


I'm glad to hear that :)


Teşekkürler, that's very kind of you :)


Well, to be honest, I think that right now it's probably not the best time to be from a Muslim country or looking "Arab" in Poland. Although it would also probably depend what city you would choose to study in. If you're going to just study here then you're probably going to study in English so you'll be around other foreigners anyway. As for Poles, I guess it's like DuRnaa and istannbullu34 write - there are good and bad people here - if you're lucky you'll meet more good people than bad, if you're unlucky you may get verbal abuse or even end up being punched or beaten up.

So if you like an adventure and some adrenaline rush then come - if you don't - maybe choose a more predictable place.
I don't really know, there are Muslims visiting and living and working in Poland and they're still alive lol but I myself don't like the direction where my country is going so I don't know what to advise you...


I hope that your society has become more healthy and your country more normal since the times when Serbs were performing ethnic cleansing and raping women and girls during the Balkan wars. Otherwise, maybe we shouldn't be letting Serbian students into Poland, hmm?

Study / Any information about Kujawy and Pomorze University in Bydgoszcz [11]


Oh, that's great, so you can ask them about stuff. Don't they know anyone who's studying at the Kujawy and Pomorze University?


You're welcome :)


Not really, I just watched a few Turkish TV series on Polish TV (like "Muhteşem Yüzyıl" for example) and that got me interested in Turkey a bit :)


That's very nice of you :) but that's not necessary and I don't live in Bydgoszcz so you wouldn't be able to give it to me anyway.

But you could bring something typically Turkish to Poland for other students - I'm sure such gesture would break the first ice, etc. When I was on Taizé meeting in Germany, for example, an Italian girl brought some Italian cheese and offered it to me and other Polish girls which was nice :)

Btw, are there any typically Turkish foods, drinks, sweets, stuff like that?


Dude, I don't even smoke cigarettes lol

Love / Polish guy and courting? Confusion. [35]


Well, there you go... It's not rocket science, he's into you :)


You know, for shy people it may be easier to text sth rather than say it in person. Do you tell/write him things like "I really had a great time today/last night :-)", "Thank you for a wonderful evening :-*", etc? When you write sth like that use this opportunity to send him some "kisses" :)

Btw, Myself, I forgot to mention something. If you grew up in Italy you may be in for a culture shock as far as Polish guys' behaviour towards women is concerned just as I was when I was in Italy. Italian guys are far more straightforward. I was much younger when I visited Italy and I remember how surprised I was when two guys just came up out of nowhere to me and my female friend on Piazza San Marco in Venice and asked us out for a coffee lol We were like: "Is this normal? :O" ;D I was so suspicious of such behaviour that I even thought that they might be working with human traffickers in order to lure some naive tourists because there were so many stories of human trafficking of Polish women and girls in the West that I was really wary. I almost had to drag my friend away from them because she was willing to go with them, I hope she didn't hate me for that ;D

Or those packs of young men/boys yelling after us - for me it was pretty intimidating and the further you went away the louder (and more angry?) they were - I wasn't sure whether they were hitting on us or whether they wanted to kill us ;D o_O

So, since he's not Italian, I'm afraid you'll have to embolden him a bit :)
Maybe when you two meet after the holiday greet him with "Hi, I missed you!" and give him a quick kiss on the cheek and a big smile :) And, as I said, cut the physical distance between you two, when you're walking, walk near him, take his arm, use some opportunities to touch his arm, back... Like when you're going to prepare a meal together, for example, tell him to chop the veggies or whatever and check at some point how he's doing, ask him in a joking way if he's managing and at the same time touch his back or lean on his shoulder - sth like this:



When you're going to watch a film sit close to him and not 5 meters away :). When you're going to comment on some scene in a film lean a bit closer towards him than you normally would, maybe gently touch his arm...

You know, that's basic stuff so I think he should be able to notice all those gestures and interpret them in the right way...

And if he kisses you again, return the kiss - so he wouldn't have any more doubts about whether you liked/wanted it or not :)

Love / Polish guy and courting? Confusion. [35]

The fact that he is "very sensitive" and he had "his troubles too in the past" probably explains a lot.


Don't worry about it, that's understandable.


Then believe it ;) And, btw, maybe try to show him some appreciation too, pay him some compliments, tell him at some point how good you feel in his company and that it feels like you've known him for a long time, etc. Maybe he also got "burned" in the past and can't believe that such a "superstrong and cool and independent woman" would be interested in him. Or maybe he doesn't have much experience with women and in such case he could use some reassurance too.


In case he is not what? Interested in you romantically?
Myself, you wrote that he kissed you. Did he kiss you on the lips or on the cheek?


Well, you're "dating" just over a month (and you're not even sure whether it's dating, maybe he isn't sure what's the situation either) so I wouldn't expect everyday outbursts of emotions, etc. Especially if he is, as you wrote, an introvert.

Btw, one thing you should also remember about, I guess, is that Poles aren't very open people. We need time to open up, to warm up to people, to trust them, etc.


You're welcome :)


If he kissed you on the lips then he probably "can see his unborn children in your eyes" ;D Just kidding, but, seriously... What more do you want, woman... lol If he's such a sensitive introvert he probably had to pluck up a lot of courage to give you even that super-shy kiss.

Next time you meet kiss him on the cheek at least :)
And on the days when he's not texting you maybe you text him first and simply ask how he is, how his day was, etc. You know, to show him that you want to be in touch and that you care so it wouldn't be always only his initiative (if it is).

Love / Polish guy and courting? Confusion. [35]

Yes, mafketis, I also think that he's straight and he's simply shy. If he kissed her on the lips then it's a clear sign for me that he wants their relations to be of romantic nature.

And as you wrote here:


That's probably the case and hence my instructions for Myself ;)


Really? From my observation the gay boys at my highschool were often spending time with girls... One even shared a flat with my female classmate.

Love / Polish guy and courting? Confusion. [35]

I don't know if Myself is genuine or a troll, but let's assume that she is genuine...



That's kind of my observation too, I guess...

Myself, if he asked you out (only you and him) on several occasions, pays for you (friends pay for themselves, split expenses during meet-ups or one time one person pays and another time another person pays), you were holding hands and he kissed you... If he kissed you on the lips and not on the cheek then I don't understand what's so cryptic about his behaviour. He's clearly interested in you romantically. But he's probably shy and I'm guessing a sweet guy too. He won't drag you to bed on a first or "even" a third date lol That's nothing unusual in Poland in my opinion.


That's probably often not the case with Polish people (not only men, but women also). They may be more likely to give you indirect signs that they like you rather then go like: "OMG, I like you so much, let's date!" ;)

Yes, Polish men can be confusing, for Polish women also, trust me... :)

Since you both are shy you may be going in circles like that forever or until he decides that you're not interested and you prefer to be friends with him or sth.

If you don't have the courage to tell him that you like him and that you're interested in him romantically then my advice would be to do it "the Polish way" and give him some less direct signs:

If he's always taking you somewhere then take the initiative and ask him out yourself, like to the cinema for a film or to the theater or wherever you guys like going. Or where he likes going. If you don't know where he likes going or what he likes to do in his spare time then ask him.

Use some body language - find some opportunities to touch him, like holding hands or... um... I don't know the name for this gesture in English but I have also this in mind:



Take his arm like this when you're walking. If you're too shy for this and it would be too akward for you to do it "just like that" then think of some kind of excuse, like, for example, that you're cold and it's warmer next to him or whatever ;)

Btw, a grown man and a grown woman holding hands is a couples' thing in Poland usually (unless the male friend is gay, I guess).

Touch his arm when you're laughing/joking around, take some invisible speck of dirt from his coat/shirt, etc. - you know the drill ;)

Since he was on a family wedding not long ago you can ask him about it and about his family and generally simply show interest in him.

Later on you can invite him to your place (if you haven't yet) to watch a film on DVD or for a dinner after work. If he cooks you could cook some meal together - it can be fun and a nice bonding experience. You can say, for example, that you'd like to show him how some dish from your home country is made or sth of this kind.

At some point ask him what he likes in women to give him a clue :) and maybe that could lead to a conversation about a realtionship...

In other words, gradually give him more and more clues that you're interested romantically and he'll become more sure of himself and will stop fearing rejection.

How old are you guys? And where are you from (from which country), Myself? If the culture of your country is a lot different than Polish then he may also not be entirely sure how to approach you.

Life / Can a secular muslim live in Poland? [24]


Why would she wear it at home?

I've exchanged some e-mail messages with a young Muslim woman from Indonesia (a religious one - once when we were chatting she had to take a pause for her prayer) and it was a very nice experience. We talked about our countries, a bit about history, food, she sent me some recipes on how to use batatas because I bought some at the supermarket and didn't know what to do with them lol

She was very nice and friendly and it felt not much different than talking to a religious Catholic girl from Poland, tbh.

Considering your girlfriend doesn't even wear a hijab I don't see a problem, as far as her looks - she will have no more problems then, let's say, the Vietnamese would (if they have any), I suppose (?).

In which city in Poland would you like to live?

Study / Any information about Kujawy and Pomorze University in Bydgoszcz [11]

Hi Hazal,

I doubt you'll get any answers here, students usually don't write on this forum (unless to ask questions like yours), as far as I've noticed.

Maybe try to ask on this forum:

erasmusu.com/en/erasmus-bydgoszcz/erasmus-forum

There's some info about this school in Polish on Wikipedia:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kujawsko-Pomorska_Szko%C5%82a_Wy%C5%BCsza_w_Bydgoszczy

In the section "Achievements" it says it got some medals and commendations, "The Trustworthy School" certificate, among others. In 2005 and 2006 it was in the first place in "Perspektywy" (a magazine about studies in Poland, during my highschool days people would check the ratings of univeristies and colleges there) and "Rzeczpospolita" (a serious Polish daily newspaper) in rankings of non-public schools in Bydgoszcz that provide vocational and licentiate studies. It was 10 years ago, however, and Bydgoszcz isn't a terribly big city but it means the school has been around for some time and it isn't some kind of scam and probably not complete crap, I guess ;) It is also mentioned that in 2011 as the only school in Poland it was chosen as a partner for pope's Benedict XVI The Ratzinger Foundation, but I don't know how relevant this is.

I've found some opinions in Polish by Polish students about this school (bear in mind that the level of studies can be different for foreign students though - could be worse).

Opinions vary.
Here, for example, some students complain about the lack of organisation (comments from 2013) and the level of education (and some others disagree, say it's not bad and that they're satisfied, some say it's a school as other schools - if you want to learn something, you will):

forum.pomorska.pl/kujawsko-pomorska-szkola-wyzsza-w-bydgoszczy-opinie-t131784

I've translated some comments:

Marcin
posted on the 2nd of October 2013
This school is another shop with diplomas, majority of serious employers don't respect diplomas from those pseudo-schools of higher education in which you pass because you pay and your level of knowledge and skills equals zero.

Janek
posted on the 6th of October 2013
Pretty good school or at least the best among the private ones in Bydgoszcz. I've studied for my master's degree in economy there. Then he complains about Wyższa Szkoła Bankowa in Bydgoszcz where he got his licentiate and states that Kujawy and Pomorze University compares favoubarly: Lecturers are open and it turns out they're indeed specialists with many years of practice in the profession who go to Brussels and who make use of their knowledge in practice and not only during lectures.

guest
posted on the 31st of August 2013
Unfortunately I've heard the school can't boast about the best of levels. I know a few people who graduated from there and they themselves confirm that the rule over there is: you pay so you pass... and in my opinion they indeed aren't exactly the best students and yet they have their master's degree. I think that it is better to pick places that don't have "szkoła" or "uczelnia" in their names. Why don't you try a university?

There are quite a few opinions here too:

opinieouczelniach.pl/opinie/kujawsko-pomorska-szkola-wyzsza-w-bydgoszczy

But those opinions are in Polish. I'm sorry, but I don't have more time for translating. Maybe someone else will translate some comments (or try Google Translate).

I think the best option for you, though, would be to contact other Erasmus students who study/studied there.
Here you have a thread about this school in Turkish:

erasmusum.com/showthread.php?tid=5378

And here:
erasmusum.com/showthread.php?tid=5960

Here's a video of a Turkish guy who I guess is/was an Erasmus student in Poland and is visiting a zoo in Bydgoszcz which could mean that he is/was studying in this city so maybe try to contact him:



Good luck! :)

Btw, you have a pretty name ^__^

History / Poland in WWI [38]


Well, I'll try to check whether there's some info about it in that article when I have time then, but for now - Euro 2016 is calling with France vs Germany match (that's going to be some carnage probably lol) so history will have to wait :)

Study / Turkish guy to study at a university in Poland. Is that problem for Polish people? [139]


You're prejudiced, johnny.


That's Islamic State for you, not Turkey.
In Victorian era or maybe even later (I don't remember exactly) in Britain wife beating was allowed too, btw, but with a stick no thicker than a thumb, as far as I remember. How merciful, wasn't it :D

Study / Turkish guy to study at a university in Poland. Is that problem for Polish people? [139]

I wouldn't be surprised if lixt1 was a troll but lets assume that he isn't... Give the guy a break. There are good people and bad people among Muslims, just like there are good and bad people among other religions.

Why are you jumping on him like that? He's from Turkey and not from some kind of Islamic State, ffs.
There are religious nutcases that hate other religions and want to impose stuff on others in all kinds of religions. It doesn't look like lixt1 is one of them and he isn't responsible for every bad thing that some other Muslim does in the world so if he respects Poland's laws etc. I see no reason for him not to come to my country.

History / Poland in WWI [38]

Yes, TheOther, I've also skimmed through the article and that's how I've understood it too. But it doesn't make sense to me.

I've found only one example of a delibarate destruction of a Great War monument at Tannenberg but... it was dynamited by the Soviets in 1945. Is there more? I don't have the time to read all of this right now and the author seems to write mainly how "striking" it is that there are no monuments and that poor tourists have problems with finding stuff - I don't have the time and patience to go trough all of this right now. Is there any evidence of the Polish communist authorities deliberately destroying WWI monuments and cemeteries? Were there any orders from Polish communist authorities to censor the fact that Poles fought in partitioning armies (I've never heard of any such thing).

It looks to me like the author is making a lot of guesswork.

And the author wrote here:


Jon357 wrote about it and I wrote about it too.

But the author of the article is wrong here:


lol
What "unwelcome recollection" and what "internal conflict"? lol The guy is clearly clueless of what is taught at history classes in Poland. It sucked that Poles were forced to fight each other, obviously, but that was the reality of that time and somehow I don't see Poles having problems with acknowledging it.


"potentially" lol
Not only "potentially" but of course they were fighting fellow Poles! lol


Now this is just ridiculous :D The author clearly has no understanding of the fact that Poles had and still have no warm feelings for the Russian Empire, to put it mildly.

This is interesting, however:

"Furthermore, two of the three belligerents which fought on Polish soil during the Great War showed little interest in commemoration once the conflict ended. Indeed World War I was largely repudiated by postwar Russian and Austrian societies as an imperialist war foisted upon them by the upper classes. Such a wide scale rejection never occurred in the Western democracies like France and England. Thus one finds museums featuring aspects of World War I in France, Belgium, England, Slovenia, and Italy but not in Poland."

Is this true - about Russia's and Austria's attitude towards commemoration of WWI or is it author's overinterpretation and guesswork again?

History / Poland in WWI [38]

OK, TheOther, I'll be more specific then - I don't see what Polish soldiers fighting in the armies of the three partitioning powers, their graves and the memory of those soldiers have to do with de-Germanization. Poles didn't fight only in the Prussian army.

History / Poland in WWI [38]


Indeed.


Jesus... Now you're being a nasty demagogue. Of course everyone matters, but any sane person understands that losses of such magnitude as Polish losses during World War II are likely to eclipse everything that came before it in the society's consciousness.


No, you weren't. That's the problem and hence my reaction. You figured it all out for yourself even before making this thread as evidenced by your later comments following your "questions".

And, as often it is in your case, the answer that was born in your chauvinist, prejudiced head was: Poles are bad, baaad, horrible people and that's it folks :)))

Now maybe you will tell me again: noooo, I was just asking a question because I was "curious" and stuff and I wanted to know, to "learn"...

And I will say: "Really?"
Then why when jon357 explained it to you, you just went on with your prejudiced rant?
Examples:

"the coldheartedindifference of the Polish authorities and indeed of the Polish nation to the dead of a massive conflict that claimed so many lives"

"I don't mean to sound horrible *(but you knew that you were and you just kept going :))*, really I don't, but it's as if Poland likes to perpetuate and promote the image of Poland as the victim of WWII and tries to diminish its involvement in WWI because it doesn't sit very comfortably with that image. "

"fighting to all intents and purposes on the wrong side with the Hun, the First World War is conveniently forgotten"

"The tragedy of Poles who were forced to kill each other should certainly be treated with some regret and respect for those dead." *(Like we have no regret and respect for them?)*

So, the only explanation for you is that Poles must be coldhearted, indifferent, it's because we like to perpetuate and promote the image of Poland as the victim of WWII and we diminish "involvement" in WWI because it doesn't sit very comfortably with that image.

Well, Atch, your theory and attitude shows how prejudiced, ignorant, arrogant and Western-centered you are.


I am a friendly and open minded person as I've proven many times on this forum (you yourself called me "a lovely girl"), but I don't see a reason to be friendly with prejudiced, two-faced people.


One of the reasons why I write such long posts on this forum (I don't write comments that are THAT long in other places on the internet) is to explain things to you people about Poland and Poles. But sometimes even my patience is all but spent. And believe me, considereing your prejudice and chauvinism (your "Irish brilliance" that Ziemowit ridicules) I am being courteous towards you. A Russian in the same situation would mercilessly ridicule you and eat you raw :) Maybe except for a few liberals, but they are saints and I truly admire them lol


I don't understand what's "odd" about it. The memory of WWII is not only more painful but also more recent, fresh. There are still people alive who lived through the WWII. I was waiting for a visit at the doctor and some very elderly man with manners of a pre-war gentleman and still a very handsome face with beautiful blue eyes sat next to me and told me about his life, that he was a pilot and a prisoner of a concentration camp in Northern Nazi Germany and then he was in a secret service prison in communist Poland and when he was released his weight was something over 40 kilos.

WWI is history in comparisement.
Just like Polish uprisings, for example. I've seen once some sort of monument indicating a mass grave of Polish insurgents from the January Uprising somewhere deep in the woods at Karczówka mountain - I wouldn't even know about it if I didn't wander there in the search of forest flowers and I probaly wouldn't be able to find it again. It was in a bad shape, obviously, and it made me sad that noone will lit a candle for people who fought for our independence so I just put flowers that I picked in the forest under the modest monument and prayed a little.

As for Red Army monuments - they are all over the place because Poland was a communist country and a Soviet Union's puppet. Does such obvious fact really has to be explained? Atch, how long have you been living in Poland?


No, I don't. But I do find your self-righteous, judgmental, arrogant, insolent, ignorant and prejudiced attitude amusing, yes :) Hence my "lol".


That's sad, Atch, but that's what wars are like. I don't know what were my family's experiences in WWI, I only know some of my family's experiences during WWII, like my grandfather and his family almost starving to death, his sister dying (his other sister told me once while standing over her grave with her eyes bulging and staring at me that I look like her... That was creepy...), my other grandfather fought in the underground against the Nazis, one of my relatives survived Auschwitz... Most of Polish families were affected to a lesser or a greater degree by the WWII. The "family memory" of WWI is non-existent in comparison.

Maybe here lies the reason... British families weren't affected to such an extent by the WWII as Polish families were... Let alone Irish families...

Atch, aren't you by any chance feeling some kind of discomfort because of the behaviour of Ireland during World War II and that's why you're "mirroring" it on Poland and taking it out on Poles in this thread?


Most countries in Europe have a thousand years of war and bloodshed but I don't think there's anything in the recent history of Ireland that would be comparable to Nazi and Soviet occupation of Poland and the general horror of WWII in this region of Europe, tbh.

And anyway, I don't lecture you on what kind of attitude you should have towards your dead and their graves, especially considering that I'm no expert on the history of your country and the sentiments your nation may or may not have.

The insolence of some Western people is sometimes really astounding.


That's your problem and your shame so don't "mirror" it on us. Those Poles who fought during WWI were never dishonoured the way those Irish who fought against the Nazis were in Ireland. We are well aware of the tragic situation of the Polish soldiers during WWI - I was taught about it during history classes at school. Just like about Ireland's neutrality during WWII, btw.


Yes, Ireland is mature since 2012 - it took you long time, didn't it lol
But you see - Poland never had anything against Poles who died fighting during WWI. Actually, anyone who attended history classes in Polish school knows that those Poles who survived WWI used their war experience and military training in the Prussian army, for example, to fight for independence later on against those same Germans that were their "brothers in arms" during WWI. Ironic, isn't it?

Now, Atch, if you don't like the tone of my comments - pity, but I don't like your tone either. I don't like your prejudice, arrogance, your closed mind, your chauvinism and your two-faced attitude. You don't have any inhibitions when talking about Poles and Poland so why would I have any when talking about you, right?

So I guess we're even.


I don't see what WWI has to do with de-Germanization. It doesn't make sense to me, tbh.

As I was saying earlier, there are many cemeteries in Poland, all kinds of cemeteries from all kinds of wars, uprisings, mass executions, etc.
Some are better kept, some are neglected. There are Soviet cemeteries that are well kept and there are Soviet cemeteries that are neglected. There are WWI cemeteries that are well kept and there are those which are neglected.There are WWII cemeteries that are well kept and there are those which are neglected. There are Jewish cemeteries that are well kept and there are those which are neglected. There are uprisings cemeteries/monuments that are well kept and there are those which are neglected.

The general rule is that the older the war and the graves are the less likely they are to be well kept or remembered. I don't see any ill intent in this or sth done on purpose or out of some kind of selective "coldhearted indifference" lol Poland isn't as rich as Western countries are though and so we have to prioritise somewhat, I imagine, which cemeteries to care for. Even at Powązki Cemetery in Warsaw which is a historic cemetery, the most famous cemetery in the city and one of the oldest, famous people, actors and such, are collecting money every year during All Saints Day for renovation of the more important graves - and even those have to be prioritised/selected because there's simply not enough money to renovate all of them.

And, as I wrote earlier - WWI means sth different to Poles and sth different to the West. When will you learn that there's a whole world outside the West and that not everyone has the same viewpoint on everything?

There were many wars in Poland, there were many Poles killed in all kinds of conflicts and massacres, there was an enforced communist "amnesia" and censorship on all kinds of things that we're still coming to terms with, like, for example - the Katyń massacre - after some time after the collapse of communism there were still people who thought it was done by Germans, did you know?

And you're complaining about graves of people who died a century ago? Why not two centuries ago, or 3 or 4 or 5, or 1000 years ago for that matter? They "mattered" too and they had "parents, siblings, a wife, children" too.

Your family and your country was probably more affected by WWI than by WWII. Fine, that's your history.
Our is different. Deal with it. Accept it that we're different, we have different history and maybe different sensibilities. Not everything has to be like in the West. And maybe not everything can be (at least not yet).

And next time, if you don't want me to be "unfriendly" with you, stop at asking a question and wait (patience) for an answer if you actually want to learn (humility) something instead of inventing prejudiced theories (friendliness).

Now, Atch, be good and sin no more :P

(And look at the length of my post - that IS patience on my behalf, trust me lol)

History / Poland in WWI [38]


I was wondering about that too... Atch makes it look like there were "good guys" and "bad guys" in WWI...
As far as I remember, I was taught at school that WWI resulted from the rise of nationalisms across Europe... I don't recall there being any clear cut division into "bad side" and "good side" like there was during WWII. Of course Poles didn't sympathize with the partition powers, obviously, but besides that... *shrugs*

History / Poland in WWI [38]


LOL
Sweet Jesus, have mercy...

OK, first things first...

As you wrote, around 400 000 Poles died fighting each other in different armies. Another 100 000 died defending the borders and independence. 300 000 - 400 000 civilians died due to poor living conditions and diseases.

Now compare it to around 6 million Poles that perished during WW II (Polish Jews included), a leveled capital of the country, death camps, Nazi and Soviet occupation...

The Second World War in Poland was such a hecatomb that it completely overshadowed pretty much everything that happened before that, WWI included, sorry.

Another thing... Atch, this country is full of cemeteries. They are f*cking EVERYWHERE, OK?

Look at the list of the cemeteries from WWI: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Cmentarze_z_I_wojny_%C5%9Bwiatowej_w_Polsce

There are 321 in the Lesser Poland region alone:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Cmentarze_z_I_wojny_%C5%9Bwiatowej_w_wojew%C3%B3dztwie_ma%C5%82opolskim

Who's going to pay for renovating and keeping all of this?
Poland has problems with paying for hospitals and you think people will be eager to pay for... graves?

You think those are the only neglected cemeteries in Poland? lol I've seen at my city's cemetery graves of Polish victims of the Nazi occupation with a meter long grass growing on them. The cemetery of Soviet soldiers doesn't look stellar either, to put it midly, I even took pictures.

There's also a cemetry at Bukówka in my city with mass graves of Soviet soldiers that were held by the Nazis in a camp and they were dying of starvation and diseases, there are apparently marks clawed by starving men on the walls...

This is the cemetery:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cmentarz_je%C5%84c%C3%B3w_radzieckich_w_Kielcach

Oh, yeah, and let us not forget about Jewish cemeteries too, since there are no Jewish families to take care of them either...

And you're complaining about "coldhearted indifference" of Poles towards graves of people that died almost a century ago... Wow... lol
Cry me a river... ffs...


Really? But you kind of do sound... prejudiced.


What involvement? o_O There was no Poland at that time, ffs.


What on Earth are you talking about?


It isn't "conveniently" forgotten. WWI is simply something different, means sth different to Poles than to Westerners. To Poles WWI was somebody else's war thanks to which we got our independence back. So, in a way, for the Westerners it was a big tragedy but for Poles it meant the rebirth of Poland.


Wow... Damn... :D That's the first thing I hear of this... Discomfort? lol No at all. Why would Poles volunteer to the Allied forces?? Wasn't it enough that Poles were killing each other in three different armies already??


Atch, when your nation endures the same amount of tragedy, death, horror and destruction as my nation experienced then... maybe then... I will consider your right to lecture us on how to treat our dead.

UK, Ireland / Xenophobic Backlash Against Polish School in London [23]

I guess "F*ck you OMP" isn't really enough to say that it was anti-Polish, on the other hand it's the first attack on this Polish centre since sth like 50 or 60 years apparently.

Don't know how the British are taught to write "F" at school but I know for sure that this is not the way Polish people are taught to write the capital "i" (an info for all the internet amateur graphologists out there :)):

twitter.com/CLeddyOwen/status/747433931893579776?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Of course, in theory, a Polish person could learn to write it the British way, but what Pole would write sth like that on a war memorial?

Anyway, I don't think vandalism is the worse. I think what's worse is the things Polish people (and others) are experiencing now in their daily lives, so I think I'll have to agree with G (undercover) on this one:

nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/as-migrants-face-abuse-fear-that-brexit-has-given-license-to-xenophobia.html?_r=2

Others took to Twitter to convey their shock. Jamie Pohotsky, a screenwriter from Boston, wrote on Twitter: "Table next to me says to Polish waitress 'How come you're so cheerful? You're going home.' Him and the missus started laughing. Disgusting."

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/troubling-stories-everyone-should-read-8294187

"Liz Palmer
My friend had to intervene yesterday at gatwick airport when a british man said to a polish guy that he shouldn't still be here, that we had voted to be rid of people like him. How has this happened that people think it is acceptable to say things like this? petty racism becoming mainstream, a scary rise of nationalism that reminds me of what happened in the 1930's. scary times when this sort of viewpoint becomes so mainstream..."

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-26/racist-incidents-have-u-k-worried-what-referendum-has-wrought

"Britons have taken to Facebook and Twitter to report other racist incidents. One user, Fiona Anderson, described "an older woman on the 134 bus gleefully telling a young Polish woman and her baby to get off and get packing." A professor at Coventry University, Heaven Crawley, said on Twitter on Friday that "This evening my daughter left work in Birmingham and saw group of lads corner a Muslim girl shouting 'Get out, we voted leave'.""

independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html

"A few hours after the announcement of the referendum, she says she was approached by a woman who asked her if she was Polish. When she said she was, she said the woman told her to be "scared" and that she must get a visa if she wanted to stay in "her" country.

"The vicious smile and the way she looked at me brought me to tears," said Ms Brzezniak."

UK, Ireland / Why are Poles in the UK complaining of racism when you are racist? [73]


Yes, Doug, it does seem that you like to repeat this but does this justify anti-Polish abuse directed at some random Poles?
I remember that you wrote on PF at some point during the refugee crisis that your Polish family is being ostracised for being Polish because of Polish government's stance on refugee quotas. Did you mean that they were being ostracised in the UK?


Not very funny considering the circumstances...


Oh, but they are. They seem to be very sincere now... It looks like you don't know what's going on in the UK after Brexit... Apparently it's as if someone opened Pandora's box.

I've watched CNN yesterday evening and Hala Gorani interviewed a very upset Alastair Campbell telling about people telling him all the time about the abuse directed at them after the Brexit vote, taxi drivers told to get out of the UK because they're not British (only because they're not white), despite the fact they're born British, etc.

Here's more:

independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html

Kirsty Allan
Italian person I was w/ last night was assaulted for asking how someone voted. Knocked out w/ a bottle, lost a tooth, stitches. I'm scared.

nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/as-migrants-face-abuse-fear-that-brexit-has-given-license-to-xenophobia.html?_r=0

"The normally primordial murmur from the racist swamp has now being released, and people feel empowered to say things they wouldn't have said before last week," he said. "I have never heard so many people tell me to go back to Africa as I have heard in the past few days."

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-26/racist-incidents-have-u-k-worried-what-referendum-has-wrought

"Sebastien, a 26-year-old Frenchman, was walking in the Kensington district on Friday with a friend and her mother, who was visiting from Paris. Hearing them speaking French, a man walking his dog began shouting at them to "Leave, Leave!," said Sebastien, who declined to provide his surname for fear of retaliation."

"Schoolchildren were racially abused in a west London district this week, Seema Malhotra, one of Labour's team of Treasury spokespeople, said on Saturday. "Someone shouted: 'Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why aren't we educating the English?'" she said, citing a letter from a teacher in her constituency about an incident on Wednesday. "Another went close up to the children and said: 'You lot are taking all our jobs. You're the problem."'

"A professor at Coventry University, Heaven Crawley, said on Twitter on Friday that "This evening my daughter left work in Birmingham and saw group of lads corner a Muslim girl shouting 'Get out, we voted leave'.""

A lot of examples here:

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/troubling-stories-everyone-should-read-8294187

I must say I didn't expect this... The British people on this forum led me to believe that the UK is some kind of super tolerant country. How much of this tolerance was just superficial, I'm wondering now?

Although I must admit that what surprised and shocked me the most was not the anti-Polish hate, not even the racism and Islamophobia but... the "ordinary" xenophobia o_O

German mothers considering it "too risky" to speak with their children in German in the streets now or that Nazi-like British woman telling a French woman living in the UK for 10 years: "I should be served first as I'm British, go home" O_O That's just bewildering...

Other articles:
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/brexit-racism-eu-referendum-racist-incidents-politicians-media

"UN urges UK to end xenophobic attacks after Brexit vote":
aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/uk-xenophobic-attacks-brexit-vote-160628171147062.html

"Violence, intimidation and calls of "Go home" directed at minorities - from Europeans in England to non-white Britons - have surged since the referendum last Friday."

UK, Ireland / Why are Poles in the UK complaining of racism when you are racist? [73]


From my experience majority of Poles in Poland aren't racist so I suspect it's similar in the UK.
So I'm not sure what you're asking about... Do you mean that some normal non-racist Polish family living in the UK, for example, should suffer some kind of anti-Polish abuse in silence because there are some racist Poles who abuse others? What kind of logic is that?


And you think Poles aren't abused by the English? They are. So maybe that's your "Karma", yes? :)


Whose Karma? Of Poles in general? Are serious? You know, the Nazis had all kinds of "justifications" and "explanations" for the discrimination and persecution of Jews, Slavs and others, so I'd advise you to be careful with such attitude - there still probably are people who believe that what happened to Jews was "Karma" for "killing Jesus" or sth of this sort.


According to BBC in 2015 alone there were about 1,000 attacks on refugee shelters in Germany and in the UK Islamophobic crimes have also increased. I've seen a documentary on BBC about attacks on Muslim women in the UK, even girls are abused at school (one was called "a Taliban child", for example).

bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-34140219

Some fragments from the article:

"The incident took place in a shopping centre in Bristol but no-one helped and it was only after Ms Khan made a public appeal in the media for help to track down the perpetrator that witnesses came forward."

"Ms Begum remembers several people witnessed the incident but, rather than help, some laughed while others turned their backs."

So what now, am I supposed to say that because of all of that and because of what my female Polish friends and acquaintances experienced in the UK - if some British or German will face some kind of xenophobic abuse it's their "Karma"?

And it's those Muslim women's "Karma" to be attacked both verbally and physically, spat at, be thrown things at them and have their veils torn off because other Muslims are killing people of other faiths and world views and abusing and raping women and girls?

Muslims and Indians and Africans also can have pretty dreadful attitude towards women, other castes, different religions so maybe I, as a woman and a Christian, should say that whatever happens to Muslims or Indians or Africans in Poland or in Europe or in the US or wherever is their "Karma"?

You see where it can lead to?

Of course, those Poles who are racists and complain about racism are hypocrites, that's plain and simple and believe me, I really detest hypocrisy. But Poles aren't the only nation on this planet who have hypocrites among them, trust me :)


So let's all of us treat all immigrants with respect, shall we :)

Feedback / Stupid limitation on the quotation length [20]

You know, this quoting limit is one thing (it is small, that's true), but interfering with what is actually being quoted inside the allowed quoting limit is a step too far for me...

An example: polishforums.com/life/poland-one-year-living-78297/3/#msg1556006

I quoted "The husband took my hand and kissed it and then burst into tears! I ended up hugging him even though I don't know them very well and it was quite a breach of Polish formalities" because for me the whole event was sweet, both the Polish man's reaction and that of Atch. And I had to cut it down to the quote limit anyway because it was a few words too long lol

But mod cut it down even more just to "I ended up hugging him even though I don't know them very well and it was quite a breach of Polish formalities".

Is this control-freakish Nazi-style modding really necessary?
How far will this get?
Maybe mods will start to dictate to us what we're supposed to write in our comments? ;/
I usually try to shut up about some "improvements" being made on this forum but this is a bit too crazy for me, tbh... I've never seen anything like this on any forum. All those "technical" rules and limitations are starting to be irritating and make posting here feel like walking on a minefield. It's a bit suffocating. Not to mention that it's a lot of additional unnecessary work for the mods.

Just saying...

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


To be honest, I was thinking the same... Luke, at some point you will have to take some action or nothing will change for the better...

But it looks like this forum is helping already :)

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


That's true xD


Awww, that's sweet, Atch... :)))

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


Sorry about that ;D


I know, but he mentioned him together with Tony Bennett, so I got confused :P


It was just a thought - sth like taking photos of nature could make him go out of the house, contact with nature is good for the psyche, you know - fresh air, sun, Vitamin D and such ;) At least he wouldn't sit inside the four walls.

I don't know him, I don't know Chrzanów, not sure what one can do there, so I don't really know what else to propose...

If he's not into teaching then how about going to the gym or some kind of classes? Something where you could meet other people...


Oh, I didn't know about that :)


I know, his "The Alchemist" was quite popular during my highschool days and I've read it too :)


Maybe that's a good idea. You could ask the local priest (or your wife or your mother-in-law could do that for you) if there's any voluntary work to do in the city. You could even tell him about your problem - that you need to socialize, priests are usually accustomed to listening to people's woes so if he's not a jerk he may help you out :)


There are some chatty people in Poland too, some time ago I went to the hairdresser, a middle-aged lady, I've seen her for the first time in my life and she told me the story of her life, where her kids work (UK, Netherlands), I also got to know her views on some issues, plus about a son of her friends or sth who killed himself :/ - all in one visit lol The problem was that she was asking me about personal stuff too in front of other clients and I had no other choice but to share it in order not to be rude - and... I... just... wanted her... to... cut... my hair... arggghhh! xD You would probably love her but I know I probably won't go there anymore, the visit would be probably quite shorter if it wasn't for all this personal talk... I don't go to the hairdresser to talk about my life, people have family and friends for that... ;P

My dentist is also chatty, but fortunately not so nosy ;)
So, yeah, I actually like the fact that people in Poland just do their jobs and aren't bothering me :P ;)
Well, maybe except for taxi drivers - they usually want to chat because they're bored to death after sitting and waiting for clients, I guess :) So, again, I get to know about their kids, that a wife had cancer and when he's having a back surgery... Are you sure you want Poles to chat with you? ;D Be careful what you wish for xD

Btw, maybe Poles, as a nation, are generally introverts? lol :)))
In case they are, here you have a funny guide on how to deal with them ;):

romanjones.deviantart.com/art/How-to-Live-with-Introverts-PDF-available-291305760

I like the "HISSS" part especially ;D


Could be, people in smaller cities and towns may be more shy with foreigners especially.
But, as you see, other people made friends even in not very big cities so hopefully you'll be able to do that too eventually thanks to the advice people are giving you here :)


No, it's not schools' fault or anyone's else's really... lol That's history, Luke, that's a natural process and it's slow, sorry ;) You can't take 50 years of communism out of 38 mln nation after 25 years of democracy and capitalism. Poles won't probably change a lot during your stay in Poland so I'm afraid you will have to adapt a little (if you decide to stay, that is). And maybe try to be less judgy, people may be able to sense your negative attitude just like I'm starting to feel it and they may keep their distance then. Just saying. I know that you may feel frustrated but I'm trying to help you out :)


Not only history, watching Polish TV, films, maybe reading some books could give him something to talk about with other Poles, I guess...


Yes, it looks like that's the case.


Then maybe sign up for a gym or take up swimming at a local pool? Is there such stuff in Chrzanów? Maybe you would meet someone there...

Work / A PhD Moving to Kraków, Poland! Salary, housing, spendings, nightlife, English knowledge. [14]


Thanks, Atch :)


Well then, when I'm in my 50's I'll go to Ireland to feel young again ;D


You're welcome, but remember that I don't live in Kraków, so I'm not sure how helpful what I wrote actually is :)


Thanks, I'll try to remember about that if I ever visit Kraków again :))


Yes, I was thinking the same.


I was thinking the same to be honest, it's better to be careful.


Yes, that looks like a good attitude :)

Btw, Einsiedler, in Poland there's a stereotype probably going back as far as to the partitions of Poland that people in Kraków are stingy so maybe they'll teach you their thrifty ways ;D

Here's an article titled "How much does a life of a student cost? How to survive for 1200 PLN a month?" ;):
dziennikzachodni.pl/artykul/1025633,ile-kosztuje-zycie-studenta-jak-przezyc-za-1200-zl-miesiecznie,id,t.html

Here you have a Polish student asking about the cost of life in Kraków (comments from 2013, I think):
wiadomosci.onet.pl/tablica/ile-kosztuje-studenckie-zycie-w-krakowie,1617,942365,118189384,watek.html

I'll translate one answer for you:

lola:the rest, meaning food, entertainment, clothes - it depends on the quantity but you got to have the minimum of 500 PLN for this :)

Students, if they don't cook themselves or bring food from family home, they often eat in cheap diners called "bar mleczny" where they serve ordinary Polish "home-like meals" for very low prices.

Here you have another article with general info for different cities including Kraków - "What's the cost of living for a student?":

bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Ile-kosztuje-utrzymanie-studenta-2034004.html

For a male student (living in dormitory):



For a female student (renting a studio with a friend and eating more healthy food than the male counterpart lol):



"Suma" is the sum of all the expences - the cost of living - in Kraków it's 858, 50 PLN for a male student living in a dormitory and 1 412 PLN for a female student renting a studio with a friend. The article is from 2009 so it may be more expensive nowadays.

Kraków is apparently one of the more expensive cities in Poland.

A video about preffered districts for expats in Kraków (I haven't watched it but maybe there's something useful there):

youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_772223&feature=iv&src_vid=0VcvGyBKghE&v=vFcA74O6Xd4

Btw, if you find some flat offer that will interest you in particular I could translate it for you (or maybe someone else will if I'm not available).

And, finally, here's a link to an expat community in Kraków, there are French expats among them so I imagine they can be a good source of information for you :):

internations.org/krakow-expats/french

Apparently they organize offline meetups in Kraków too :)

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


Ah, but you see, Poland isn't a Western country. It's a post-communist country. So, for you it's not like a different continent, it's more like a different planet :) Be grateful your wife isn't Russian, you'd probably wouldn't survive there... Russia was longer under communist rule (and it was harsher) than Poland so it's like every problem that you'd encounter in Poland is magnified there - Russians are viewed as even less smiley, more rude, colder, less empathic, bigger corruption, nepotism, more crazy drivers, etc. etc. But when I got to know Russians on the internet they turned out to be very friendly, warm, sentimental and curious people eager to find some connection with you. Also rather sensitive and easy to hurt. I even had one Russian nationalist with pretty objectionable views sending me a picture of a crocus getting through snow for my birthday and wishing me a happy birthday lol Of course, it also depends on your attitude too - Russophobes weren't treated very well by Russians, obviously lol

I imagine it's the same in real life - once you get to know some Russians and cease to be "a stranger" to them they will turn out to be warm, friendly people.

Poles are more or less like this too, so when you see a Pole - imagine a cactus lol It's tough and spikey on the outside but soft and mushy inside ;)

We gotta retain that tough outer shell in order to survive in hostile environment lol Just like cactus in the desert :) Life in Poland wasn't and still isn't easy and Poles are in result somewhat tough and rough, but that's more on the outside. Once you get to that soft inside you may get a friend for life, who knows :)


I doubt that, tbh, I get a new hobby every few years lol Once it was figure skating, then Japanese culture and anime, then astronomy and stargazing with a telescope, then Russia and Russian culture and I'm still interested to some extent in all of that. I have some core interests that don't change but as you can see getting a hobby later in life is possible.


You can always start something and check if it keeps you interested. Dougpol1 wrote that Chrzanów is "surrounded by natural beauty and national park" - maybe you could get interested in photography? Taking photos of nature around you could help you to explore and get to know the area. Or you could find someone who likes wild mushroom hunting in the forest, which is quite popular in Poland - it can be fun for the whole family. You could buy yourself a book about mushrooms with pictures and try and find and identify them in the forest. Sometimes you can find really weird, alien-like looking ones :D Unless you're not much of a nature-guy, of course.

mafketis:


I agree with mafketis, this could be a good idea. I would even go to different cities to meet with people I got to know on-line, my brother met his wife like this and now they're expecting a baby :)))


Isn't he a writer?


Hey, I know that roz and me are both awesome women but are we really that indistinguishable? ;D

Life / In Poland, are women and girls obligated to wear head scarves in church? [36]


But in Catholic churches?


Interesting, I didn't know that the tradition of wearing mantilla ever reached Poland.


Yes, some of them are quite pretty even :)


Well, you know, I think many women had at least one situation in their lives when they got scared and then the danger becomes more real and you start thinking how to prevent something bad from happening.

My own comment about the kilts reminded me of sth in this regard... ;P
Once when I was at highschool I was going back from my Listening Comprehension test for FCE, it was winter and I was wearing a long woolen skirt. It was already dark and cold and I wanted to get to the bus station as fast as possible so I decided to make a shortcut through some quite big desolate grassy area near a parking lot. There were no lights there and the ground turned out to be covered with ice but I was tired and just wanted to go back home already so I didn't turn away. When I was in the middle of that area I've noticed some man getting near in front of me. He looked like some homeless guy, a bum or someone of this sort, but in my experience so far they were harmless so I wasn't worried or anything. Probably that's why when he got near me and asked in a lewd, harsh voice destroyed by alcohol with some teeth missing in his wide grin: "What do you have under that skirt?" I freaked out so much that I slipped on the ice. Fortunately I managed to keep my balance and didn't fall but I got scared and I departed as fast as I could which wasn't easy because ice was everywhere and the skirt I was wearing was pretty narrow and I couldn't make bigger steps in it. I was moving with the grace of penguin Pik-Pok and the speed of a fly trying to get out of tar - I imagine it must've looked hilarious, but my heart was pounding :)

If it happened during daytime in a place full of people I most probably wouldn't freak out that much, but it did happen in such circumstances and for the first time in my life so when I got to the bus stop of course I started thinking how stupid I was to make that shortcut. And then my imagination started working and I thought that if that guy would want to rape me and I didn't manage to keep my balance and fell then that would be the end for me most probably. I've also realised that I wouldn't be able to run in that dress and that I would not only be able to run in trousers but also that it would be more difficult to take off jeans trousers then lift my skirt and take off or rip off my tights. So I guess it was that evening when it came to my mind that it's better to wear trousers in such situation. Also, I remember thinking that if I didn't wear a skirt maybe he wouldn't make that comment...

So my conclusions as a teenager from that evening were:
1. Never make shortcuts after dark through dark, desolate places.
2. You never know what to expect from a man so it's better to expect the worse just in case.
3. Skirts are "rape-friendly".
4. Skirts draw unwanted attention.

I never wore that skirt again lol

Pretty sure the OP was asking about head covering in church. Please get back to the topic

Life / In Poland, are women and girls obligated to wear head scarves in church? [36]


I think that in the past when dresses were long and fairly wide it was also about hiding the shape of legs - if the fabric was wrapping around women's legs too closely it would, you know, provoke indecent thoughts in men lol

That's the whole point of the clothes for Muslim women after all - to hide the shape of the body. Abaya is not only loose but also made from a fabric heavy and stiff enough so that it wouldn't wrap around the woman's body and in this way show its shape.


I always wondered whether they were wearing anything under those skirts ;D

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


Spot on, Lyzko :) I think it's the core of the problem with the usual complaints coming from Westerners here, probably not only the British and Americans, plus, I have an impression that many British haven't lived in other countries before and it's the first serious culture shock they experience.

Life / Poland after one year of living here [105]


This sounds exactly like you in this thread ;D So, yeah, you don't like it here, she doesn't like it in the UK - looks like you guys have a problem...

Luke, it looks like you're suffering from a major culture shock :) Have you ever lived in a different country? People in Poland are different, they are accustomed to their ways and behaviour, food, etc. since they grew up here and I'm sure they don't realise how you view them.

Maybe those links will help a bit:

hthtravelinsurance/travel_center/stud_international/023.cfm
medium/global-perspectives/the-4-stages-of-culture-shock-a79957726164
matadornetwork/bnt/the-4-stages-of-culture-shock-and-how-to-beat-them/

The things you should know:

- people in Poland don't hate you and they aren't out to get you ;)))
- they're not angry at you, just assume we were born with such faces and we can't do anything about it ;D
- we don't smile randomly at strangers here
- we're not very open and we're rather shy, it takes a while for us to warm up to people, to make friends (especially "real friends"/"good friends")


Oh, I'm sure this didn't help...

Chrzanów sounds like a very small city, almost a town so I can't blame you for being bored, etc. Maybe try to go to Kraków from time to time, I'm sure there's more food choice there, etc.

Do you work in Chrzanów? Don't you have any work colleagues? What about men in your wife's family - couldn't you hang out with them a bit?

Btw, letting your frustration out on this forum probably can help a bit, sharing experiences with "fellow immigrants", etc. ;)

Also, maybe find some hobby, buy a dog - dog owners sometimes chat up each other, animals brake the ice ;)

Life / In Poland, are women and girls obligated to wear head scarves in church? [36]


Mantilla in Catholic churches in Poland? Really? Where? I've never seen it myself. Only on TV when some head of state is visiting the pope and their wives wear them then. Until Atch wrote about it I didn't even know what it's called ;)


Yes, this is the origin of this custom and it's still practiced in the Orthodox Church.


Really? I didn't know that. When I was visiting other countries in Europe I haven't noticed much difference. On the other hand when I'm visiting other countries I'm usually focused more on sightseeing rather than on checking what women are wearing so maybe that's the reason ;)


To be honest I didn't even know there was such a ban. I'm not sure whether it was even enforced in Poland, I've never heard of such a thing. I also was never told what I'm supposed to wear when going to church, I always just knew that men should have their heads uncovered, while women can have them covered or not, as they wish (although during summer wearing a hat in a church would be usually seen as a bit strange and rather impolite, I think).

And in all honesty, wearing skirts to church can be a bit painful - you have to kneel from time to time either on cold floor or "footstool" on the bench, so it's better for your knees when you're in trousers.

Also, don't forget that Poland was a communist country for a half a century and all that "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" (Children, Kitchen, Church) and compulsory dressing skirts probably wouldn't go down well as some kind of official dogma for women ;)

As kpc21 wrote, the way you dress to church is rather a matter of common sense and savoir vivre, I don't think I've ever seen in Poland information placards like in Italy where it was shown what I kind of clothes aren't allowed - when I was in Italy some unfortunate tourists couldn't go to Basilica of Saint Anthony in Padua because they weren't dressed in an appropriate way. I could go in because I had long trousers and short sleeves (I made up for this with some cleavage in order not to cook myself and some woman had to comment about that and I felt so embarrassed, I felt like some "wh0re of Babylon" for a few hours xD). For tourists it's a pain because you usually have to walk dressed like this for the rest of the day in the scorching Italian heat.

As for wearing skirts in general - it's as terri wrote - trousers are simply more practical for everyday use. Skirts and dresses can also wrinkle more easily and after a day of wearing it it doesn't look too good. In trousers you can sit in whatever way you like without worrying about showing your panties or the skirt going too high up when you're sitting or sitting on something dirty/cold, etc. I guess skirts and dresses can be seen as sth for more special occasions, when you want to look more elegant or more feminine.

Btw, it's not really why women wear trousers but it came to my mind that an additional bonus is that it's more difficult to rape a woman wearing trousers - there's more undressing, so, at least in theory, a woman has more time to try to escape or hit the rapist on the head with something.

So, yeah, jeans rule ;))