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Posts by jkb  

Joined: 23 Jan 2013 / Male ♂ 		Last Post: 18 Jun 2013
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Posts: Total: 197 / In This Archive: 195
Speaks Polish?: Yes

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jkb   
14 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

See above, disposable income rises with wealth and the ability to pay the tax becomes easier under any form of flat tax that makes them regressive.

So now you're claiming disposable income as the attribute we should be comparing the tax systems against? Then I guess the perfect tax for you would be the one that leaves the tax payer with a constant amount of money after taxation. So, no matter how much I make, whether it's 1.000, 10.000 or 100.000, I should always be left with 1.000 in my pocket. The plot is then tax_rate = (income - 1000) / income * 100%. That is a reverse hyperbola with its limit equal to 100% tax rate at income trending towards +inf. I doubt anyone would want to live under a system like that.

Anyway, the fact that paying the tax is easier due to the amount of "disposable income" doesn't make the tax regressive in its definition. By your definition any tax that's more lenient (placed under the curve described by my previous paragraph) would fall into your definition of a regressive tax. Which is wrong.

See above, disposable income rises with wealth and the ability to pay the tax becomes easier under any form of flat tax that makes them regressive.

See above. The fact you decided to change the definition of regressive tax doesn't make flat tax regressive.

Both are flat taxes, both produce flat line graphs when measured against any variable because they are fixed, one a fixed percentage the other a fixed value. Both are regressive taxes.

You have an incorrect definition of a flat tax. I'm going to contradict it right now. With head tax, plot income on x axis, tax rate on y axis, result: not a flat line. With flat tax, plot income on x axis, amount of tax owed on y axis, result: not a flat line.You can't say any given tax is flat because you can produce an arbitrary plot that is a flat line. You're comparing apples to oranges and calling them equal.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

That is a public knowledge

Just like it's public knowledge that Smolensk wasn't just an accident?

Care to provide a quote of mine stating that or your admittance that you are lying and apology would be in order?

I believe that's the ZOMO reference he made were Klamczynski's exact words.

sure but you are foreigner whit illicit intentions and you would support anything to put down Poland.

you're on a right track of putting it down as an old-timer Pole
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

The rate at which you are taxed is fixed meaning that as your wealth increases the proportion of your income that you pay as tax falls. The rate stays fixed but the proportion falls what is so hard to understand?

So you still do not understand the fact that rate and proportion have the very same meaning. Okay, your gap in math education is not the only issue here, then. Let me explain this to you once and for all: if the rate of tax that I pay remains the same, independent on my income, it means that the proportion of my income i pay as tax to my total income remains the same.

It's regressive because as income increases the proportion of income paid as tax falls.

That's head tax, not flat tax. And I already explained that in my previous post. No one is favoring head tax here. We're talking about positive sides of a flat tax, where the rate remains the same for everyone.

Perhaps it's a language thing or possibly you are a humanities graduate.

It might be a language thing, but your persistence in error is astonishing. I'm not a humanities graduate.
Now let me take these two quotes from Barney and put them together:

The tax rate is the same that is why it's a flat tax, the rate does not change. The rate like the song remains the same the amount paid changes.

a flat tax which when drawn will produce a flat line meaning that the money paid doesn't change with income

So which one is it? The rate remains the same? Or the money paid? Or maybe both? Quit posting cause you're just getting more and more ridiculous. Nothing gets through to you.

I think we're dealing with a seasoned troll here. End of flat tax subject, because some people's skulls are just too thickto penetrate with knowledge.

The social security system like most in the world does need a degree of reform Palikot's proposals have not been costed and as usual calling for a tax cut for the middle class (effectively a subsidy) is no solution, the state will have to pick up the bill for the shortfall.

And why would the state pick up the bill for that?

We discussed this and only jkb answered he suggested to shrink the state but didn't indicate who should be made unemployed.

Start off with the great amount of civil servants. If the government's role gets shrunk, the amount of people it employs should go down drastically.

Where should these people and associated families look for work?

Somewhere where our tax money don't finance their paychecks. Like all other useful workers.

At what distance from your home does your opinion become worthless?

No matter the distance. It's enough you confuse basic facts. Plus living here is a big plus, you actually know the reality.

Do you think Palikot are proposing to make hundreds of thousands unemployed?

He's proposing to reduce government spending, which obviously implies getting rid of lots of useless civil servants that get paid from the budget.

So it's only you who wishes to throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work

I'm who wishes that jobs would actually not be subsidized by public sector so that we all don't have to be funding them.

Can you give a brief outline of how Palikot would create a few hundred thousand jobs?

It's not government's or party's job to create jobs. It's businesses' job to create jobs and the government's job is to create a fertile ground - friendly tax laws - to make it happen.

I understand it involves numbers

You have proven not to understand anything that involves numbers in the slightest.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

You've heard of the 3 x TAK referendum of 1946 I believe. Stalin once said: 'it's not important how people vote, what's important is who counts the ballots.'

And how is that even remotely related to our constitution from 1997?
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

Both (poll and flat rate income tax) are flat taxes they plot flat lines

So now flat rate income tax is a flat tax according to you. At least we're getting somewhere here. Maybe a few more posts and you'll admit that flat rate tax is just a different name for flat tax.

You have one variable and a fixed value it doesn't matter what changes in the variable or what variable you use the rate or fixed cost stays the same ie a flat line.

The problem is that you change what's on the axis between your examples. With that we can create any arbitrary plot, including one that would describe progressive tax using a flat line by adjusting what's being represented on each axis. Now here's a task for you: keep income on X-axis, tax rate on Y-axis and you'll see what is flat and what is not flat. This should be doable by any 6th-grader. You have some serious gaps in your math education.

No, the tax rate is the same, remember it's a fixed rate, the proportion of your income that you pay in tax falls as your income rises.

You just managed to contradict yourself in one sentence. Rate = proportion. How can a rate be fixed if the proportion falls? I think rates and proportions are covered in the 4th grade. Even worse gaps in your math education.

Any serious article or report (see links above) describes the poll tax as a flat tax

The link you posted does not describe that. The links I posted all prove your wrong.

All flat taxes are regressive they are a very easy sell that's why some people like them

How is flat tax a regressive tax? So now you're trying to imply that despite the rate being the same the rate decreases with income?

Care to demonstrate how I'm wrong Harry? Now you will have to be careful as there are numbers involved.

I think it's time you just stop and admit you're wrong. Because right now you're just pushing yourself into ridicule.

This was not a fairy tale, but a legal system.

Oh the legal system was 100% real. It's the bible I was referring to.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

Who controlsl the media controls the state.

And who controls the media? Today, we have such diversity in this field that everyone can choose what they want to read or watch according to their liking. Don't like GW, read Rzepa. Don't like TVN, watch Trwam. It's entirely up to you.

but as 'Nocna zmiana' clearly showed, the whole busienss had an unsavoury, shady and conspriatorial backroom air about it

So "conspirational" that the conspirators let themselves be openly filmed, on Walesa's request. Medias were also present. Nocna zmiana is just a great example of terrible journalism.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

good for you

glad you admit it

No really he ****** a few people and then kicked them out. It fairly common occurrence in PO echelons by now.

If you say so. I don't support PO, not my problem.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Poland's Nationalists hold congress [132]

the currrent German government lead by a Marxist Commie upheld that ruling

Merkel a Marxist Commie. That's golden :)

I'm not going to support some idiots who want to start a new nation WTF?

Separatism is dangerous.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

you know a thing or two about that right?

Not from my own perspective, but looking at people like you, yeah. I can tell.

You are a true Tuskitie then, do you lick his buts every-so often?

A Tuskite that doesn't like or support Tusk. That must be a new thing.

No problem referendum could be held for a new Constitution.

Just like it was before.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Poland's Nationalists hold congress [132]

nd as I said- many ppl won't forget him this.

Because Kaczyński like no one else knows how to unite his enemies against him and then find some new ones too.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

Some basic maths may be in order here rather than google or wiki.

Bring it on

A flat or fixed tax is a tax that remains the same for everyone, regardless of income and other factors, it plots a flat line.

A flat tax is a flat rate tax. A fixed tax, head tax is a tax at a constant value. Fixed tax plots a flat line when you consider a function from income to amount of tax owed. Flat rate tax, also widely known as flat tax, produces a flat line when considering a function from income to the rate of tax.

The tax is "flat" because it can be graphed against any other factor and still result in a flat line

Incorrect. The head tax, which you're very stubborn to erroneously refer to as the flat tax, is in its nature a regressive tax. The more income you have, the lesser your tax rate is. If the amount of tax owed is at a constant X, then the function from income to rate can be described as: Tax_rate = (Your_income / X) * 100% and it plots a hyperbola. This is not a flat tax/flat rate tax.

they want to tax the poor to pay for the rich throwing out the concept of ability to pa

So you're implying that lowering the tax brackets from 18/32 to, let's say, flat 15%, and reducing ZUS costs for self-employed, is going to increase the tax burden on the low and middle class. That's makes sense. In a parallel universe, where logic is irrelevant.

I'm just correct

You just got schooled.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

The patriotic truly Polish AWS (Solidarity Electoral Action) led by Jerzy Buzek was dead set against it but got outvoted.

Buzek £obuzek and his butt buddy "w krzaki z takim". Thanks, but no thanks.

it even lacks a clear 'incvocatio Dei' in its preamble

Why would anyone want to waste paper on that...
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

As far as I understand it, it's perfectly legal in Polish politics to bring down Governments. Didn't PiS just try recently to do just that?

It's part of a democratic process.

As for Olszewski's government - it was always going to be hard to run a Government with such a messy political outcome as the 1991 election.

That's one of the reason why the 5% barrier has been introduced.

I never knew Ironside was such a supporter of gay marriage! :)

Told you, crypto-homosexuality in its finest :)
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

Clearly Barney confuses head tax, capitation tax or other tax per head concepts with flat tax. He's so persistent in his error that it's pretty concerning.

Exodus 30:11-16:

Quoting fairy tales in a tax rate discussion?
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

I know exactly what a flat tax is

Yet you keep proving otherwise.

Now for the rest of your post I don't care if this movement is left or right wing (I knew it was solidly right because of the policies) what I found amusing was the insistence that they were left wing because of the stunts or because they are anti church for example, that is a childish reading of political posturing last seen in the sixth form.

I agree, describing current political parties and views based on a classification originating in 18th century and applying to French politics, is greatly outdated.

I am numerate and know what a flat rate is and am literate enough to know that it's still unfair.

You still prove otherwise. You say poll tax is flax tax, which is outright stupid.

First of all who is this we, I thought I was responding to an individual not a committee

You are replying in a thread, where more than one person is speaking out. If you want to respond to an individual, use private messaging.

No big government and so on, the same Tea party stuff that's grand think that stuff its just fine until you need bailed out or get sick and so on.

Let the government take all your earnings and let it decide what's best for you, then. That sounds like a good idea. Oh wait...

That is a flat rate tax not a flat tax which when drawn will produce a flat line meaning that the money paid doesn't change with income. The graph is a flat line that is why it's called a flat tax

It proves that you dont know what a flat tax is.

Stop speaking unsubstantiated garbage. Here's some reading for you to get educated:

investopedia.com/terms/f/flattax.asp
thefreedictionary.com/flat+tax
hoover.org/publications/books/8329

and these are just to start you off. Flat tax is a flat line graph when depicting a function of income to rate, not income to the amount of tax paid. Flat tax is also a short term for flat rate tax. So either you don't understand the concept or you don't understand English. Either way is bad.
jkb   
13 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

PiS exists because people are ignorant

Spot on. Why else? The sole reason for PiS' existence is the fact that people are ignorant. I don't see any other reason for them to have such large popularity.

That is about changing system ie people who showed their hand overthrowing Olszewski government.

Firstly, was there anything illegal about it? Secondly, was there anything good about Olszewski's government?

No he is saying that whatever deals have been made. Have been made in secret and for that they had no authorization, nor mandate. In fact all so called Round Table have been a deal between Soviets Poles and selected by them people form opposition.

Even if so, it got rid of the old system. For that we should all be grateful.

Walensa didn't have the right to represent Solidarity.

Then who did? And it's Walesa.

What's wrong with the Constitution?

A few things. Like defining marriage as between man and woman only. I agree with Ironside here that this should be changed.

It's not as if Olszewski's government was anything special in the way that it fell apart.

Good riddance basically.

For your attitude here and for your words you need to earn the right to debate with me.

HAHA. Thanks for the good laugh. One indeed must earn their right to descend into the gutter.

Do you watch TV

Well unfortunately, TV in Poland is rather stupifying.

In reality it is nothing but a hot air

Are you trying to say that PiS having so much popularity in opposition is just hot air? I have to agree with that.
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

What actually makes it far worse is that very little is taught about the post-war era, despite it being of massive importance.

That's true. Post-war history is virtually nonexistent in history lessons.

But but...THEY DIDN'T HAVE COUNTLESS HOURS ABOUT THE PIAST KINGS!

lol
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

A millionaire paying the same rate as a cleaner is clearly unfair.

A millionaire paying the same amount of tax as a cleaner is unfair. But a millionaire paying the same rate is very fair. As an example: if you make $1000, you pay $100. If you make $100.000, you pay $10.000. How is that unfair? Give X percent of whatever you make. It's as fair as it can be. It's unfair if the rate changes with your wealth. Look at the countries that introduced high rates for the wealthiest. How is it fair if the taxman takes 75% of your income?

This is like discussing with a Tweenie, the same thing as yesterday......every political party presents its self as good for both business and worker, again its a cliche used by those devoid of ideas.

Quite the opposite. We're giving you bullet points on what is being proposed and how is it good, yet you keep on banging your head against the wall yelling "cliche". He's not just saying "let's fix the economy" having nothing of value behind it.

Privatising Pensions is a mad policy the state ends up paying for the shortfall

People need to learn responsibility. Reduce tax burden and let people save their own money for their retirement.

You have explained the exact Tea party policies of this project but at least you knew it was a right wing thing.

Of course it's right wing. Economically right wing. Giving individual members of the society more rights and freedom to do what they please with their money.

Yeah but I could flip that and say, what kind of left wing party would be anti abortion and gay marriage? It is unheard of.

PiS is economically left when it comes to taxes, government interventionism and so on. PiS is rightist when it comes to family values, sexuality, reproductive rights, religion. So in general, PiS is a christian - leftist party. The complete opposite of Palikot, who is libertarian - rightist in most of his policies.

The truth might well be [as somebody mentioned in a post] that left and right wing is either out of date and we need different categories, or the criteria that has to be met, for a party to be considered left or right, needs to be heavily tweaked.

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-palikot-liberal-modern-46911/4/#msg1375356

Which is why describing PiS as Catholic-Socialist is the best possible label. And there - fundamentally - is nothing wrong with that, as it's very appealing to Polish voters. The problem is that the centrist electorate who might be persuaded by such a party wants nothing to do with the extreme positions that PiS have taken.

Exactly. Although socialist is not the best description. Social would be better. To back this up: UK is a highly social country, but it's not socialist. PRL used to be a socialist country, just like any other country of the Eastern Bloc. Know the difference.

Delph a poll tax is a flat tax

I think Barney's problem is that he doesn't understand what a flat tax is. A flat tax imposes the same rate of tax on everyone. Not the same amount of tax. Because you seem to disagree that flat tax is socially unfair, but also claim that Louisiana's $1 poll tax or Mississippi $2 poll tax are examples of flat tax, shows your grave misunderstanding of this term.

Everyone pays the same a flat tax the poll tax.

And this only proves it.
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

What about the upgraded history teaching curriculum?

What our youth needs right now is an upgraded math and science curriculum, cause they are getting out of school completely under-educated in this field. History is important, but its whole material shouldn't be compulsory. You won't feed your kids with history. Math on the other hand is highly practical and useful in a large number of fields. That being said, if a person knows what year did the November uprising happen, but doesn't know how to calculate the area of a rectangle or volume of a cube, the person just finished their high school education as a moron. Making math compulsory on matura is a good first step. Just the difficulty level should be turned up quite a lot to match other matura tests.
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / Poland's Nationalists hold congress [132]

As an example, do some research why does the German minority always get seats in Sejm, despite having nowhere near 5% of popular vote.
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

For a second I thought that was a different topic but quickly realized it was an earlier post which I missed.
The Nolan chart looks familiar. I think thats the one Political Compass (a website) uses if I remember.
However, from what Ive seen, its still not that mainstream. Another problem is even the Nolan chart uses "left" and "right". Maybe should be renamed (I realize it says economic). I dunno.

Yes, that's the political compass. And it provides a good mapping of political views that cannot be just classified as left or right. The economical left and right that Nolan chooses are exactly that, restricted to economy only. So less tax burden, less government, etc. would be considered rightist, whereas the opposite would be considered leftist. One could argue to rename them to "economical freedom" and "economical authoritarianism", but the meaning would remain the same. So many arguments about who is leftist, who is rightist, could be easily solved by just using that chart.

People would start realizing that Kaczynski is a leftist authoritarian, Palikot is a rightist libertarian and stop being confused.

What this movement is proposing is nonsense. It doesn't matter how many free condoms are distributed or how many people are shocked at the sight of a dildo the fact remains that without any chance of progression people will be left to stagnate while the rich get richer.

I thought we were discussing economical values. How is that related?

The idea that a flat tax rate will somehow generate more tax income is a fantasy and it is also fundamentally unfair

How is it unfair? Every single PLN is taxed using the same tax rate, that's very fair. Richer still pay more taxes as their taxed income is higher. I'm still going to refer you to the Laffer curve. Seriously, do some reading.

More cliches, can you name a political party anywhere that doesn't say the same thing?

Can you name one that does?

I'm glad that there are no serious parties effectively proposing to privatise pensions.

And there should be. The public pension should be reduced to minimum, just like in America. Over the years you are working, you should be saving for your own retirement. See 401(k), 403(b) and such. It will teach people responsibility and greatly reduce the government input. Which is what our social security system needs.

It's not a problem for you, but for young people having to pay 1000zl a month in compulsory ZUS contributions for their small business, it is.

They are now discounted for the first 2 years of operation. That doesn't change the fact that ZUS premium should be a percentage of income, not a set value. Someone who has a loss still needs to pay this outrageous amount of money for a new palace for ZUS.

That would leave a huge hole in their budget.

Start cutting down on government spending then
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / 4th Polish Republic may re-emerge [244]

but you have yet to say a single good word about PiS and the brothers

I think the only thing that I can honestly say was good about PiS's rule was reducing the tax progressive scale from 19-30-40 to 18-32. Nothing else was worth these 2 years of mess.
jkb   
12 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

was it a painful experience, shee

you tell me

I think he is worse than the communism-drenched SLD.

Definitely better then Christianl-leftist PiS.

he is basically a [very] far lefty,

Yes, he has many leftist postulates such as flat tax and decreasing the role of government in peoples' lives. Saying a party if leftist or rightist doesn't cut it anymore.

I don't believe, when I hear him, that he really cares about what he proposes.

Why wouldn't he? It's a way of changing our country, a good way.

I think he knows that Poland, no matter what some may say, is still, essentially, at its core, a Christian, generally right wing country

Which hopefully will change sooner or later

When he says the stuff he says, he knows it will anger the majority, and get him attention.

So it's just like PiS. When they say the stuff they say, they know it will anger the majority, and get them attention. That's why PiS has so much negative elctorate.

He will also be loved and adored, by the minority, who have similar views to him, and see him as their great night in shining armour.

Nowhere near that, merely a person who filled the void in Polish political scene. But since he did, a lot of unrepresented people got someone to vote for.

How will introducing a flat tax rate help Poland and save the economy?

I'm going to refer you to the Laffer curve regarding how decreasing any sort of tax burden can increase tax revenue. And that's just for starters.

The movement is a joke, conning people with apparently liberal sounding policies while removing the possibility of real change, it's the politics of the class room.

Do your homework, as what he's offering is indeed a real change.

There are only so many coffee mornings one can attend before disillusionment set in and its on to the next big thing.

Then why do PiS or SLD still have so much popularity?

as anyone with half a brain can see that abolishing KRUS and reforming ZUS is anything but "very far left".

Clearly, they show lack of independent thinking in this matter. "I heard they're leftist so they must be leftist". Calling a circle square doesn't make it one.

He's just a liberal businessman.

Good. At least he's not in it for money but for the program and the ideas his party stands for.

are you confusing your left with your right.

There is not a single party he mentioned that would have a truly rightist economical program. So doubtful he's confusing anything. PiS is just like SLD with a great doze of bigotry.
jkb   
11 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

I do they are offering a disaster for Poland

Quite the opposite

come on don't be shy, you looved that ....

Nah, not really, but you keep bringing this up, so something must be going on

Not in temrs of public support and that's what counts at the polls. Their last showing was purely a fluke which will never be repeated

Only time will show
jkb   
11 Jun 2013
News / Palikot - too liberal/modern for Poland? [197]

No longer, SLD is third.

Last time I checked Palikot was still the third biggest party in Sejm. Or are you quoting the polls? The same polls that used to give him 1-2% of popular vote?

Palikot may squeak into the Sejm in 2015 if he can get enough off-the-wall voters to give him the 5%. If so, he'll again be teh Sejm's fly in the ointment or a peskily buzzing mozzie.

He initiated way more social debates in 2 years than anyone else within the last 2 decades. It makes people realize that some things can actually change and Poland can finally become a progressive, not a backward country.

Actually a band of clowns may even provide some colour and diversion to lighten the atmosphere on occasion.

Palikot and his party have an agenda and so far they do all they can to keep it right on track.