Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

gumishu


No, I did not suggested that, but something of this sort: "jadę do Cortina d'Ampezzo, następnie do Spittal an der Drau, skręcając po drodze do miejscowości Tolmin, a potem do Gemona del Friuli.

I am no the first one to suggest such things. Apparently such discussions take place every two generations or so. And there are always exceptions to the rule:


Poradnia językowa PWN
poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=4563

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Well, go back to Hudson river, if you please.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


"Kapela ze wsi Warszawa" :-)

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Yes. As I said above - a question of familiarity with a proper name.

A phrase "do London w Ontario" (google: 68) sounds OK, "do Londonu w Ontario" (48) - a bit worse, "do Londonu w Ontariu" does not even register.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


"Most na rzece Kwai"? Do you have any problem with it? "Most na Kwaju?". It boils down to familiarity with a name. The well known proper names become polonized in nominative, like Londyn, or Monachium (Mniszkowo); the less known names, like Winnipeg stay as they are, without distortion. All I suggested was not to subject them to a torture of declensions.

And how do you know that I do not say "na Wiśle" in my regular day-to-day conversations? I was theorizing and suggesting possible alternative. But I hope you saw, and not conveniently ignored, the "if we do not know how to decline a city name, such habit [of using nominative] could be useful" part.

Little statistics:
"na rzece Hudson" - google, 121,000 results
"na Hudsonie" - google, 592 results

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Oops - I forgot to translate the following text. It discusses some ways of using compound names in Polish.

Poradnia językowa PWN,
poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=571

Jak to jest z tą odmianą nazw miast? Mówi się Prezydent Miasta Rybnika lub ...Raciborza, ale co z innymi miastami?
Prezydent Miasta Katowic czy ...Katowice? Prezydent Miasta Jastrzębie Zdrój czy ...Jastrzębia Zdroju? - tych miast, co do których mam wątpliwości, jest jeszcze kilka: Będzin, Ruda Śląska, Sosnowiec, Wodzisław Śląski, Bytom, Knurów, Rydułtowy. Jakie tu rządzą zasady pisowni? Dzięki za odpowiedź.

Nie ma tu sztywnej reguły, ale zwykle oba człony - miasto i jego nazwa - są odmieniane: Prezydent Miasta Warszawy (Krakowa, Katowic, Bielska-Białej). Pozostawienie nazwy miasta w mianowniku nie jest błędem, ale nadaje wypowiedzi charakter urzędowy. Gdy nie wiemy, jak nazwa miasta się odmienia, zwyczaj taki może być nawet użyteczny.

Wyrazistsza reguła rządzi nazwami rzek (np. most na rzece Wiśle, nie ...na rzece Wisła) i nazwami stacji kolejowych (tu na odwrót: postój na stacji Koluszki, nie ...na stacji Koluszkach).

- Mirosław Bańko

So please, go easy on me, and step down from your high horse.

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]


I only exited the Linux camp few years ago, after becoming too lazy to play the role of "System administrator". Man, setting up my newest toy was as hard as my first "slackware". This, I hope, exonerates me. :-)

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]

ItsAllAboutME


Here? I am typing from Canada, and I can use any European script (in theory anything, but I never tried it for lack of knowledge/interest in African, Middle Eastern languages) - including math symbols, with most fonts. But I use Hackintosh. Apple always had good Unicode support.

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]


Few of my Canadian friends often recall Wałęsa in conversations and pronounce it correctly.

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]


I guess, the "Latin 2" vs. "Latin 1" unfair division during early computer age, before Unicode revolution, is part of it. In those times Swedes could easily communicate with French (Latin 1) but not with Poles (Latin 2). But some people, including Polish users, do not know how to take advantage of Unicode and stick to old software. I still see some web pages originating from Poland, which are rendered improperly, so instead of "Wałęsa" a reader sees somthing like "Wa%#sa".


The "always" part is not correct. Enter Wałęsa in Google's search field and try news, English results only, in order to eliminate Polish sources. I just did it - one of the top results is this:

Edit - not this one

Google:
What the West Gets Wrong About Belarus‎
Central Europe Digest - Edward Lucas - 2 May 2011
None of the opposition leaders has emerged as a charismatic, credible leader similar to Lech Wałęsa or Václav Havel. It is true that they faced a difficult ...

But statistically - you are right. Edward Lucas (above) is a good friend of Poland, and he knows the correct spelling.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


As a native Polish speaker - I completely agree with you. I actually had one or two problems once during extraction of original spellings from a page full of inflected foreign names. They were lesser known names, but thanks to internet I finally succeeded, I hope. If I had a power of effecting people's minds and habits I would suggest to live the surnames and geographical names alone; no inflection please.

Italian version of "Giovanni Sebastiano Bach" probably looks as funny in Polish eyes as the Polish phrase "z Janem Sebastianem Bachem" in Italian. I do not recall what the current grammatical rules say about using something of this sort: "na rzece Wisła", "w mieście London w prowincji Ontario", "ze wsi Warszawa" but long ago this used to be a proper alternative - avoiding inflections and preserving original names.

Work / Survey about English Teachers working in Poland [8]

First you post this


which causes funny answers and then you post this


without even admitting and apologizing for your mistake.
Very greenish ...

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]


Missus Bucket?

News / POLISH COPS TO BREATHALISE CANOE USERS.... [30]

pawian
Lost?

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News / POLISH COPS TO BREATHALISE CANOE USERS.... [30]


One never knows when such nice relaxing conditions turn to a real disaster: sudden squall (if you are on open water), big waves, unexpected rapids, or just swift current combined with a fallen tree across the river. I know, I experienced all of those. Then you do not need any drunk on board in such conditions. Drinking is fine later, after you made your camp.

And before this thread turns into one of those threads about stupid Poles and their bureaucracy I am eager to report that Canadian Police is very, very strict about such issues. Driving licence taken away, etc.

Life / Uptight Poles [262]


You would not say that Americans, especially Californians, are uptight, would you? And yet even before the days of the total ban on smoking was introduced over there some of them would let you know, either directly or indirectly, that you were a pariah if you dared to have a puff at the table you shared with them outdoors, or at the table nearby. Such behaviour has nothing to do with nationality but about deeply ingrained righteousness. By the way, I do not smoke any more, but I am still tolerant of smokers outdoors.

Language / Pomidor - Tomato (intimate saying) [14]


Looks like diminutives are fashionable nowadays. Here is what I found under "pomidorówka" recipe:
Pierwszy etap ten sam co rosołek:)mięsko myjemy, gotujemy

Language / Pomidor - Tomato (intimate saying) [14]


He said "slang or playful".

"Pomidorówka" is yet another possibility, and you can easily google it.

Language / Pomidor - Tomato (intimate saying) [14]


Besides the cute "pomidorek" the word "pomidorówna" comes to mind, as a tease of some sort. The ending "-ówna" in Polish names is an old fashioned indicator of unmarried ladies.

Life / Calendar of Polish Name Days [36]


No such name in traditional Polish. Seems to me that your in-laws apparently liked the sound of Layla, so they deliberately misspelled the old-fashioned name Lila or Lilianna.

appellationmountain.net/2010/09/08/baby-name-of-the-day-lila/

americannamedaycalendar.com/july.html

July 27: Lila, Lilac, Liliana, Lillian, Lillie, Lilly, Lily

Language / 'Ciężko powiedzieć' (anglicism?) - is it a copy of the English 'hard to say'? [51]

I do not understand why some of you would go into such intricate and lengthy defence of bad language habits. While I agree with the statements: "there are word loans in every language", "meaning of words changes with its usage", I disagree with cheap arguments of "language police" sort and I do not see any justification for supporting mental laziness and bad habits. Polish Language Council and similar institutions, which care about quality of Polish language, have been designed for a good reason and the people that are part of such institutions are not slouches.

Quoting Koala:
"They are also senior people who are simply annoyed that younger generations don't speak Polish in exactly the same way people spoke 40 years ago, which they consider canon of proper Polish."

Using his/her own words from one of his/her other posts - such statement is ridiculous in the context of this thread. This thread is about bad language calques - not about reasonable language loanwords or natural language development. In other words this thread is about "stoi kara na karpecie na kornerze" of old Polonia and similar idiotic expressions popular among some lazy or pompous new generation, including lazy media.

Thank you from the mountain for your attention, Boletus

Businessmen ... and authors of textbooks became the next target of the Polish Language Council (Rada Języka Polskiego, RJP). The Council just presented its biennial report to senators about the state of protection of our native language. The report is quite damning.

Every two years, Polish Language Council checks functioning and the state of protection of the Polish language in various usage areas. Their report for the period 2008-2009 concentrates on the business environment and the textbooks for students of vocational schools.

(...)

... presence of foreign names for professions and positions.
- The convenience of such treatment could be understood, but one should take into account the fact that for many people, the Polish text imbued with such names as "junior account executive", or "event manager" is not only hard to understand, but also blatantly ridicoulus - reads the summary report prepared by prof. Andrzej Markowski.

(...)
- But what struck us most, is the nonchalance in the approach to linguistic correctness. Business communications broadcasters seem to believe that effective communication is more important than its quality - said Dr Kłosińska.

(...)
The analysis of language textbooks for vocational training also leads to pessimistic conclusions. In the opinion of experts, these manuals are too difficult to understand. - Even though, for the last dozen of years, textbooks suppose to be carefully scrutinized and reviewed, many textbooks are still written incorrectly. First of all, they are inappropriate for the perceptive abilities of students to whom they are addressed - stressed Dr. Kłosińska.

As assessed by the experts, sentences used in the textbooks are too difficult to understand - they are too long, overly complex and full of long words of foreign origin. - Objections can be also raised to methods of communication in many textbooks. The prevailing method is a narrative monologue: the authors solely focus on the factual transfer of knowledge, using impersonal style - says the RJP report.

According to Dr Kłosińska, textbooks for vocational schools are written mostly by junior researchers. Publishing houses often have no experience in handling textbooks, and reviewers do not pay attention to such issues. This is because the regulations regarding textbooks, issued by the Minister of Education, have been very vaguely formulated - explains the Secretary of the Council.

(...)
The RJP specialists also looked at the language culture in colleges and universities. According to Dr. Kłosińska, such courses are provided only to some selected faculties, such as Polish Philology or Journalism, but not much attention is being paid to the language culture in science and natural science courses. One would also wish that future teachers were exposed to at least some minimum of language awareness - the secretary said RJP.

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Language / 'Ciężko powiedzieć' (anglicism?) - is it a copy of the English 'hard to say'? [51]

Torq
No, really, I am serious. This is the worst offence I hear here quite often.

Language / 'Ciężko powiedzieć' (anglicism?) - is it a copy of the English 'hard to say'? [51]

And how about "to nie pracuje"? Some of my well educated colleagues, who have been abroad for quite some time, do not see anything wrong with such an expression.

News / Will many Poles migrate to Germany in May 2011 (after opening labor market)? [157]


For those who can read Polish, there is nice satirical article by S. Mizerski, here:
polityka.pl/spoleczenstwo/felietony/1515272,1,z-zycia-sfer.read

I'll try to summarize:
He starts with the dooming prediction that after May the 1st there will be nobody left to finish the projects that were born in such difficulties: the second subway line in Warsaw, the stadiums for the Euro 2012 and the North Bridge - not to mention missing highways.

He then says:
Although the latter are to be build by the Chinese, but seeing what happens, they may also decide to flee. Pessimists anticipate that the only specialists to remain in the country will be the experts in memorials and manufacturers of crosses, candles and torches; that is, the experts in the areas neglected by the West, but which in Poland experience a new Renaissance, and even more - the Middle Ages.

(...)
Then he states that: Opening up of the German market could be a chance for Poles working in the Netherlands. and then explains the Dutch grievances about Poles: they drink, park cars badly, party all night and they do not even speak Dutch.

(...)
But: We must agree that the accusation of the lack of Dutch language skills is particularly biased, because if our countrymen learned the basics of the language then they would began demanding better wages from their Dutch hosts, and consequently the misunderstandings between the two sides would only intensify.

(...)
Some concerns are being raised that by leaving the Netherlands, our compatriots will force the Dutch to do all that murderous work for them, and consequently this would further worsen the current opinion about the Poles: adding the epithet of the loafer to the existing ones of the drunkard and the party animal ignoramus.

(...)
There are suggestions that Poland should retaliate by deciding to expel all unemployed Poles - at least those who drink, party all time, badly park and do not even know any Dutch. The effects of such a step could be devastating for the Netherlands.

Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]


But some like her so much ...

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History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]


Today's Gazeta Wyborcza re-prints an open letter of Lithuanian intellectuals "Litwini do Litwinów", dated April 10, 2011:

With blazing anxiously and sadly observe , as in Lithuania every day is destroyed and desecrated the germ of European Christian civilization : the wisdom and tolerance , humility and charity.

I have seen something similar few weeks before, published somewhere else.

It is an appeal to Lithuanian society to stop playing short term political games and to start seeking agreement with Polish-Lithuanian minority, which are, after all, the citizens of the Lithuanian state, and who wish to live in piece and take care of future of their children.

... Nawołujemy do przezwyciężenia politycznych sprzeczności, do uśmierzania ognia wrogości wzniecanego przez krótkotrwałe cele polityczne, do szukania porozumienia z Polakami z Litwy jak z obywatelami jednego państwa, pragnącymi, jak wszyscy inni, w zgodzie i spokoju układać swoje życie, dbać o dobro swoje i swoich dzieci na tej ziemi.

Signed by:

Antanas Gailius - an intellectual, philosopher, poet, translator, member of the Foundation's Thomas Mann, a former editor of Catholic ed. IDEAS,

doc. Irena Vaišvilaite - Rector of European Humanities University, an opposition activist, former advisor to President V. Adamkus,

prof. Alvydas Jokubaitis - prof. of Institute for International Relations in Vilnius, a political scientist,

doc. V. Paulius Subaeius - expert in Lithuanian affairs, president of the Catholic Academy of Sciences,

prof. Danute Gailiene - prof. psychiatry;

Julius Sasnauskas - Franciscan friar, philosopher, former dissident, songwriter about multiculturalism of Vilnius,

prof. Rimvydas Petrauskas - medievalist historian at the History Faculty of Vilnius University

Language / się - explanation needed ? [13]


Or more common: "umyj się!", perfective aspect.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

Well, I am the last person to provide advice on such matters - usage of definite/indefinite particles is not my strong point, to say the least. :-) What I really meant was "THE NOSE", the one and only one. :-). If it was an error I stand corrected. But I have seen the particle "the" in front of proper names, as in "This defeat really challenged the Merkel's government".

The idiom in question actually exists, in both figurative and direct sense, as in: "Russia received the next flick on the nose" or "With a young puppy, a flick on the nose most of the time will work". This subject was even discussed quite recently on some translators' forum, here:

proz.com/kudoz/polish_to_english/idioms_maxims_sayings/4085344-dać_prztyczka_w_nos.html

By the way, you must have caught my previous message during the editing stage, when I was correcting "this expression" to "the impression".

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

What are you like, modern Polish?
static.unilang.org/babelbabble/index.php?n=20&t=8#up

The question being the title of this article was uttered by one of the greatest modern Polish linguists, Professor J. Miodek, during one of his lectures. According to the Professor, the influences of foreign languages constitute the largest danger to the Polish language, and the most dangerous is English.

Chart 1. What annoys you most in the modern Polish, used in public?
(A public opinion poll conducted by the CBOS)

Chart 2. The number of English loanwords in Polish in the course of time.

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Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

I do not know French, but I have the impression that the text you quote is just a little flick on the Sarkozy's nose and the English words are used here intentionally as a joke - in the similar manner as the Mizerski's quote from my post #239.

Besides. the word «coaching» is enclosed in guillemets, so this would not count as an argument that the French just gave up. :-)