Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

Do you know whether the etymology of zimno/zima is Greek? I've always wondered since i saw that film.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

She was, but he mentions a Greek word for winter (which he says is the base of the word Kimono) which could (after a shots of vodka) sound like zimno.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

Ah, but they are AL influenced by Greek. Funnily enough, in that clip I attached he says the Greek word for winter is something like 'khimona"... couldn't this be the root of zimno?

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


The problem with that is when you think of how many people actually speak English now, and how many people actually speak Esperanto (4-5 million at a guess). The logistics of teaching it are mind-blowing. Also, if you consider how big the industry for something like ELT is, how easy would it be to generate Esperanto to a workable level (especially when French and German can't compete with English)?

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Um, yeah, that's why they have a national Holocaust Day in UK. That's why kids get sent on school trips to Auschwitz

Language / I need some encouragement from Polish language speakers! [30]


Yeah, my old teacher used to say "because it is!". No explanation would really help anyway.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Some say that it was also possible that they could have lost without US but the US entry sped the process up (still took about 9 months)


Yep, so Germans could have cheap holidays.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


You're welcome, always happy to spread the word.
There's also a recent paperback book called "Agents of Change", which tels about 19th Century Scots and Engineers in Poland/Russia.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


and don't forget WW1, where the intervention of US led to a speedier defeat of the axis powers and the re-establishment of a Polish state.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


If you look at electricscotland.com and look for 'scots around the world', there are three books "Scots in Poland" and "Scots in Germany" "Scots in Prussia" which deal with the matter in depth. They not only brought their families but established guilds, or 'brotherhoods' in many towns.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Perhaps also from French. The Russian royal family spoke French and napoleon spent a bit of time in Poland, as well as guys like Mickiewicz and Chopin spending a lot of time in France.

As for Polish not having much contact with English until 19th C, what about the large Scopts migrations in 16th-17th-18th centuries? Granted, many would have spoken Scots, but also a fair few would have spoken English.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


I was reading it as part of a historical/theatrical background for a PhD on contemporary Polish theatre and the use of ethno-motives and romanticism.


Quite possibly. Probably by a Canadaian with an anti-Q agenda (or a Frenchman!). Obviously, Quebecois educated in standard French wouldn't have a problem.


Agreed. Most English speakers would have trouble speaking with Quebecois.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


I tried reading Adam M and found him bloated as hell in Dziady (OK, Adam, we know you just felt guilty for missing the uprising!), but enjoyed bits of Pan T.

By the way, I'm British ;-)

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


But this is because it is full of historical anachronisms. Many og the words used to be said the way they are spelt, but when the pronunciation died out the spelling was never revised. That's the difference with the Germans, they occasionally revise their language and spelling etc. The British are too headstrong to do that and then waffle on about 'poor literacy' when it would help to just overhaul the spelling.


Don't forget Chaucer!


NO! They're all influenced by Greek!
youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I&feature=related

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


When in Zakopane I read that a certain group of Górale under the leadership of one particular chap (Krzeptowski) actually pushed for the idea of Góralenvolk and attempted to gain membership of SS. Krzeptowski was later tried and hanged by his own clan members.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Krzeptowski
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goralenvolk

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

Doesn't the word 'cravat' come from the word for "Croatian", or is that an urban myth?


We say 'laziness', but how much is also because a number of new phrases and words are based in English and therefore introduced to the world through English medium? I'm thinking of things like 'computer', 'internet' etc. The English base of such words may mean that people often have a greater tendency to either talk about these things in English (where possible) or just adopt further English-based words connected to the subject because their own language (Polish, in this case) simply hasn't developed a home grown version of the word.

Some languages do try to create the words by going back to root language. Finnish, for example, has one of the few words for telephone which isn't based on 'telephone', but on the Finnish for 'far' and 'sound' ('Puhelin', or something... can't remember exactly). Whereas The French Academy tries to maintain the language, there are situations, such as Breton, where activists try to 'cleanse' the language of foreign (French) influence and end up confusing a lot of people. One writer (Mary MacDonald, I think... I can check, if you like) comments that whereas many L1 Bretons (farmers) simply use the Franco-based words for things like 'mail' and 'aeroplane', some activists attempt to go back to root to create 'truly Breton' words and end up creating words like 'flying-horse-cart' for aeroplane, simply because Breton doesn't have an equivalent.

If we consider English, there are those who feel we shouldn't use long Latinate phrases and vocab when we can use good old, honest Anglo-saxon, Germanic words. Some of these people might also object to words like 'hopefully' which were 'invented' by Germans in US in 19th Century.

The world is strange.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Oh, I agree, sir(?), I agree. My post about the linguistic 'development' was without prejudice.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


I got the impression that a lot of the posts were deleted because they weren't strictly about the thread title, however, some were answering earlier posts. This is what I felt was pedantic, if it was indeed the reason.

One post was referring to my own earlier reference to the German based 'kartofli'being popular in warmia. The post pointed out it was 'kartofle' and was widespread across Poland (quite relevant to the thread). I replied and posted, only to find both posts deleted (along with others discussing Slavonic influences into German).

So, why should I, or anyone else, bother with replying with long posts if they are going to be deleted without even such a thing as a warning, before anyone has time to read them?

News / German legal discrimination against Polish speakers [209]


A brit friend of mine is married to a Pole and they called their kid Max. The registrar even asked which spelling they'd prefer.

USA, Canada / Differences in How Polish People Raise a Child and How Americans Raise a Child [149]


Some men pay good money for it... errrm, so I've heard.

USA, Canada / Differences in How Polish People Raise a Child and How Americans Raise a Child [149]

Some friends of mine (Polish/German) were bringing up their kids as vegetarian (both the parents are). the local nurse went nuts at them, despite the fact the mother has a degree in food science and knows a bit about nutrition (and believe me, a lack of good food was never a problem in that house!).

Life / Polish people and Politeness [84]

I think such social niceties are more common in Poland than, for example, young britain. I also think part of it is built into the language. In Poland it is socially and linguistically proper to say Sir/Madam (pan/pani) to someone older or unknown to you. In Britain this would normally be used only in a professional capacity. I can't imagine many British kids saying "Sir", let alone "Ma'am".

What is pretty prevelant (although it's certainly not solely a Polish trait) is the exploitation of politeness by some people. OK, it's polite to hold a door open... but then everyone walks through that door, often without so much as a smile or a 'thank you' as if it is your duty to hold the door for them. Likewise, loud huffing and puffing on the bus when you don't automatically dive up and lay a carpet down for some old granny (and there are empty seats down the bus).

Don't get me started on the post-office queue....

And politeness and driving are odd bedfellows where Polish cars are concerned.

Polonia / Polish people in New Delhi [86]

I hope you have a good time, Ania.

USA, Canada / Differences in How Polish People Raise a Child and How Americans Raise a Child [149]

From a British perspective, one thing I notice is that Polish parents seem less likely to use corporal punishment outside the home. I remember when my sister was visiting once her little son was, well... basically being a brat. His father gave him one wallop on the behind with his hand and junior knew he'd over-stepped big style. The Polish parents looked shocked! Interestingly, I've rarely heard Polish kids talk about physical punishment, spanking etc (which I did when i was in Britain). I wonder how widespread it is.

A british friend of mine is married to a Polish woman (in Poland) and they recently had their first child. of course, the mother was panicing at every sniffle and wouldn't be happy until the baby rattled when you rocked it, with all the pills, vitamins and medicines on the market. Her husband had a more british approach of, "It's just a slight cold. let him build up some resistance." he was soooo happy when the doctor told the mother, "Your husband's British, isn't he? Well, he's probably right!"

It's also interesting that Polish kids seem to take a lot more time off school through sickness than I remember british kids doing (maybe I have a bad memory). It would be interesting to view figures.

Polonia / Polish people in New Delhi [86]

Have fun, Ania. It sounds really exciting.

From a British point of view, I have comic images of lots of Indians complaining,
"Oh no, the Polish are coming over here, taking our jobs and women and setting up corner shops and restaurants everywhere!"

(This is what was said when they, Indians, first came to Britain)
youtube.com/watch?v=vpStoROu0XE

Life / Do expats living in Poland speak Polish? [233]


I imagine this is so, however, I meant Brits/Americans are most used to hearing the language mangled by foreigners. I find in Poland (at least provincial Poland) the idea of a foreigner speaking Polish (especially a brit) is somewhat a novelty.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Ah, of course you have to remember the Americans left Britain before they'd learned the language properly!

Seriously, tho', there's also the 'problem' of US vs UK English, in that many of my studes use constructions which they've picked up from American media (particularly hip-hop!) and which are non-standard. It means I have to learn American, as well. I have an American colleague and he and I often bounce questions off each other about useage and spelling.


I'm not presenting it as anything other than what it is. It's a natural process in language development, whether we like it or not. What we speak is "ours" but what they speak is "theirs". Even within our own lands and languages there are such developments. American English is a prime example, where a number of words and grammatical structures may have developed from L2 immigration ("hopefully" developed amongst German immigrants in US) and/or the continued useage of archaic forms which are no longer standard in BritEng ("gotten"). This then becomes the norm and infiltrates BritEng.

'Dialects', or regional varieties are often different because of cross-cultural pollenation. There are various words more prevalent in some areas because of cultural contacts or intereference from other languages. 'Oxford' English is seen as the standard from historical circumstances: the roayal court was based around that area, as was the oldest university in Britain, and the Oxford 'dialect' was chosen as a standard for printed texts.

Even in langaues such as French, this is common. For all the Quebecois go on about speaking French, the French can't understand them. I was in paris, in a shop, and told the assistant "pardon, je ne pas parle en Francais tres bien" (probably as bad as it reads) He nodded and asked "Anglais? Quebecois?"

("Sorry, I don't speak french very well" "Are you English or Quebecois?"

From what I'm told, if a Parisean meets a Quebecois, they speak English!

This also happened in England many years ago. Chaucer refers to the Nun in Canterbury Tales as speaking "Stratford French", because "English French" was a bit of a joke to educated French speakers in 13th/14th C.

Polish is obviously going to have a similar situation. Norman Davies points out that following the re-establishment of Poland there were soldioers from all three partitions trying to work together using several different forms of language (Russian, german, French etc) and so a standard technical form had to be developed/decided upon.

Likewise, the emigre/diaspora population will have a role in changing the language too. An Australian Croatian friend of mine explained that although she was 1st generation Australian, and spoke fluent Croat, there were some phrases they hadn't learned from their parents (usually profanities), which they just translated directly from English ("give head" was the example she used), which when they visited Croatia, nobody understood, as relevant terms already exist in that language.

Wow, talk about pedantic! The thread had developed into an inclusion of German words in Polish and had included comments on earlier posts... than wham! about half a page consigned to oblivion... I wonder why so many pages sit unanswered for a long time...

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

Interestingly, some observers have suggested that English is actually moving out of the hands of the Native Speakers and into the hands of the second language speakers. As it becomes stronger and stronger as a global language, certain aspects of English which are considered 'non-standard' are likely to become the norm because it is reaching (or has reached the point) where more people speak it as a second language than as a first. therefore, 'mistakes' will become accepted as normal.

I've come across cases where Native speakers were unable to follow Englang conversations between second language speakers, because the references and 'mistakes' were understood by the L2 speakers but not by the L1 speaker.

An example: A Polish businessman and a French businessman were talking about supply of packaging materials. Both used the term 'carton' to refer to a box (it's the French and Polish word). They began joking about the supply network being their 'Cartoon Network'

The Brit didn't know what the hell they were going on about, but they understood each other perfectly, although speaking English.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


There is: Spruce (the tree) is "Prussian Pine". Also Vodka.

grammar-wise, the phrase "I meting with my friends" is more common in US English, possibly as a result of Polish immigrants bringing the Polish form with them and using it in direct translation.


As I see and understand it, German is to Polish what French is to English: most administrative and military terms are derived from it.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

What about all the German words, then?

ratusz (rathaus)
gminy (gemeinde)
kartofli (in Warmia, anyway)
sznycel
świnia
4 pancerni (panzer)

etc.


Bloody foreign words...

Online Etymology Dictionary:

cutlet
1706, from Fr. côtelette, from O.Fr. costelette "little rib," from coste "rib, side," from L. costa (see coast), infl. by Eng. cut.

schnitzel
veal cutlet, 1854, from Ger. Schnitzel "cutlet," lit. "a slice," from Schnitz "a cut, slice" (+ -el, dim. suffix), from schnitzen "to carve," frequentative of schneiden "to cut," from O.H.G. snidan, cognate with O.E. sniþan "to cut," from P.Gmc. *snithanan.

kielbasa
1953, from Pol. kielbasa "sausage" (Rus. kolbasa, SCr. kobasica); perhaps from Turk. kulbasti, "grilled cutlet," lit. "pressed on the ashes." Or perhaps, via Jewish butchers, from Heb. kolbasar "all kinds of meat."