News / 2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere! [231]


They'll never do that because, as you may have noticed, they basically don't like many other European countries, particularly those who have a stable enough democracy to have established such tried and tested methods.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


Why do you think it isn't?:

Some very upset members of the public discussing immigration in their neighbourhood on BBC:
youtube.com/watch?v=rK3JAL3hKRo

People of Wakefield respond to 'Condescending Liberal' on the subject of immigration:
youtube.com/watch?v=zQS8Nkm47qo

Topic, is Britain no longer British?
youtube.com/watch?v=oaNnatCed7Y

I'm not sure if you feel that these examples constitute open discussion. I'd say the very eloquent member of the public, from Wakefield in the first clip certainly gets to make his point. I only put three links because the Mods are not overly fond of them but pretty much every issue you mention would be debated on Question Time at some point.

I'm not quite sure what your point is Maf. Are you saying that Britain is in fact just the same as Poland in terms of no debate on the really important issues?? I couldn't agree.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


I'm afraid it's always been that way in Poland from my recollections even when 'the other crowd' as I call Civic Platform were in power. I remember ten years ago, as an outsider, being forcibly struck by the weirdness of Polish politics. I even made a note in my diary about how political debate and discussion seemd to consist soley of 'scandal' 'affairs' and 'lustracje'. Everything else such as health, education etc came under the heading of a 'matter', a seemingly unimportant minor issue. The measure of the government's success seemed to be taken on the basis of how effective they were at punishing, purging and taking revenge on 'traitors'. It's medieval by our standards. We were talking about 'social trust' and how that is conspicuously lacking in Poland. There is a deeply rooted culture of suspicion and scepticism at every level of society.

The thing is that from our point of view as people from the British Isles, we simply cannot understand how far removed our political world is from the post-Communist countries. I don't want to sound patronizing or condescending but it is stating a simple fact to say that they are politically immature and their development can't be forced. It will have to happen in its own time.

I also think an important difference is that the general public, due to Poland's history, has held a belief that they have no real power to inluence anything. Now contrast that with Britain - take something as basic as the ancient concept of public right of way over private land and how ordinary English people have defended that tooth and nail. A completely different culture and you can't recreate it in Poland. Also, in Britain, there has been a systematic programme of development and social reform which has been built upon for countless generations. Certain fundamental basics are so solidly established that it's possible to concentrate on the important current issues. Poland still hasn't got the basics and has to cope with all the extras and it's struggling.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

We also had high levels of social trust - oh yes, everything Irish is much, much better than everywhere else :D The custom of fostering in particular which was widely practised helped to develop that. It was practised at every level of society from the earliest pre-Christian times up until the early 18th century, and the Normans adopted it, sending their children to be fostered by Gaelic families which is one of the reasons for the Normans becoming completely Gaelicsized. It was basically designed to encourage peace and social bonding in a rather war-like society where rival clans were constantly at battle.

Children were fostered upwards and downwards on the social scale though they had to be educated to fit their future role in life when they returned to their birth families at maturity and both boys and girls were fostered. It thus created not only a more peaceful but a more socially equal and fluid society where class boundaries were diminished, and networks were established bridging class differences. There was also a set of very detailed laws governing fosterage and penalties for breaking them, designed to protect the child from abuse or neglect. That also increases social trust, the feeling that a higher authority cares about you as an individual, acknowledges your rights as the parent, is concerned for the well being of your child and that action will be taken if those rights are violated.

It's in complete contrast to the wider European (and indeed English) feudal tradition where there is no crossing or blurring of social boundaries, where everyone has a very fixed position in society and belongs in their own category and never steps outside it. They relate to others only in relation to their own place in the pecking order and if you're at the bottom of that pile you have no status other than being a chattel of your overlord. The interesting thing is that in Slavic nations, because they are younger, the Feudal system was only beginning to take hold when it was almost done with in the rest of Europe.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


I think that's rather harsh.


I'll take that as the joke which I believe it must surely be. We had a highly socially developed society long before the English arrived and in fact the first wave of 'English' settlers were Norman and Catholic and became so Gaelicsized that by the end of the fourteenth century the English crown was bemoaning the fact that they had adopted the laws and usage, manners, language and fashions of 'the Irish enemies'. The next wave of settlers were the aggressive Planters whose legacy remains in the North of Ireland,what do you think of the social capital up there Maf? Sorry but suggesting that 'backward Catholic Ireland' was made a socially, more equal and inclusive place by the English is laughable. You'll have to come up with a better explanation of high levels of social capital in a Catholic country.

In any case I don't see why Catholicism would result in lower social capital but seeing as we find it hard to agree on what social capital is in the first place, that's probably not surprising. However if you take a definition as a combination of both yours and mine we can still agree that it's low in Poland.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


I suppose definitions vary but it's basically about people. In Ireland the Central Statistics Office says that 'in essence the central premise of social capital is that there is value in social networks (who people know), and that these networks can lead to people assisting each other in all sorts of ways.'


That doesn't make sense to me. How would you account for the high levels of trust in Irish society in that case?

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


Oh absolutely. It's far too early to be complacent. Clearly some action was needed and it certainly took him long enough to react. Dithering Duda! (You know that expression to be 'all-of-a-dither-and-a-doodah', how apt). I suspect it was a step taken as a result of off-the record discussions with the EU and perhaps the USA. Bascially, Poland was undoubtedly facing EU sanctions, despite Hungary's support because Hungary itself is not to be relied upon. They could climb down at the last minute, as indeed Poland did to them over the refugee quota vote. Stephen Fry says that his Hungarian grandfather said that Hungarians are so slippery and dodgy that a Hungarian is the only man who can enter a revolving door behind you and come out ahead of you.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

The interesting thing is that Polly is displaying another typically Polish trait of belief in conspiracy theories which once again, according to reputable and widely ranging research, is higher in Poland than in any other former Communist country. No doubt those who support such theories would declare that this is evidence of how shrewd Poles are and how gullible the entire civilised, or rather developed world is.

@Polly, you can't have it both ways. Whingeing and moaning as you do about a heartless, selfish, greedy, materialistic world and at the same time whingeing and moaning about charities and organisations dedicated to creating a more caring society.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


The tongue wouldn't be lodged in the cheek there now would it? :)) It would also suffice to say that I am now, have always been and will always be right about absolutely everything. That covers all options :) I fear I am turning into InPolska with all the smiley faces. The difference is that mine are genuine and hers were a vain attempt at covering her Gallic arse, having just said something really nasty and insulting.


Apparently when the term first appeared it was defined as:

"those tangible assets [that] count for most in the daily lives of people: namely goodwill, fellowship, sympathy, and social intercourse among the individuals and families who make up a social unit".

Nowadays the OECD defines it under three main headings :

Bonds: Links to people based on a sense of common identity ("people like us") - such as family, close friends and people who share our culture or ethnicity.

Bridges: Links that stretch beyond a shared sense of identity, for example to distant friends, colleagues and associates.

Linkages: Links to people or groups further up or lower down the social ladder.

I took a quick look at some research regarding the social capital in Poland and found that apparently studies conducted by various sources show amongst other things, a consistently a 'very low level' of social trust in Polish society with the political and intellectual figures being perceived in a particularly negative way. Others who are very negatively perceived include successful women (though 'women' in general are liked in the same category as the elderly or disabled!), scientists, feminists, Germans and the 'rich'. These are all categories whom those surveyed view with distrust. Imagine being a rich, female, German, scientist!!

Another interesting thing is that of the former Eastern Bloc countries Slovenia, Estonia and Czech Republic are the leaders in terms of social capital whilst the lowest are Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

Work / Salary for a senior software engineer in Poland [195]



Without specific information about your skill set it's hard to determine exactly what your salary could be in the other countries you mention. Don't know about the Netherlands but in Ireland salaries in IT are generally very high, much higher than Poland. So I imagine that if you're being offered the equivalent of 50,000 euros gross in Poland, then you will be likely to be offered about 70,000-80,000 in Ireland but it could be more. Here's a link to one of the top recruiters in Ireland with a list of salaries for the different roles, maybe you can identify your own earning potential from it:

morganmckinley.ie/article/2017-it-permanent-salary-guide

As you can see the salaries vary by city with the highest being in Dublin which is the capital, but then Dublin is also the most expensive in terms of rent. If you take a job in another smaller city such as Galway, be warned that there is virtually no public transport and unless you live in the heart of the town, you may need a car. The main problem with Ireland is that the cost of living is very high and rents are absolutely shocking. You can pay 2,000 euros for a two bed apartment in Dublin.

Here's a link to the most popular property site for renting:

daft.ie

On the plus side, Ireland is a friendly place and very clean, healthy air for raising a newborn :)) even Dublin has low levels of air pollution and miles of beautiful coastline and beaches with a train running along it so very easy to access.


Having a maid in just to do your cooking every day is very unusual in Europe though it is normal for professional couples who are out all day at work to get somebody in to do some basic cleaning and house work for an hour or two a couple of times a week. Must say, as a woman myself, if I were home all dayI really couldn't justify getting somebody to do my cooking for me unless, God forbid, I were disabled and not capable of doing it. If you want somebody to cook Indian dishes you will struggle to find anybody in Poland who can do that. Your wife would have to spend so much time showing them how to do it that she might as well do it herself! :))

News / 2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere! [231]

Well I'm afraid that's the level of Polish politics Polly. It's like that because there's no history of gradual reform towards a modern democracy over a time span of couple of hundred years as was the experience further west.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

Ok how about:

The social capital is bigger in Germany, Ireland or anywhere in western Europe than it is in Poland. I think that's a bit clearer. What say you 'mon brave'?

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

With respect Ziem you said 'much higher' than anywhere including Ireland, and it's not much higher than Ireland, only a teeny, weeny little bit higher - and they don't have a sense of humour so that cancels out the teeny weeny bit :)) It would be interesting though to do a bit of further research and see how Poland compares to other post-Communist countries in terms of the social capital.

Oh woops! I've just re-read your original post and indeed I misinterpreted it. Perhaps you should have put your brackets in a different position. Let me mull that over.........

News / 2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere! [231]

What did I say about Duda lacking credibility?? And you didn't agree. And now a couple of days later.............

Duda has a couple of problems which render him a poor leader. The first is that he lacks real nuts and bolts experience. He was a minor player, handpicked for his position by the Old Guard precisely because he was nobody of importance with no history and no baggage. Therefore he made an acceptable 'new face of PIS' to lull the public and indeed the wider world into a mis-placed sense of confidence. Following on from that is problem number two which is that he is not his own man, he is JK's man and he lacks the courage and decisiveness to make his own decisions. When faced with a crisis which has actually been brought about by his mentor, he therefore has no idea how to proceed and obviously the mentor wants him to carry on, but Duda is dimly aware that this will have disastrous consequences. He showed no leadership whatsoever over the last few days, he simply allowed the nation to flounder in no-man's land while he tried to act this act together.

Gumi, Duda is a lightweight and that's a fact. I wonder if Tusk had a word in his ear. He had requested a meeting I know, but perhaps a well placed phone call did the trick.

News / 2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere! [231]

Of course if Duda hadn't used his powers of Veto, then the next election could have been rigged anyway to get him back into power but power over what? I mean what state would Poland be in without the EU and America, which is basically what it's facing if it continues down the present route. I think the Polish government was politically naieve and arrogant enough to think that they could isolate themselves from the EU with no consequences (probably down to Hungary's dubious friendship which would block the unanimous vote needed to impose sanctions) but they probably didn't bank on the USA expressing 'concern' over the proposed reforms.

News / 2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere! [231]

Hello Dougpol! Welcome back, nice to see you, to see you nice :))

Well it's about time that Duda piped up. What a weakling he is, hiding in his holiday home while there's civil unrest on the streets, desperately waiting for his advisors to tell him what to do.


Yes indeed and he's very conscious that if he didn't use his Veto, overthrown is exactly what he would be at the next election. I told you, didn't I, spineless object though he is, he has a potentially long career ahead of him if he can wriggle out from under Kaczyński's yoke - serving his own interests just like the rest.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


You're right about Poland, not about Ireland. I don't need to check any rankings to know that but just to convince you, the Legatum Prosperity Index of 2016 placed Germany in 9th place in the world (not just Europe) in terms of its social capital and Ireland in 10th. Poland came in at 38th position. The difference between Germany and Ireland was literally a fraction of one point.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


You wouldn't be suggesting now that Poland should do things the German way, would you? :))

Food / Dry sausage Polish recipe [4]

Dried sausage in Polish is kiełbasa suszona so google for a 'przepis' (recipe) and you'll get quite a few, just copy and paste the text into Google Translate and you should be good to go! It's not perfect but you'll get the general idea. You'll need a digital weighing scales though as Poles weigh things properly rather than using measuring cups. If you see a recipe that also says kiełbasa wędzona it means smoked.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

Well now I'm afraid that after WWII and the Soviet Gulags etc that attitude is just not good enough. If we haven't learned by now the consequences of making hasty, ill-considered choices based on hysteria and the fascination of a 'strong' leader, well then we're doomed.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


Yes, but they weren't so happy with the aftermath were they? Yes such regimes are either a result of people being duped into thinking they're signing up for something great or being co-oerced into it. Now according to you, opinion polls are overwhelmingly in favour of the present government, so it would follow wouldn't it that whatever the government is proposing is indeed in accordance with the will of the people at this time.


Ok Gumi, let's imagine I'm a clever manipulative, devious son of a mother, ok? I want to convince a gullible electorate that my party listens to the people, so I develop a cunning plan to propose something very unpopular and then after a national outcry I do a u-turn and everybody feels reassured that I'm not a great dictator, but in fact a true man of the people, further increasing their trust and confidence in me.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

The state control business suits some people such as yourself, for a time as long as the state is introducing popular policies and 'reforms' but at a certain point, it starts introducing things that people don't like Gumi, and by that time, it's usually too late to do anything about it.

Remember that the present government as well as introducing its own reforms is busily undoing and dismantling previous ones, notably the education system. Now what does that indicate to you? Do bear in mind that we are talking here not just about returning to an old system from previous times, but in changing the curriculum to reflect the party ideology of PIS.............we even have museums being interfered with and the heads of them being sacked because their exhibitions don't present history from the ruling party's point of view and emphasise the aspects they think most important.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


I know about guest in the house, God in the house etc but that's not the same thing. In ancient Ireland it was actually the law, not a question of offering hospitality and this was in Pagan times before the concept of Christian charity. To fail to offer food and a bed to a stranger who came to the door was punishable by a fine. However, acknowledging that poverty might prevent some from being able to do so, 24 hour hostels, for want of a better word were established by the King of each district at the nearest major crossroads and each person and their attendants, seen upon the road was invited to enter if they wished. There would be up to a hundred beds available and maybe up to 200 livestock kept on the grounds as there were strict regulations as to the variety of meats etc to be offered. Entertainment was also expected to be provided. These bruideans as they were called existed up until the early 1600s when the Brehon Laws were finally displaced by English law and - can you see where this is heading?? Yes they are the forerunners of the Irish pub :)


Not in the least but quite frankly I am surprised if you can't see it for yourself. State control is being tightened in Poland and that's a fact.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


What I would suggest you do and I'm not being sarcastic, is read about authoritarianism and totalitarianism and then identify examples of those trends in Polish politics over the last two years. There are differences between the two but Poland is definitely inclining towards the former at present and that can lead on to the second.


Ah well, now, that's a tough one isn't it? The spirit of reaching out to work for the good of the wider community and not putting oneself first - where does it come from? Look at America, not a country I like much, but along with the greed and materialism is a level of personal generosity and community spirit that is almost unequalled anywhere in the developed world. Ditto Ireland remains one of the most charitable nations in the world. Ireland perhaps can be accounted for due to the requirement enshrined in the ancient Brehon Laws pre-dating Christianity, that anyone coming to your door must be fed and clothed with no questions asked. America, a very young nation, made up of diverse peoples and cultures, perhaps the legacy of initial shared hardships during the pioneering years and the sense of building the nation together accounts for it. How can Poland achieve that? Now perhaps that would be a worthy subject for the present government to concentrate on.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

Legislation plays a part, but carefully formulated. Education plays a greater part and it takes much, much longer to change the underlying way of thinking of a society.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


It's not just the courts, but the whole legal system and indeed the law itself that needs reform in Poland but this is not true reform and it is not the way to go about it. Overall, corruption in a post-communist society is going to be a fact of life and take some years to eradicate as it requires a change of attitude and mindset and you can't legislate for that. The problem I have Polly is that the so-called reforms being brought about in every area are not so much genuine reforms but in fact controls. Poland is simply moving towards being a totalitarian, facist police state, not a modern democracy. That's as bad as Soviet style communism, pretty much the same thing really.

Duda gives every impression of having been selected by Kaczyński for his role and appears to dance to his tune. He doesn't seem to have a will or mind of his own. He may yet develop one. As I say he has an eye to the future and his own career given that he is a good twenty years' his mentor's junior. But even now, with the country in crisis, instead of dealing with it, he trots off for a holiday to the Baltic.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]

Oh I do know what I'm talking about. Duda is a weak individual however many opinion polls he may top. Opinion polls, negative or positive maketh not the man.


I'm on the side of democracy.

Law / My bf's visa expired and we want to marry in the UK [9]


But you're not together now. You've lived apart for seven years. I don't see what difference Brexit makes either. It doesn't have any affect on your situation at all. You're an EU citizen and he's an illegal immigrant in any country where he doesn't have a valid work permit/visa. Brexit has nothing to do with it.

News / 60% of Poles say Szydło's government should resign [238]


He's getting on in years that's the first thing. The time available for him to achieve his goals is running out. He is getting more frustrated because things are not moving fast enough. This makes him even more irritable and volatile than previously and consequently harder for those around him to deal with. Secondly, Duda, his apprenctice, is starting to waver. He's a young man who despite his lack of credibility can still forge a long career in politics and he has an eye to the future. Kaczyński basically represents the past and is locked into it. His time is over. Within the next five years he'll be a spent force. As to the Htiler bit, I just meant his temper, he lacks the clout to create a world empire, though he could certainly have been a very effective dictator in his own country, had he lived in different times.