Language / Patrick Ney - Is his Polish Legit? [35]

@ New York

Here's the guy I'm talking about, he's the one without the beard!:



Born in France, Polish father.

Language / Patrick Ney - Is his Polish Legit? [35]


That would include me :)) I'm impressed with anyone who can learn Polish to the level of communicative fluency that Patrick Ney has but I certainly hear the lack of finesse, for want of a better word. However that's not a big deal. As long as people can understand what you're saying to them it doesn't matter if the pronunication is less than perfect. Having said that I am very fussy about it myself when I'm speaking Polish but then as my grammar is so abysmal I have to compensate in some way or I'll sound absolutely awful!


There are certainly foreigners who have passed proficiency exams in Polish at a very high level but I doubt very much that any Chinese or Dutch or French person would ever be mistaken for a native Pole regardless of how good their Polish is. As a native English speaker, the only foreigners I've ever heard who speak English like a native are those who've grown up in an English speaking country, at least from childhood if not from birth. I don't see why it would be different with Polish. But I can appreciate that a speaker of another Slavic language would have an advantage. Nonetheless they would still have to lose the accent of their own country. The Russian accent for example is very strong, all that rolling of the letter 'l', sounds lovely, but doesn't sound Polish!

What do you think of Pascal Brodnicki? When i first heard him years ago I was very impressed but Mr Atch said his Polish is full of mistakes. Now, I can actually hear that his pronunciation is not good. He pronunces the 'ch' in kuchni for example as a hard 'k' sound.

Language / Patrick Ney - Is his Polish Legit? [35]


What's not true? Sorry, I don't follow. My husband says that foreigners can never pass for Polish and I think you're agreeing with that. I don't need to show him the video, as I said, the guy's pronunciation is not good. So what did I say that's not true??

Work / Living off 5500zl in Krakow? (accounting job) [9]

Angela, nobody has answered you because this topic has been covered numerous times already on the forum and all the information is there if you look for it. For example, here's a very recent one and there's a link in it to another recent thread on the same subject. There's really nothing more to add:

https://polishforums.com/work/krakow-living-working-78486/

Language / Patrick Ney - Is his Polish Legit? [35]

I watched a video of him chatting in Polish with a native speaker and he is quite fluent in terms of his ability to communicate. I'm certainly not able to judge his grammar as I speak only the most basic Polish myself and make so many mistakes, but I can say regarding pronunication and that all important aspect 'cadence', that he certainly doesn't sound like a native to my ears. He sounds significantly better when chatting with a native than when talking to camera. Talking straight to the camera his Polish sounds somewhat 'coarse' to my ear but when we are in conversation it's a scientifically observed fact that we pick up on the nuances of the other person's speech and tend to mirror them to some degree.

My husband is Polish and says that no foreginer would ever, ever, be mistaken for a native, no matter how good their Polish. Don't know if other Poles would agree with that??

Just took a look at the video posted above by NoToForeigners. Pronunication is very sloppy. You must pronounce each sound clearly in Polish and his word endings are very fuzzy, an unspeakable crime! (Excuse the pun). :))

Language / "Wszystko w porządku?" - How do you Say? I can't hear the "w" sound. [5]

If you mean the 'w' in the middle between the two main words, no, it's not silent. It's just said very quickly. If you imagine that it's one word 'wporządku' that might help.

Polonia / Work in Denmark? Do you want it? A versatile builder who can speak English needed. [55]


Yes it is. This thread got me interested in labour laws in Denmark. Labour laws there are completely flexible and there isn't even any minimum wage or statutory holiday entitlement. Terms and conditions of employment are negotiated on a case by case basis between employers and employees. Ironically Danish workers are amongst the highest paid in Europe. To me it's typical of that kind of ultra civilised behaviour you can find in Scandanavia. It works in their culture because it's part of the collective behaviour of the nation. Employers expect to pay a decent wage and workers expect to be offered a decent wage. Danes are obviously not prepared to work for peanuts and accept rubbish conditions of employment.

UK, Ireland / Married in Ireland.. can divorce be done in Poland?? [6]

If her husband is non EU or EEA but lives in an EU country (other than Ireland) she could possibly get the divorce in that country but I think it has to be a joint application.

As for a divorce in Poland, there is just no way around the law regardless of what solicitor you use. There is a firm of solicitors in Dublin city centre called Tracey who have a Polish speaking solicitor on their staff and handle divorces between Poland and Ireland. They could certainly advise you. facebook/traceysolicitors/about/

UK, Ireland / Married in Ireland.. can divorce be done in Poland?? [6]

Basically it's down to what nationality her husband is/where he lives. If they're both Polish nationals then she can file for divorce in Poland. If he's not Polish, she can file in the country where he now lives (of course if that's Ireland it's no use to her but if it's Poland or indeed any other EU country that's ok) or she can file in Poland but she needs to go back and live there for six months first. Those are her options in a nutshell.

Here's a link to the divorce laws within the EU:
europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/family/couple/divorce-separation/index_en.htm

It basically has all the information you need.

The one thing that's a bit misleading is the sample story which actually gives an example of a couple married in Ireland but suggests that you can file for divorce after only a month's separation. You need to be living apart for four out of the previous five years.

Work / Can I survive in Poland as a working student? [8]

Chaalsy, please, please, please use a capital letter for English, not lower case. You used caps for all the other words which required them so why not for the English language??

As for English teaching jobs and surviving as a student in Poland there is loads of information on both subjects on this forum in other threads. It's worth taking a couple of hours to peruse them. Ziemowit is right that the best thing to do is submit your CV to one of the Helen Doron centres and see what response you get.

Life / Polish traditions or customs of shaving baby's hair [4]

There doesn't seem to be any such tradition of shaving babies in Polish culture. I'm wondering where the OP got this idea from. It exists in certain Far Eastern countries and within the Muslim and Hindu cultures.


Similar to the western European tradition of dressing a boy in skirts and keeping his hair long. The occasion of donning trousers for the first time was called 'breeching'. It died out gradually but was still very popular in Victorian England. Lots of photos of boys with lovely dresses and beautiful long curls!


Well there wouldn't be as girls kept their hair long. The nearest thing would be the putting up of the hair when they reached marriageable age. In Poland they had some ceremony involving hair before the wedding when the hairstyle was changed from two braids to one, or something like that, can't remember exactly.

News / What impact will Donald Trump's election have on Poland? [331]


I think Zamoyski would know a great deal more than either of us.

News / What impact will Donald Trump's election have on Poland? [331]


Considering that those were your views when you trotted off to dinner you must indeed have been shocked when you heard your dinner companions opining:


I'm not being facetious honestly but you must surely have heard that kind of attitude before, if you've been living in Poland all these years. It's never gone away, that attraction to the 'strong leader' vibe is part of the deeply rooted cultural difference between East and West, because make no mistake about it Poland may be geographically central Europe but politically it still bears all the hallmarks of the old Eastern Bloc.


Did you read Adam Zamoyski's (sic) comment that PIS is not a lurch to the right, it's a return to Soviet style politics.

Poland may not be a failing democracy but it's a struggling one. We've been having an interesting discussion about that on another thread.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]



As you can see it was Wincig and not I who made that comparison. I was merely responding to him.


Sorry the syntax doesn't make sense. What do you mean? And why 1590 in particular?


I'm well aware about the different 'versions' of Poland that emerged under partition.


It's not about voting. It's about a national mindset and culture. What Poland always lacked was a large enough, burgeoning middle class of native Poles. It's with the middle classes generally that the idea of social equality which underpins democracy, first finds expression. Social change occurred on a massive scale in Western Europe during the nineteenth century but not in Poland nor the countries in that region. The foundations of modern democracy and the modern political system were laid in that time. The eighteenth century was the age of enlightenment but the nineteenth saw the spread of liberalism and democratic ideals.


Former Eastern Bloc, Warsaw Pact countries, regarding of their geographical position, accepted definition.


There is no such thing as democracy. It's an illusion. But the illusion that passes for democracy hasn't been very well developed in Poland yet.


Agree. The US is a police state where there exists a very successful illusion of personal freedom but in reality it's a highly controlled and controlling environment.


Though you're not half as clever as you think, I don't believe you can really be that obtuse.

There's an excellent, if lengthy essay here:
economist.com/news/essays/21596796-democracy-was-most-successful-political-idea-20th-century-why-has-it-run-trouble-and-what-can-be-do
which examines among other things, the struggle to establish democracy in newly freed countries. It sums it up very neatly:

Building the institutions needed to sustain democracy is very slow work indeed, and has dispelled the once-popular notion that democracy will blossom rapidly and spontaneously once the seed is planted. Although democracy may be a "universal aspiration", as Mr Bush and Tony Blair insisted, it is a culturally rooted practice.

Western countries almost all extended the right to vote long after the establishment of sophisticated political systems, with powerful civil services and entrenched constitutional rights, in societies that cherished the notions of individual rights and independent judiciaries.

The article is not one sided, I might add. It also takes a critical look at our so-called democratic institutions such as the EU.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]

Slavery in the US is somewhat different because it stems not from feudalism but from the idea that the white man is superior to other races. As for France, I'm not sure where you got that information from but it's not accurate. Serfdom was officially abolished much earlier than that and the last vestiges disappeared during the Napoleonic era. The Slavic nations, being much 'younger' than the western European ones, serfdom was only beginning to take hold there as it was effectively ending in western Europe. By the fifteenth century serfdom was just taking off big time in the East.

As for the Athenian roots of democracy, this is a very good point because it demonstrates how lengthy and gradual the process has been in establishing and developing the modern concept of democracy. The democratic West is a result of centuries of revolution, reforms, changes in attitude and thinking amongst the middle classes and working classes, it has been hard fought for over hundreds of years and established gradually, even down to the Sufragette movement as recently as 100 years ago in Britain. The problem in the East is that it came overnight, lock stock and barrel, as the result of a kind of Tsunami of political change and people just don't know how to deal with it. It's a case of 'ok off you go and be a democracy now', 'oh thank you, but how do we do that?' There isn't a real understanding of democracy yet and it will take a long time before there is.

Polonia / Work in Denmark? Do you want it? A versatile builder who can speak English needed. [55]


You do if it's merely an opinion and not a fact.


Well the socio-economic group pursuing the IB route would be attracted to it for its social prestige. You're also talking about a very small number of native Polish studying the IB. Most Polish teenagers attend a regular state school. The American School in Warsaw for example has nearly a thousand students, but of fifty different nationalities. However I turned up something very interesting:

liberties.eu/en/news/ib-is-a-limitation-for-applicants-to-polish-universities
"On the one hand, the IB diploma is considered equal to Polish Matura in the recruitment process at universities, but on the other hand, IB graduates' access to Polish universities is limited," said Katarzyna Wiśniewska a lawyer at the HFHR.

That could account for why so many pursue their third level studies outside of Poland, they have little choice in the matter.

The problem with access to Polish third level, following IB, in my view is two-fold. Firstly Poland remains very slow to respond to societal change and introduce the necessary reforms. It's simply not good enough that Poland still struggles to integrate itself fully into the EU education system after so many years membership of the EU. Some universities still don't even operate the ECT system. Secondly Poland remains pig ignorant when it comes to understanding equivalency and realizing the high standard of non-Polish qualifications.


Ok, here are the figures for 2015/2016 from the HESA:
Of the top ten EU nations sending students to the UK, Poland comes last with 5,655 up from 5,200 in 2013/14, Germany comes first with 13,425. Strangely enough Romania, which is far from affluent and has a population half the size of Poland sent over 7,000 students to the UK in the same year.

Polonia / Work in Denmark? Do you want it? A versatile builder who can speak English needed. [55]


The figures are from the official UK Census, not 'a consensus'.


That's not an assumption. That's a statistic and it refers to third level studies.


Source? - other than assumption based on personal experience, because if you can provide evidence other than ancedotal, that's a very interesting stat.


No. It was started to advertise a job. The very title of the thread is 'Work in Denmark. Do you want it?' He then goes on to state quite clearly that he may have an opening for someone suitable.


We're not talking about a resident offering their services. It's about an EU employer seeking someone to perform services. Quite a different matter. Obviously if I go to another EU country seeking work, I will be offering my services and it's my decision as to what salary I will accept. However, it would make a nonsense of each country's labour laws if they changed them according to which nationality they're employing. I don't think the idea of freedom of movement is that an EU employer will pay different salaries to their work force determined by their nationality. By your reasoning French, Polish, German, Dutch, doing the same job in the same company in Denmark, would be paid no more than the equivalent of their local salary at home?


I don't think he's an exploiter of Poles. He may be a very nice, decent guy and a good employer. His attitude simply reflects the fact that people still expect to get Poles cheaper than locals. Why seek a Pole otherwise? According to your own theory, only those Poles who can't succeed in Poland go abroad, so why would another EU employer be actively seeking inferior candidates who don't even speak the local language. He's looking for a Pole because they have a reputation for being reasonably skilled and hard working and many of them now speak enough English to manage in their job and he thinks they'll take lower pay because it will still be better than they'd earn in Poland. That was certainly the case ten years ago, but far less so now. Doesn't mean that the man is a monster, just that he's following an accepted business model which is becoming a bit out-dated.



Liberal lefty? Lefty dear,who dear, me dear, no dear. How VERY dare you? Can't abide all that Arts Council grants for black, lesbian, midgets type of nonsense.

News / What impact will Donald Trump's election have on Poland? [331]


Not a very good guess.


Our dear CMS is quite the well travelled, well educated,cosmopolitan, international man of mystery.

Polonia / Work in Denmark? Do you want it? A versatile builder who can speak English needed. [55]


You sound like Angry Frank (Harry Enfield).




That's a very sweeping and very inaccurate statement.
According to the government statistics from the 2011 Census, amongst foreign nationals in the UK 'Polish-born (8.6%) and South African-born (11%) recent arrivals had the lowest proportions of students'. Therefore by your reasoning the majority of Poles in the UK (since such a very small number are students), are the ones who couldn't make it in Poland.

However Poles in the UK are the second most highly educated/qualified group of foreign nationals and Polish born UK residents have the second highest number employed in highly skilled occupations and professional roles.


Why London specifically and not England?? Yes the UK is a great place but unfortunately the concept of equal opportunities has also lead to a 'dumbing down' and lowering of overall standards. The quality of graduates from third level colleges is often woeful. Too many very average people going to second rate universities studying pointless degrees in useless subjects.


Polish employers are generally the pits, agreed, and working conditions, pay etc for the Polish labour force whilst much improved still lag way behind. But that's not the issue on this thread.


Yes it is. And here's how. Polish employers are exploiting their own because that's the state of Polish society at this point in their history. However, here we have a Danish company specifically seeking a Polish worker because they feel they can pay them less than a Dane. What it would equate to is a Polish company seeking a Mongolian worker with basic Polish, because they have the skills to do the job but they'll be cheaper. That's what it would be 'no different to'.

Love / Should I follow her? I met a beautiful Polish woman who has been working in the UK [62]

Then why bother to waste time giving him such lengthy and protracted advice, unless you're a bit odd yourself - that couldn't possibly be the case could it??? I mean it just couldn't, could it.......




Most of the posters who responded are either Polish, have lived in Poland for many years or have Polish partners/spouses so I would say they are just as well qualified if not more so than you are to give advice.

Love / Should I follow her? I met a beautiful Polish woman who has been working in the UK [62]


Didn't read very carefully did you?



Your advice is thus completely irrelevant, one might even say 'tosh', know wot I mean Tosh?


But have not yet mastered the art of speed reading evidently.

UK, Ireland / Has racism towards Polish migrants increased in the UK since Brexit? [22]

They will continue to be judged, what makes you think they're not being judged? Society as a whole, regardless of political views, takes a dim view of violent crime whatever the motives. Only a minority see nothing wrong with it.

Polonia / Work in Denmark? Do you want it? A versatile builder who can speak English needed. [55]


There is no justification for paying a Polish worker less than a Danish one if that worker has equal skills. That kind of attitude, viewing Poles as cheap labour, has to stop. Polish people deserve to be treated with respect as equal Europeans.


Maybe you would but plenty didn't. Many, many Polish people worked for less than their British peers in the first wave of immigration from Poland.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]

Thanks for your kind words Wincig. I particularly relish the 'to the point' as I have three warnings for being off-topic, due to my fabulous sense of humour and homely anecdotes which reguarly get in the way of my equally fabulous insights.

When I say, no tradition of democracy, perhaps I should say, no recent tradition. Poland did have a period during its history when it was flourishing and flowering and showing great promise but it began to go into decline as early as the 17th century and the Constitution you refer to was, with respect, a bit of a flash in the pan. The ideals were there, but never became established, they were stamped out by subsequent events. Poland by the nineteenth century was a bit of a mess thanks to Russia, Prussia et al. Bear in mind that serfdom wasn't abolished in Poland until the 1860s. A society where there exists the concept of fedual service to an overlord and being tied to the land, does not equate to democracy. After WWI there was no chance to establish a strong government or political system before the Nazi invasion. The time frame was just too brief. So there is no firmly established tradition to draw on. The liberal or egalitarian ideals of the past are too long gone to influence modern Polish society and the Polish way of thinking.

Love / Should I follow her? I met a beautiful Polish woman who has been working in the UK [62]

If you put aside the cultural stuff and the homesickness business etc and imagine that she was an English woman and you were having some other issue which was a problem, the fact is that the pair of you are unable to communicate effectively in a mature and adult way without losing your heads. You most certainly should not be considering having children in such a volatile and unstable relationship.


But that's not what counts. What matters is how you get on when she's NOT happy. That's what makes the measure of a relationship, how you get along when times are tough.


This is very common with Polish women. They are moody.


Spot on Ziem. I find them quite teenager-ish. If they're upset about something, they'll pout and sulk and do the martyr face and expect the man to notice that something's wrong rather than just coming straight out with it. Then if the man doesn't notice, they get angry etc.


Yes, if you want the baby wrapped in 'swaddling clothes' like the infant Jesus. Have you read any of the threads on the interference of Babcias in the child rearing process?


A very immature and childish attitude from a woman in her thirties.


Which makes it doubly important to have a loving, understanding and emotionally generous partner who's not solely focused on themselves and what they want out of life.


Yes but you were younger, you were there as a single man for work or life experience and you were free to leave any time with only yourself to consider. Now you'll essentially be in what amounts to a marriage which you'll be under pressure to make work and you're talking about having children. A very different kettle of fish.

And do bear in mind that if you have a child with her and things don't subsequently work out, you will be financially responsible for that child under Polish law for a very, very long time. It is possible to still be paying child support when an adult child is twenty five. Also Polish courts do not determine child support amounts using the same kind of system as the UK. It's completely arbitrary and can be any amount that the judge decides. It's based not on your earnings and outgoings but on your potential earnings and your outgoings are not taken into account at all. The official line (and this is written in law) is that a child should not suffer any material loss/reduction in their standard of living as a result of the separation of his parents. A nice idea but completely unworkable in real life. It's inevitable that both the parents and the child will be materially less well off.

So just think on, cocker, as they'd say in Lancashire.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]


Lame excuse. You don't have to copy-paste. You can paraphrase. That's what I did. Don't tell me that a patriotic Pole such as yourself is too lazy to put a few simple phrases into his own words.


I think there should be a mixture of both. A well written, well researched piece of journalism is always worth reading and can be the starting point for a discussion that then includes personal experience/observations and anecdotal evidence (though Polly for one doesn't like anecdotal evidence when it contradicts his beliefs).


The problem with that Dolno is twofold. Firstly it's a classic sticking plaster over a gaping wound. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on why. Secondly how is it going to be sustained? It's a short term solution and it can't go on indefinitely It will either be reduced or scrapped completely at some point in the future and will cause more suffering in the long run.

Now here's a personal observation. Mr Atch has a colleague, another software engineer. He's in his thirties, his wife is also working in a well paid job. They are in the top bracket of earners in Poland. They are paying a 700,000 PLN mortgage for 60 sq metres in a local authority built block from the latter half of the communist era. It's a two room flat and they have two children, a boy and a girl. So basically you have the anomaly that still exists in Polish society where a very well to do couple are sleeping on a sofa bed in the living room while their children, of different genders, are sharing a room.

To get back to the article, there's an excellent bit by Jiri Pehe, a Czech political analyst who is director of the University of New York in Prague. He sums it up perfectly when he says that:

Developments in Poland show how limited the understanding of democracy still is in most post-communist countries.

and

Even more than 25 years after the fall of communism, significant parts of those societies have not been able to internalize democratic values.

Now Dolno you're in a unique position to understand that, because you're both Polish and British. You grew up in the UK and you can surely see the truth of Pehe's statements. For me it's not a question of PIS or PO, it's a fundamental problem that there is no tradition of democracy in this part of the world. It went from nineteenth century feudalism straight into late twentieth century modernism and your country and other post-communist countries are struggling with that. It's about attitudes, attitudes that permeate all of society to varying degrees and those attitudes affect the ability of the various governments to govern well and wisely and to create a better Poland for Polish people to live in.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]

Did you read the article I linked to Dolno? It's neither right nor left wing. It's simply a discussion/debate representing views of credible individuals from both sides of the argument regarding Poland's politics. It's very interesting.

News / The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland. [129]

There's an excellent article here by numerous contributors, somewhat lengthy but well worth reading:

politico.eu/article/poland-democracy-failing-pis-law-and-justice-media-rule-of-law

By the way Polly you didn't mention that the same poll found that 48% of those surveyed were not happy with the performance of the present government in economic matters.

News / Will eight million Polish people flock to the UK now that we are going for a hard Brexit? [38]

When you say without USA support, do you mean military support Crow or economic?? Or both?

Love / Should I follow her? I met a beautiful Polish woman who has been working in the UK [62]


If you think that will stop once you're in Poland............it will intensify if anything in a myriad of ways. The culture of relationships in Poland is quite different to the UK. Polish women have certain expectations and they can very demanding. When things are not going their way, rather than talking things through with you they will talk about you to friends, family etc and the whole coven will be down on you like a ton of bricks.


Just be careful now. You're in danger of heading down the 'it's all my fault' route. There's usually fault on both sides. Blaming yourself means that you may start kidding yourself that if you do things differently from now on, she'll be happy and everything will be fine. Famous last words.


Honestly Brit, for two people in their thirties, with a bit of life experience behind them, to have toxic stuff going on while you're still in the honeymoon period, after only one year together, does not bode well for the future.


I'm sure she wants the babies. But should you be considering having children in a relationship where you feel the need to come on an internet forum and ask strangers whether they think the future mother actually loves you or not?

A final word of warning. It's not at all uncommon for Polish women to expect their man to go abroad to work and simply send money back to support them and the children. It's an established way of life in Poland. For years women accepted that their husbands would work in Germany and only come home every few months for a visit. It still goes on.

I'll give you two examples. A Polish woman I knew in Ireland, in her late thirties, an accountant by profession, married to an Irish guy, four year old son born in Ireland. Decided she wanted to go back to Poland. At first the plan was that they were both going, pretty natural for a married couple with a child. Then, change of plan. Because of difficulties for husband with language etc husband would stay in Ireland and she would move back with the child. He would visit for a weekend every month. She would live in an old apartment she'd inherited from an aunty and the money from Ireland would pay to renovate it.

The other was a girl in her twenties whom my husband was chatting to, worked in our local Polski sklep, she had a Polish husband. He asked her whether she liked it in Ireland, no not really she said but she was staying because she wanted to have a baby in Ireland and stay long enough so it would have Irish citizenship, then return to Poland, her husband would remain in Ireland and work as he could provide much better for the family that way and they could think about buying a house in Poland.

They just see things differently. They take a very practical approach to life and money and security take precedence over romance. They don't have that 'Western' way of thinking love will conquer all and 'we have each other, as long as we're together, that's the most important thing'.