History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


I only look at it from the point of view that I'd rather have iron-fisted Russians running Chechyna than a bunch of dodgy Islamists who would quickly turn the state into...well, it isn't worth thinking about.


I thought that was the accepted version of things?


If "unusual" is "doing what's best for yourself and your family" - then...


That's why I say it wasn't a puppet state, but rather a tinpot regime.

With Jaruzelski, it's my personal view that he may not have trusted the Soviets at all - he was installed as their man (arguably, ever since 1945, he was Moscow's man - his rapid career rise despite his dubious background confirms this) as First Secretary - and from what we know, it may be that he felt that he had to introduce martial law. We simply don't know what was going on inside his head at that point. Civil war was becoming a possibility (remember - plenty of people owed their position to the PRL) - and given the Soviet history (including endless lies about intentions) - he may have felt that martial law was a way of keeping them out of Poland.

It's a great shame that the Moscow archives won't be opened - we could learn so much about what was going on then.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

Actually - in Poland - they should get exactly the same as the RCC got. Which was a considerable sum of money.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


It wasn't a puppet government. If it was, Gomułka would never have stood up to Moscow, Kania would never have refused to "sort things out" and so on. It was Communist and in the Warsaw Pact - but not a puppet government.


This was true up until 1956 - but after that, they were actively encouraging the Soviet presence in Poland.

There is a difference - the Communists put loyalists in charge, whereas with the Nazi model - they had Germans in place to make sure that their will was followed. This wasn't the case after 1956 in Poland - there are enough examples where Poland followed a different path to the Soviet Union. It was a tinpot regime, but not a puppet regime. Generally speaking - Poles dealt with Polish affairs within the constraints of the system.


Do you honestly prefer Islamist Chechen terrorists over Russian Christian rule? In Poland - you'll find people are actually more pro-Russia in this case.


For once, a fair assessment. Katyn would certainly have played on the minds of the Polish Army elite, not least Jaruzelski. But - to be fair - they weren't a problem. Poland was thoroughly defeated in 1939 - Katyn was simply a way of making sure that the elite of the Polish Army couldn't come back to haunt them.

But yes, if the PZPR elite had turned on Moscow (especially Gomułka or Jaruzelski) - then we could've seen a hell of a fight. I actually would (in 1980) rate Poland's chances of winning as being quite high - defensively, Poland would have had the Oder/Bug and the mountains on their side.


I don't criticise anyone for the decisions they made during that time. I don't think people can be blamed for wanting a better life for themselves and their families, and I have no issue with people doing what they could. It might not have been "honourable" - but it was certainly pragmatic.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Without a doubt. One thing to bear in mind that in Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 - there were a willing cadre of Party members who were happy to stab their comrades in the back to retain power. If all the comrades had turned round and said ***** you" (or a First Secretary who commanded immense personal loyalty, like Tito) - the Soviet Union would have had a hell of a problem on their hands.


Hard to see what else could have been done - Jaruzelski was in a tough spot, and couldn't have been sure of their intentions despite saying that they had no interest in helping - they did the same thing previously to Czechoslovakia.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Another masterstroke by the Communists - make people believe that Moscow was the one oppressing them, when it was the Government of the PRL all along. The truth was only revealed in December 1981 - and the way that the system fell apart quickly after that tells you a lot.

When you see how utterly brainwashed the people were by the Communists - it's frightening. To this day - many myths which exist as a result of brainwashing ("recovered territories", "western betrayal" and so on) are still passed down from generation to generation.


It doesn't change anything - Poles oppressed Poles after 1956, not the Soviets.

As much as you cling to hypothetical situations and so on - the basic facts are that Poles were doing the dirty work, not Soviets or anyone else.

Also worth pointing out that the Soviets had little appetite for doing much in 1981.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


The 2012 value. It's in line with precedent - the RCC has been robbing Poland blind of the 2012 values (and much more) - so why not everyone else?


What Jewish contingent?


Obtaining tens of millions for individual properties as well as the return of the properties is daylight robbery. You're not here - you're not the one who sees his tax money going to subsidise fat wealthy priests and their opulent lifestyles rather than poor children/homeless/etc.


When was the last time you paid tax in Poland? I pay every single month - and a good bit of it, too. You - on the other hand - only contribute to Canadian excise taxes.


Moscow and Berlin didn't pay for the RCC's thefts, so why should they pay now?

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]

You do realise that in Poland, the RCC has already thoroughly robbed Poland blind?


Alas, precedent is such that we've already paid out billions to the RCC.

Law / Is there a legal requirement for us to support aging parents in Poland? [26]


Would you honestly trust the Polish court to actually make the right decision?


Worth pointing out that it would also be enforceable through the SIS - Schengen Information System. So they'd be at risk of arrest when crossing any Schengen frontier, not just the Polish one.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Of course, much of the "opposition" had family members in prominent positions. And let's not forget that many people were members of the Party through their jobs - not many people refused good work on the grounds of mandatory Party membership.


Education is the big one for me - the difference between the II RP and the PRL when it came to providing education to all was massive.


Except they're not. Jaroslaw Kaczynski is a fine example - a man who undoubtably benefited from having a father in a good position in the PZPR, a product of a turncoat traitor - and yet the man still wins 30% of the vote.

So many Poles benefited from the system (even if they weren't Party members themselves) that such hatred is completely artificial.

(and much of the hatred stems from jealousy as opposed to being for ideological reasons)

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Three mentions of Russians in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with Russia. Obsessed.


Excellent - I'll pass you the details of the programme director in the USA. She'll tell you all you need to know - just tell her you'd like to be sent to Poznan.

I'm sure you'll be delighted to teach poor Polish nursery children.


You mean you push a dodgy right wing agenda down people's throats.

As I've said countless times - Poland doesn't need defended by Americans.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


It was certainly a member of Cominform.


It is not proper at all - in fact, it's historical revisionism to suggest so. Sovereignty tends to rest upon recognition - and the PRL was internationally recognised.


Again - Western propoganda. The Communist system generally did quite a good job of getting people into liveable accommodation - the huge building projects in the 50's all the way through to the 80's are testament to that. There was never much in the way of horrible communal apartments, unlike in the USSR for instance.


What has that got to do with anything?


You can't change the fact that it was a guy from a patriotic Polish Catholic family of noble origins who dealt a decisive blow to Poles at that time.


Open the history books and you'll see it in black and white - he was regarded as being one of the better Communists - and was seen as someone who was able to do what was best for Poland. Never wondered why martial law was such a shock? Nothing to do with the repression - but everything to do with who was repressing.


That's why lots of peasants fled just before/after the founding of the II RP, right? The II RP was a dreadful country in terms of social mobility - don't even try and pretend otherwise.


Ah, it's so easy to say that now. They were Polish and Poles, no matter how hard you try to claim otherwise. If they weren't - how could they be traitors?


Actually - they do call them Irish. They may add all sorts of words before/after the word, but they're still Irish. You can't try and change history by making them to be something that they aren't.


You do realise that there was considerable bad blood between Czechoslovakia and Poland for years?


They took part in the Soyuz 80 moves, so to suggest that the Soviet Union gave a damn about Polish sensitivities in this area is amusing.

No matter what you say - no matter how much you claim to be some proud patriotic family - the fact remains that Poles enslaved Poles.


I suggest you look at Polish-Czechoslovak relations. They were quite poor - 1920, 1938, 1968 and even 1980 all point at why. It had nothing to do with "good graces" and everything to do with the fact that the Poles quite wanted to give them another bloody nose. Don't forget that Poland in 1968 would still have quite liked to take some territory back.


They wouldn't have needed convincing - there was enough bad blood there.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


The clue is in the name "Polish". And yes, every single one of them.


Unbelievably racist accusation, that. It's the same old tired nonsense that was trotted out in the 1930's and late 1960's - we've heard it all before, and funnily enough, it tends to be spouted by those who have some sort of racial agenda.

Then again MediaWatch, if you care about so much about Poland, why not hop on a plane and make a difference? I need some American volunteers in Summer - between July 2nd to July 27th. What about it? I'll even sort you out with accommodation and meals.

Oh, I forget...you're an internet "defender".

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Yes - for instance, the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 was only made by the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Poland and Hungary. Romania notably kept out of it, as did East Germany.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Tito swiftly told Stalin where to go though. If you consider that Stalinism was the worst - and they couldn't finish off Tito - it shows how Moscow wasn't anywhere near as dominant as the Western media pretended. As for Albania - it certainly was important in its own way.


The point is that the Soviet Union simply didn't have as much of an iron grip over Poland as Americans seem to think. It's even known nowadays that the Soviet Union was anticipating the loss of Poland in the early 80's.


Or perhaps it confirms that they were simply happy with their lot. Don't forget that Communism did bring in some positive changes too - we saw the introduction of universal free education for the first time in a Polish state, for instance. It's easy for us from the West to not understand - but Poland changed dramatically - and many former peasants were very happy with the idea of guaranteed work, guaranteed flat and so on.


Actually - it's more that they encountered massive opposition to the plans. Again - another example where Poland didn't toe the line.


Doesn't change the fact that it was a Polish general who ordered the crackdown on Poles. I don't remember the exact number, but the army was a generally trusted institution prior to December 1981 - Jaruzelski himself was actually quite popular - and it was believed that the army would never be used against Poles themselves.


The peasants moved into the cities. The elite was destroyed in WW2 - and former peasants suddenly found themselves thrust into power.


The social barriers in the II RP were tremendous - again - one thing that Communism offered was a way for people from poor backgrounds to become elite in the country. Same in most Communist countries, in fact.


Unfortunately, they were as Polish as they came. The elite were often made up of people who came from generations of villagers - people who were as Polish as they come. And don't forget the ultimate example - Jaruzelski, born into a family of Polish Catholic patriots. Heck - what about Jaroslaw Kaczynski's father - former AK turned PZPR.

People try and deny it nowadays, but there's absolutely no escaping the fact that Communism couldn't have survived for so long without the collaboration of a vast amount of Poles. I'm not passing judgement - but it couldn't have happened without them.

Law / Is there a legal requirement for us to support aging parents in Poland? [26]


Interesting question - if the parents have assets (ie, a nice big flat in a city centre location, like many) - can they be made to sell the flat to support themselves?

Law / Is there a legal requirement for us to support aging parents in Poland? [26]

It's been mentioned on here elsewhere - there is a provision within Polish law where the children can be held responsible for looking after the parents

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimenty

Law / Is there a legal requirement for us to support aging parents in Poland? [26]


Yes - there is an obligation to do so.

History / Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations? [750]


Polish.

And they're certainly more Polish than you'll ever be.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Actually, we go by history. And history shows that the PRL was internationally recognised and a fully accepted member of the United Nations. It most certainly was not "occupied".


Indeed. Do we need to mention that martial law was an operation carried out by the Polish Army against Poles?


Indeed, it was the recognised Polish state. The "Government-in-exile" enjoyed little to no international recognition.


Mods?


That's not actually true. If you look at the Soviet Bloc - we have the first example of Tito more or less telling Moscow to get ******, the second example of Albania following China and not Moscow, and the third example of Romania perusing somewhat of an independent line (and winning favour with the West). All of these somewhat confirm that Moscow's rule wasn't anywhere near as total as is assumed. The different interpretations of socialism in each country also shows this - Poland never went in for collective farming in a big way, for instance.


Killing and harming didn't happen very much after Stalinism. Marital law was actually exceptional for how restrained it really was - to this day, I can't figure out why the leading figures behind Solidarity weren't murdered.


There were plenty of people who had no interest in this - because they were better off under the PRL than before. Many peasants became people of power in the PRL - do you think they would have had power under the elitist II RP?


Did you forget who was part of WRON already? Poland after Poznan 56 was more than capable of dealing with problems herself.


If anything, Poles were occupying Poland after Stalinism came to an end.

News / Poland now soft-pedalling ACTA signing [107]

What's comical is that much of the anti-ACTA protests (especially in Poznan) were led by PiS supporters.

Nice of you to admit that they are all "cheapies who have no regard" - we all knew that already.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Or - as was often the case, especially in the 60's/70's - it was whoever bribed the Government with the most cash. It went to ridiculous levels when you had the USA and the Soviet Union both showering small insignificant countries with cash, just to get them to go along with their "system" and not the other.

When MediaWatch rants about no-one recognising the PRL, he forgets that there were plenty of Soviet-aligned countries who weren't controlled by anyone - especially the Arab and African countries.

Life / Question about hot water in Poland and the use of water heaters? [52]


I'm not sure if any new ones are actually being built these days, except where an existing system might need more capacity.

I'd love to know for certain, though.

Off-Topic / Book: Gogol's Taras Bulba [37]


Wrong. It's "Ukraine", not "The Ukraine". "The Ukraine" is an offensive, outdated term with colonial implications.

Law / Driving in Poland on a foreign license [45]

Not true. An EU licence is valid until expiry in any other EU state.


Wrong. FR, DE and CH already exchange driver information.


Wrong. As I said above - FR/DE/CH already deal with driving offences together.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


I refer you to Tito's Yugoslavia, Hoxha's Albania and Ceausescu's Romania. All of them frequently did what they wanted to do and didn't toe the party line. Both Yugoslavia and Albania very much did their own thing - and Romania was also rather independently minded at times.


You do realise that the French and British didn't particularly want German unification? If you knew your history (which you don't) - you'd know that the price of German unification was the Euro.


They don't come to this website because the majority of Poles don't see "the enemy within", they don't subscribe to ridiculous Smolensk theories and certainly have nothing to do with racist Polish-Americans who insist that they know better than Polish people.


Backtracking. There was the Polish Government in Exile in London that also claimed to represent Poles - so there was an option there. East Germany also had West Germany claiming to be the only lawful successor of the Third Reich - so there was no need to recognise the DDR.


There are certainly plenty of examples where Moscow wasn't controlling things. Then again, you wouldn't see this - because you're blinded with tinfoil-hat-rage.

Incidentally, there were plenty of countries supporting the Soviet Bloc - I suggest you start with a course on voting patterns in the UN.

History / Do any Poles miss the Communist era? [35]


What's curious is that Czechoslovakia was far richer than Poland, yet nowadays, Slovakia is on a par with Poland and the Czech Republic (in the cities) is about the same as Poland. Perhaps it shows that Czech-style lustracja didn't work too well?

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


And when it comes down to it - international recognition is what matters.


What has Reagan's speech got to do with recognition? If you actually knew how international relations worked, you'd know that in Europe, at least two major leaders were very much in favour of two Germanies and they had no issue with recognising both. Even West Germany recognised East Germany in the 1970's.


Is that your standard insult when the facts disagree with you?

Law / Advantages of getting Polish citizenship [24]


No. Your grandparents would never have had Polish citizenship (as you should be aware, Poland didn't exist when they left) and so it would have never passed to your mother - and so no citizenship for you.

Off-Topic / Book: Gogol's Taras Bulba [37]


I've never heard "Polonophobia" being called a mental illness before. Certainly - the seeing of polonophobia everywhere is a mental illness and easily treated with a visit to Poland.

Law / Can non polish EU citizens claim unemployment assistance in Poland? [7]

In law, yes - after 3 months, you should either be able to support yourself or get out. If you remember the recent deportations from France of the Roma - it was under this law.

However - if you've got the EU residence certificate, then that's a whole new question - I'm pretty certain they can't then deport you under this law (as you'll have a valid zameldowanie). Interesting legal minefield, though.


Yes - provided they have the EU residence certificate and they also comply with the relevant laws on being eligible for unemployment cash.

I'm sure it burns Polish-Americans inside that we superior Brits can claim cash from Poland and they can't.