History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Thanks Yerrick - that's fine if you disagree mate.

I think I may need to explain myself more carefully however. When I refer to the Holocaust in the modern context being 'generally' associated with the attempted extermination of the Jewish people, what I mean is that if you were to put this term 'Holocaust' to the average person and ask for their understanding of it, 'generally' the answer would be that it was to do with the deaths of millions of Jewish people in WW2. Does that make sense?


I think it's time for everyone to speak plainly, honestly and respectfully about history. To take somehting back means you owned it. No one owns history, but all people who make up history own the specific parts that they played in it. The problem arises when people like us (who were not contemporaneously part of that history) try to claim ownership of genuinelycontentious historical matters. We must do what we can to avoid that, because my claim to ownership may not be better than yours, and there is no impartial arbiter who can decide priority of claim.

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Respectfully, I disagree. The noun Holocaust has been used throughout the centuries to name such similar acts perpetrated against other peoples, be it on racial or religious grounds. It was not coined specifically as a consequence of the attempted extermination of Jewish people or people of Jewish faith, though I of course appreciate that in the modern context it is in general associated with same, and, undoubtedly, the Jewish people were unparalleled in terms of the savagery and methodical nature in which the Nazis sought to exterminate them and in terms of how many actually perished relative to other groups of people.

It ought be borne in mind that, as one example (other than his plans for Jewish people per se), every Pole (regardless of faith) was, in Hitler's own words, to be killed without mercy or pity. This was attempted, though he was stopped, which meant that people such as you and I are now alive.

In my view, there should be no commodification or naming rights to the term Holocaust, notwithstanding the fact that the Nazis were variable in their zealousness with the speed and manner in which they killed those different people that were subject to it. To do otherwise would arguably be a denial of a remembrance of all those millions of others of different race, nationality and religion who perished under the Holocaust - they should not be marginalised because of a perceived naming right. All the murdered during the Holocaust shared a common killer - they should have at least the dignity of sharing a common remembrance of their passing and a common condemnation of those who sought to liquidate them.


Again, I disagree if you are suggesting that it was just the Jewish people who were murdered in occupied areas after the front moved on. If so, this is clearly untrue. I'd warrant that nearly every member of this forum whose lineage lies in Central/Eastern Europe (for example) had a family member/descendant or knew of someone close to their family who was murdered by the Nazis in some form of operation nowhere near the front lines, and not in the course of what we loosely refer to as 'dying in battle'.


Would you please explain what you mean here, particularly in respect of the insult you refer to?

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Gday Masks98,

You did the right thing mate, and good on you for educating the ignorant. How were you to know this character was a 'philanthropist', or that even if he was, if he would give you any money?

Poland has been subject to dissimulation and Communist propaganda for a long time. I sort of understand why the ignorant say these things in those circumstances, but it's people like you at the grass-roots who do so much to change that.

Cheers, Dan.

History / THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND [12]

Selamat pagi Bu, dan Selamat datang di forum ini. Apa kabar? Saya belajar bahasa Indonesia di Universitas di Australia, tetapi saya bukan(?) untuk(?) berbicara bahasa Indonesia selama kira kira 16 tahun!

Saya rekomend(?) wordlii, lexisnexis, legislationonline untuk anda belajar dari pada Polish legislation di bahasa Ingris.

In English to comply with PF rules:

Said hi, welcomed her to the forum, told her that I studied the Indonesian language but haven't communicated in 16 years and suggested some English language websites for Polish legislation.

History / A Polish Town in Turkey. Who Knew? [9]

Quite a few Poles sought refuge in Turkey after the failed Polish insurrections of the C19, with probably the most notable example being General Bem, who converted to Islam and then served under the Sultan.

History / A question regarding government positions in the C19 [5]


Yes, the term was 'judge'. It could be a mistake though.

Thanks for all your help. It's certainly given me an understanding.

One last thing, would this role of Marszalek have had any connotations of collaboration with the Russians, or would the Marszalek have been seen as the szlachta's intermediary with the Russians? Cheers.


Cheers.

Genealogy / Did the Eastern part of Poland belong to Poland in 1883? (finding out about my ancestors) [6]

Hi Tess

A quick google search reveals that at the time of your dziadek's birth Chelm was indeed occupied by the Russians. Technically, it still belonged to Poland however because Poland never relinquished it to Russia.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


Calm down bro. No need for hyperbole, capital letters and misplaced uses of punctuation marks. Let's leave emotion at the door and discus these terms of settlement you refer to, okay?


Ok bro. If I don't play stupid will you show us a copy of the terms of settlement you refer to?

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]

Fail. Kettle logic. Like I said bro, don't try this type of silliness on me.


Or in other words, you're just having a dummy spit because you got owned.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


C'mon bro, you know these types of thought terminating cliches don't work on me. Why don't you point out why it is nonsense and why it doesn't help anyone, then link that to your assertion (assumedly) that there should be no compensation, then we can have a real discussion.


But this is just a link from Wikipedia, uncited and anonymous. Why don't you show us the actual terms of settlement?

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]

Hi Monia,

Do these calculations on quantum include a percentage increase for loss of opportunity arising from these assets being stolen/destroyed, as well as interest?


This is very important I think, but the problem now is that most of these items will probably now be in the hands of private collectors, who are probably bona fide purchasers for value.


Hi Rich - If you think the argument for compensation in these circumstances is based on a failure to accrue material wealth purely by virtue of a poor work ethic, then you are misconceived.

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure how the transfer of Polish destroyers to the command of Britain before hostilities started was of any help to Poland?

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]


Hi Dreadnought - you're right, Patton was all for a strike to the East, as he saw the writing on the wall. If memory serves, he assessed the situation and saw a strung out Soviet Army (I think he even mentioned their food source as livestock dragged behind them on ropes) who presented an opportunity to be pushed back many hundreds of miles. Imagine this scenario too if Anders had been released (as he requested) to take his Polish Army back to Poland - what about the potential for a few hundred thousand more AK soldiers swelling the ranks (beaten, but as yet unbroken), unrest in the Berling Army, desertions, an upsurge in moral in all Poles, a show of hands from all the rank and file Poms who would join their Polish friends and allies (knowing what I do about the loyalty of Poms to their mates, I'd say 9 out of 10 who served alongside the Poles would probably have gone along with Anders too)...

Realistically, one cannot expect however that any victory over the Soviets would have come lightly. Probably tens of thousands of American and British dead. As much as it would have been a dream come true for the Poles to have their friends and allies become their saviours, I cannot in good conscience see how it would have been fair or just for them to have made that sacrifice for a free Poland. The weight of that on any Pole's conscience would have been unbearable.

History / What do nations of the world owe to Poland and Polish people? [58]


Croissants and coffee.

Kissing ladies' hands.

Modern liberal democratic governance.

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]

Just ignore him mate - come over to the thread I made on those collar questions and see if you can help a bit more.

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [900]


Hi Goofy, this was actualy a Nazi propaganda poster, designed with the intent to agitate the Poles into ceasing assistance for HMG by virtue of the fact that HMG failed to do everything in its power to assist Poland in the early days of WW2, as obliged under the Treaty.

If nothing else, it shows that even the Nazis were aware of the Treaty of Mutual Assistance and its abject failure.

History / Memos show US hushed up Soviet crime against Poland [97]


Hi Tim,

Welcome to the forum. I think what your dad said was probably true of the sentiment of many ordinary British people at the time, as well as the rank and file of the Army - given the nod by HMG, they probably would have fought with their Polish comrades to the bitter end. I made a thread some time ago which you might like to look at in praise of some of the Pommy politicians who risked so much to voice their outrage at the treatment of Poland after the war.


I don't think this would have been fair or just on the British people, because by then it was too late. You'll note that the common conception of some of the fantasists of this forum when put to task about HMG's betrayal of Poland is to say words to the effect of "what could we have done at the end of the war, Britain was broke, tired etc etc". This is clearly designed to obfuscate the real issue, namely that the betrayal lies in the fact, inter alia, that HMG knew of Stalin's designs on Poland from at least as early as the Teheran conference and refused/failed/neglected to tell the Poles, an obligation not only contractually based upon the Treaty of Mutual Assistance of 1939, but, I would argue, a moral one as well. Consequently, from that point, the Poles under the nominal command of HMG were fighting for absolutely nothing to do with their own future and interests as their fate was sealed. I have at various times in this forum elaborated on my position if you feel like looking into that.

Are you aware that Gen. Anders requested the release of Polish units from the command of HMG during the early to mid months of 1945? He was intending to have his Poles travel (or fight) their way back to Poland. He was rebuked and refused, I think by Lord Allenbrooke. If the suggestion that Churchill telegraphed someone at the closing stages of the war to prepare for the possibility of rearming the Germans to potentially fight the Russians is true, it staggers the mind as to why Anders was refused.

Are you also aware that the Independent Polish paratroop brigade that was decimated at Arnhem under the auspices of HMG had a raison d'etre to be dropped in Poland in support of its liberation, specifically in support of the Warsaw Uprising? My dad was in Warsaw at this time and witnessed the Allied supply drops by parachute. The euphoria in Warsaw at seeing these parachutes, and the abject disappointment when it was realised the Polish paras weren't coming, was incalculable..

I think it was General Gubbins who articulated quite well the dynamic between HMG and Poland in WW2 when he said words to the effect that Poland would be squeezed until no more use could be had of it then was to be cast overboard by HMG. Perhaps it was the case that Anders and the Polish paras had not been sufficiently squeezed at the time of the question of their release. Is it any wonder that descendants of these Poles are bitter at the treatment of their forebears.




How do these events sit with you, being half Polish and half German (an honest question)?

Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]


I understood that most Polish Jews were quite well assimilated and it was only a minority who decided not to?

I agree that assimilation is very important, if nothing less than to show respect for the nation that took you in.

History / Czech and Polish character in World War two [81]


It's Groundhog Day!

The entire Polish Navy? I thought it was just 3 Polish Destroyers? Ah, now I remember - the Peking Plan.

To refresh your memory, this was a scheme devised by HMG to remove these ships from the Baltic to go to Britain. The Poles agreed, presumably, amongst other things, in anticipation of having to discharge an obligation under Art 1 of the Treaty you and I know so well. In passing, these Destroyers served under the Royal Navy for the duration of the war (I think one was sunk in battle).

Would you be so kind as to tell me how many of the RN's ships steamed to Poland's aid at or before the commencement of hostilities? Just numbers, if you please - no need for any explanations.



Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


This is an excellent example of argument by innuendo, and I applaud your courage in setting yourself up for correction as an example to show the forum how some posters may be disabused of their mischievous comments.


I'm confused here Haz. You're saying that for the last 50 years all books that say "Britain was responsible" were essentially wrong, and that everyone will learn what really happened given time, it flows that you purport to know what really happened (presumably from your own source of books), but how can anyone believe you when you get something so simple like the Peking Plan so horribly wrong in terms of what actually happened?

It's like the time when you were going to give us the actual invitation of HMG to the Free Poles to the Victory Day celebrations but came back with an itinerary of all things, or like the time you said that the Polish Eastern border was somewhat Sikorski's doing (even though he was dead when it happened), or like the time when I asked you to provide Court judgments to back up your claims and you cut and pasted some blogs, or like the time when you actually cited a judgment but the findings of same actually contradicted your claims...

Honestly, how can anyone believe your claim that we'll all know what really happened when it seems you don't actually know what happened yourself?

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


Indeed. I, in particular, call for a detailed synopsis of how HMG complied with Article 5 of the Treaty after the Teheran Conference. Given that Jon has so vociferously said that the Treaty has been fulfilled, we can only assume he has full knowledge of every time an obligation was triggered then complied with.


The thing that strikes me the most about this speech (and the almost mirror terms of Art 1) is that it is an open offer - he does not caveat the type or quality of support in any way. He does not say, for example, we will offer such support to the extent of dropping leaflets, or such support will not include any form of actual combat, and so on.

Now, if at the time of making this speech (or more relevantly, at the time of the Agreement being executed), Chamberlain was aware that the assistance was to be, relatively speaking, limited, then he misrepresented the situation to Poland. If he was unaware, then he was inept.

Given the relatively short space of time between the Agreement and hostilities commencing, why would HMG not have particularised the form of assistance to be given, because surely they would have known that "all support within their power" meant not much at all, and that the quoted terms would cause Poland to rely on something that simply wasn't going to happen. Again, if they knew, then it was a deception, and if they didn't, they were inept.

History / The Untold Battle of Britain [205]


Ah, a dilettante on the Polish armed forces! Perhaps you could tell me how many English served in the Polish Armed Forces during WW2 prior to capitulation, and then how many subsequently served in the AK (aside from the heroic actions of John Ward of course).

Just figures mind you, no need for any comments, or opinions.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


Ergo, are you then claiming that Britain did lend Poland all support in its power?


Precisely. The burden of proof has shifted, because one cannot prove a negative. It's akin to a a situation where we agree I am to give you all my money consequent on certain events, then upon the obligation being triggered I give you 5 cents, you question that, but I tell you to prove that I had more money to give you - you cannot, because only I am privy to that information.

The failure to show that information can only lead to an inference that had the information been shown, it would not have favoured HMG.

The issue would so easily be settled if the forum's HMG apologists provided that information, but they won't, because they don't have it...


Please refrain from mischievous comments (the reference to 'liberated').


Really? So you're saying that it was within the Navy's power to assist but they chose not to because it was a 'suicide mission'?

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


I too loved this passage. I loved the bit where the German Captain refuses to change sides over to Bohun on the basis that he was contractually obliged to the Polish Crown, and if he did so, no-one would hire them (notwithstanding his assessment that they would die anyway due to being seriously outnumbered!). I'll have to dig out my copy now and reread it!

History / Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland [135]


Was it?

History / Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland [135]



You just got owned Otter.

Hipis, it had always been my understanding the Teutonic knights were invited to the area known as Prussia to assist in conquering the original Prussian inhabitants, subsequently refusing to leave, until being permitted to exist pursuant to the Prussian Homage?


Tell me about it...

He even tried to argue that szlachta weren't nobility.

As to occupation, whenever a foreign power deposits itself, its agents or its proxies, in a sovereign country to which it has no jurisdiction or consent to occupy, that is an occupation. It matters not that the occupied subsequently were forced, cajoled or entreated to set up an indigenous puppet regime (be it political or militarily), moreso, particularly where the occupying power has done so as an act of territorial aggrandisement rather than in retaliation for the occupied commencing hostilities.

If there is no legitimate and genuine consent from the occupied to be occupied, first had and obtained by the occupying power before occupation, then there is no basis upon which to try to legitimise the occupation ex post facto.

Likewise, there is no "Statute of Limitations" or similar preventing discussion on matters that occurred in the 1920's, the 1620's or indeed in any other epoch. To argue that the discussion is not relevant because of some mythical time line is no argument at all and is pure mischief.

History / Are you proud of Polish colours? [27]

I've done some googling.

There appears to be a concensus that the white colour represents peace. Red seems to represent blood shed for Poland, and/or gallantry, bravery etc.

Have a look at worldflags101.com

History / Are you proud of Polish colours? [27]


Hi Pawian. I understood the white on red symbolised a white sky over blood tinged earth? Is this right?


Does my red tie on a white shirt count?

News / Polish politics: Lessons in etiquette [15]


I think he's also credited for snatching a script out of Zamoyski's hands when he was delivering a speech in the Seym.


I think Boletus is taking the ****...

Kind of like saying "Nazi Germany - a lesson in tolerance"