UK, Ireland / Are you able to hear the different English accents? [97]


Well I'm not so sure. Certainly with reference to England, when the printing press was developed a conscious decision had to be made about which dialect to use for the printed word and the decision was the dialect of the south as opposed to the north of England and that's the beginning of the standardisation of English. However, in the English speaking world there is absolutely no doubt that some usages have disappeared permanently and others have come in from diverse places. I would say that American English usages have made much more of an impact on Britain though than British English in America, probably because Brits watch a great deal of imported American programs (and of course films) whilst Americans watch far fewer British imports.


An interesting point. I thought that was at least partly due to the migration of millions of Poles from the eastern side of the country to the western side. And if you look at the places where the distinctive dialects have been retained such as the Góralski once again it's because of relative isolation, though I would agree that there is probably also an element of resistance to comply with conforming to a 'centralized' language.

UK, Ireland / Are you able to hear the different English accents? [97]


Firstly accent and dialect are two different things. One can speak with a thick Liverpool or Birmingham accent but with the vocabulary of Standard English. Dialect refers to the lexicon and grammar which can vary widely from the standard and from other dialects. It would be wrong to suggest that dialect survivesonly in remote places but it applies to the purest form of dialects which are largely unintelligble to outsiders. Remember that for centuries many people lived and died in their own county, perhaps rarely visiting a town and had no need to communicate in anything other than their own local dialect. Here's an example of an extreme dialect of English spoken only in the Wexford area of Ireland, bear in mind when you listen that this is English, not Irish. It was spoken up until the middle of the nineteenth century or thereabouts:

youtube.com/watch?v=RFl9ptuxd8s

Now I really don't think you can say that the dialect of any port town compares in distinctiveness or incomprehensibilty to it.

The change in accent and disappearance of dialect is undoubtedly associcated with movement of people and from the latter half of the twentieth century television has made a huge impact because people are being exposed from birth to various language models which have had a huge influence on their speech. Your example of students changing their accent stems from the movement of people supports that but is more of 'sociolect', people adopting a general style of speech or use of language that unites them.


Yes but Kate is common dear, common :)) Lady Di was an aristo. Kate has the demeanour of a parlour maid who ransacked m' Lady's wardrobe and dressed up for the afternoon. Even her name, she sounds like a King's mistress rather than a princess. But just wait until Harry ties the knot with Megan Merkle or whatever her name is, then you'll really have something to complain about!

UK, Ireland / Are you able to hear the different English accents? [97]

You simply can't beat the English for those, shall we say, terms of endearment. Duck, chuck, cocker, hinney etc. I believe they also have something called a 'singing hinney' in Newcastle, a kind of toasted teacake/crumpet thing with butter.

UK, Ireland / Are you able to hear the different English accents? [97]


Royston Vasey?? :D

I must say I'm intrigued. Generally dialects survive in areas which have had little contact with outsiders so I'm guessing your home town is not close to the coast, nor to a large city so I think it's essentially rural but it's not necessarily a small place. Ok, I'm going to take a stab at it, you're a forester or something of that kind anyway aren't you, and I think that stems from growing up in a forested place, so forests, distinctive and rare dialect - I'm guessing the Forest of Dean.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]


But the whole point is that he doesn't have to. He would be choosing to. He doesn't have to relocate to a country that he suspects might be corrupt.


That's not a sound basis on which to up sticks and move to another country.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]

I wasn't having a go at him just for the sake of being difficult. I just thought it was a daft thing to say, that he wouldn't have a problem greasing palms to get things done, if that were the custom in Poland. What normal person actually makes a deliberate decision to move to a country which might be that corrupt because he thinks it would be 'better' to live in than his own homeland which is presumably free from such practices. It's also annoying because it smacks of that kind of patronizing ignorance which supposes that such things would be the norm in Poland. The bottom line is that he's what he's really saying is that he would accept it as a reasonable price to pay for living in a country that's still predominantly white and Christian but that's a poor basis on which to form a plan to move to another country especially as there's no guarantee that Poland will remain untouched by immigration. It may do so under the present government but they won't remain in power forever.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]


Oh I know how bad Hungary is but it is shocking that an EU country can get away with that kind of thing. Unfortunately that's the result of the EU being naive enough to think that post-Communist countries could change within a couple of decades, to a way of thinking which has taken about 150 years to evolve in Western Europe. The EU believed that the initial eagerness in the former Eastern Bloc to embrace democracy and take their place in a 'free' Europe would be enough to sustain reforms but it isn't and the EU didn't have the foresight to put safeguards in place which could be easily activated at the first signs of trouble. Now they're paying the price with the current mess which they are still fruitlessly trying to resolve with 'dialogue'.

There are actually loads of articles about Hungary and it's often mentioned in the same breath as Poland. There are serious concerns out there about Hungary and Poland leading the way to a mass 'rebellion' by other newer EU members and causing permanent damage to the union. You often refer to countries being too small to matter Ziem but it's not their size that counts. It's their influence. A small country can be suprisingly powerful.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]

Ok now I took a quick look at the Global Corruption index for Europe which has been compiled by Transparencey International since 2003. It's based on interviews with ordinary people about their perceptions/experiences of dealing with their governments. For the bribery section last year, the findings were that for example 0% of UK citizens reported paying a bribe to a public servant, Sweden 1%, in Poland it was 7%, Germany 3%, Czech Republic 9%, Hungary an impressive 22% (shocking really for an EU country), Romania 29%. It gets worse and worse as you go futher east and out of the EU with Moldova managing 42% so pretty much what one would expect really.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]

In fairness Kaprys it wasn't Lyzko who started this line of thinking. It was the OP with this gem:


So if you're going to have a go at anyone, start with him. Of course Lyzko is not 'ok' with bribery but the OP very much is, to the extent that he would happily collude with it if it's to his advantage to do so. Now that is something that you as a Pole should be taking serious issue with as the guy is suggesting he would do this in your country and seems to think that it's common practice in Poland in the same way as it is in Banana Republics.

@Lyzko, I would say that bribing minor civil servants to process paperwork is uncommon in Poland. Bribery at a higher level, for example property developers handing over brown envelopes to get planning permission, that sort of thing very much goes on everywhere to some degree. But I wouldn't think Poland is much worse than most civilised nations in that respect.

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]


That's a bit presumptuous. Czech Republic doesn't. Don't be too sure about the others either when it comes to the crunch. The easiest way to invoke Article 7 is to target both Poland and Hungary at the same time in order to block Hungary's veto but the Hungarians are a devious bunch and they're a lot cleverer than the Polish government so they manage to stay just within the bounds of what's acceptable. Orban cosies up to the EU quite a bit and compromises to some extent. Bad though Hungary is, they just don't quite merit Article 7. Poland on the other hand is like a child with behavioural problems who's completely out of control, running wild around the classroom, refusing to comply with any classroom rules, shouting 'whatever - I'll do what I want, you can't expel me, so there'.


There was justification for that because of the unique political situation that pertains on the island of Ireland. Just as the Common Travel Area will be retained after Brexit, Ireland and the UK MUST retain control over some aspects of their affairs. Also Ireland is a neutral country and part of the opt out in Lisbon is to ensure that we remain so. That was one of the reasons that the first referendum failed. Poland didn't have any special reason to require opt out clauses any more than any other country who wanted to pick and choose bits they agreed with.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]


It perpetuates it. Anyway it's all academic. As Roger says that kind of thing is no longer the norm in Poland.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]


Well you SHOULD have. Poland is supposed to be a modern democracy. It's a member of the European Union. You're not doing Polish people any favours by taking an attitude that encourages the kind of corruption one sees in Banana Republics. The people of Poland deserve better than that.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Well my husband is talking about 'the old days' prior to a free press so I'm not sure that the media as such would have any role to play. Of course stories can be exaggerated and rumours build up by word of mouth Chinese Whispers style but that doesn't mean they have no foundation.

Anyway one thing I can tell you for sure, is that back in 2001 there was a report published on domestic violence in Poland and it contained an account by a doctor in a hospital in Łódź who treated a woman who had been so badly kicked and punched in her stomach and abdomen by her own husband that they had to remove her ueterus.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Well that's what I was saying earlier. A life sentence in a Polish jail would be a nice punishment for them. However it must be acknowledged Gregy that there are plenty of brutal rapes in Poland too. Years ago my husband told me that rapes in Poland were often extremely violent, he said that the attackers frequently cut the girls with knives and burnt them with cigarettes.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

By a strange conicidence Ziobro,the Polish Minister for Justice has announced only today that penalties for sex offences will be tightened up in Poland. He actually admitted that Poland itself has some of the lightest punishments for sex offences in the EU. Italy apparently has harsher penalties which is why Poland won't pursue extradition of the rapists in the Rimini case.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

No probs, Gregy old fruit :)) However, as to justice I think you'll find many sad tales further east as well,assuming we talk about countries east of Germany but still in Europe. The injustices are of a different nature perhaps but they exist.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Obviously. I mean how could any sane or decent human being blame that poor girl for what happened to her? It just goes to show you the low opinion Gregy has of his fellow posters. Really Gregy how could you think that any of us would say that it was the Polish couple's fault, what happened to them.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Good grief! I don't mean the Polish girl!! She was attacked. I'm talking about the daft eighteen year old in the UK who went back to a guy's flat in the small hours.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]


There's more to that case than meets the eye. Why was twenty minutes of his evidence heard in private?? Whitehall is behind that I'll be bound. I'm not that clueless. To be honest I have limited sympathy for girls who get themselves into those situations through their own stupidity. I was once a teenage girl and when I was sixteen, let alone eighteen I had enough common sense to look after myself.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]


No that won't happen. This is a very high profile case and all eyes will be upon them. The best punishment for them would be life imprisonment in a Polish jail but sadly they not only won't get that, they won't get a life sentence even in Italy. I wonder what the maximum penalty is for rape, assault and robbery in Italy. Let's hope it's in double digits anyway.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Yes, basically it seems they reported third hand hearsay and then added in their own embellishments - utterly disgusting and utterly disrespectful to the victims. Typical tabloid journalism. I wonder if they can be prosecuted by the Italian authorities for it? I doubt that the couple themselves will be able to cope with the stress of a law suit in the near future.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]


Source?

Yes, the problem I have is that it sounds very coherent and although the newspaper might 'tidy up' what she said, it seems a bit glib for someobdy in the aftermath of a really brutal assault.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Having looked at the link provided by Gregy to the Polish news site, the remarks attributed to the victim are said to have been made by her to the Italian La Republicca. I don't think La Republicca would print such a detailed statement if it were complete fabrication. There may be at least an element of truth in it, in as much as it's probably certainly true that they want to see the guys arrested, charged and convicted but beyond that they just want to try to get on with their lives. I don't know if they padded it a bit and it seems like a very lengthy statement for somebody in shock but who knows.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Yes that would be grounds for a law suit surely if the media attributed comments to her that she didn't make. I'm sure the poor girl is very far from being in a state to think about law suits though.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Well if she's managed to attempt suicide twice since returning to Poland, then clearly she's been disgracefully failed by the Polish authorities. The girl and her partner should be receiving proper care and counselling in a residential setting at the expense of the authorities. I can understand that she probably wanted to be with her family but she needs to be supported appropriately. She should be kept under twenty four hour care with her family being facilitated in being on call for her when she needs them, for at least a few weeks after her return to Poland.

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

Where did you read this? And where is the victim? Is she not in hospital or a clinic under proper medical supervision??

News / Poland's political crisis deepens [228]

Started a thread yesterday on the rule of law situation but it seems to have been deleted by the Mods. Apparently it's not considered important enough to merit its own thread, nor does it appear to have been merged. However it's considered important enough to the EU Commission to be discussed by members again on 25 September. Member states were consulted yesterday about adding Poland to the agenda and so it came to pass.

Nothing very concrete is likely to emerge from it however. But an interesting possibility is the use of Article 258 as a kind of halfway house between doing nothing and Article 7.

"If the Commission considers that a Member State has failed to fulfil an obligation under the
Treaties, it shall deliver a reasoned opinion on the matter after giving the State concerned the
opportunity to submit its observations.

If the State concerned does not comply with the opinion within the period laid down by the
Commission, the latter may bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union."

What the outcome of such a case might be in terms of stopping the rot is debatable. I mean what will the court actually DO as a result of officially finding that Poland is in breach of its obligations. Will it finally attempt to trigger Article 7? I suspect that the EU is stalling until the general election in Hungary which is only a few months away, maybe hoping that Orban will be unseated and that the Hungarian veto will be overridden. In the meantime they'll beaver away at working on the other members who are undecided at present. Nine member states already expressed official concerns in May this year at a United Nations meeting and urged Poland to desist from its present path. So that's nine who would probably be in favour of Article 7. Interestingly that nine included Czech Republic.

If Hungary persists with the veto then the only other option is to also charge Hungary with the same breaches, thus effectively excluding them from the voting process on Poland.

The problem in my view is that all of this will take forever and in the meantime PIS are going on their merry way doing a great deal of damage. If I were a Polish national and a supporter of EU membership I would be inclined to think, 'what's the point of being in a union that claims to uphold democracy but can't do anything to stop my country from dismantling it'.

Life / What has Poland accomplished in the science and technology field? [22]


Is there?? And for how long? Democracy is far from firmly established in Poland.


Funding of R&D will not improve under the present government. A couple of months ago Kaczyński remarked that the universities require 'deep change' but you can be sure those changes won't include increased spending on promotion of science and technology, especially when those subjects are being sidelined in primary and secondary schools under the new curriculum.

Life / What has Poland accomplished in the science and technology field? [22]


Well now Sheridan (did you watch that clip I linked to of The Surgeons from Harry and Paul) we can't know for sure but I would dispute that old chap. The fork was already in use in Italy in Catherine De Medici's time and although she was supposedly somewhat impoverished she was still a noblewoman and I'm betting she had a fork. In those days it was very common for the upper classes to carry their own eating utensils with them when travelling even on a few days journey in their own homeland so I would imagine she brought the whole kit and caboodle when she embarked for France. Perhaps we should engage a medium, have a seance and try to contact her so we can get the definitive answer :D

Life / What has Poland accomplished in the science and technology field? [22]

I doubt it. The fork is more likely to have arrived in France via its neighbour Italy when Catherine De Medici married Henry II because the Italians were definitely using forks before the French. It was quite common for new customs to be introduced via royal marriages just as Catherine of Braganza introduced tea to the Brits when she married Charles II. The court would adopt the latest fashion of the monarchs and it gradually filtered downwards.