Real Estate / Has the Poland real estate bubble popped? [12]

Its interesting that this thread was posted a year ago and there was much speculation by forum members as to whether prices would collapse as according to Polsky (and all his alias's) or perhaps decline slowly. Well, there has not been a 50% drop as Polsky predicted and if the following artical is to be believed, the market has bottomed out.

Apartments prices in Poland gaining ground

9th February 2010

Polish developers are giving fewer and smaller discounts to clients after observing an increase in interest in real estate.

According to research conducted by real estate consultants Reas, by the end of 2009 the average price of real estate per square meter in Warsaw amounted to zł.7,800 – a rise of seven percent over the Q3 average. Poznań and the Tri-city area saw rises of six and three percent respectively.

The days when property buyers got double-digit percentage discounts at real-estate brokers are behind us, Reas says. According to Katarzyna Kuniewicz, an analyst with Reas, brokers now give discounts of two to four percent. (RG)

Source: Rzeczpospolita

From Warsaw Business Journal

Mark, keep buying tickets for the lotto, you may be able to afford tthat flat someday.

Life / If I move to a big city in Poland will I come across a lot of English speakers? [32]

I have been here for nearly 7 years. I can understand your reasons. If you need any questions answered, PM me.

Law / Bureaucracy in Poland [53]

Perhaps he was trying to persuade them that he wanted to buy a new flat for 200 PLN m2?

Real Estate / Poland Commercial Real Estate News. Which companies are active now? [8]

Craig Smith

Log on to the Warsaw Business Journal and look in the office section from the real estate drop down menu. It should tell you what you need to know.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]


Yes, and its a lot more expensive here than in the UK.
eg:Small block of flats in the UK, architect, planning permission, buidling inspector. £4-5000.00.
This includes 5 visits from Local council building inspector.

Poland, architect, planning permission £10-20,000 depending on greed. You then have to employ your own building inspector and pay him around around £100.00. a month for 1 or 2 half hour visits and this is for the duration of the contract. On completion, you pay £200.00. each for the electrics and water connection to be tested and certified and "stamped"(this is not carried out by the companies that install same)

The city council then have to "sign off" the building (legalize it) and if there is any discrepancy on any measurements you are fined £600.00. On my parking spaces (for 26 cars I was undersized by 60cm, apparently, nobody in Poland drives a Maluch, they all drive SUV's or Rolls Royces) so was fined. They always find something wrong so there is always a fine. (Nobody told me this in the beginning but apparently its the norm in Poland)

On 13 apartments, the man that issues the "energy certificate" ( or HIPS as its known in the UK) wanted £200.00. per apartment but managed to talk him down to £900.00. as a job lot.

I could write a book or make a film about getting the electricity, water and gas companies to actually connect the building up to the mains services. You have to get the written permission of all the neighbours and landowners over/under wherever the cables/pipes pass and God help you if they live abroad or in the North of poland. This does not include the 50 visits to each office to sign different forms and sometimes travel to 3 different offices to get them"stamped".

I would have to say that time and moneywise, its at least 400% more expensive to do the paperwork for a project of identical size in the UK. This does not take into consideration, the stress of having to deal with the dumb bast***ds.

The moment you buy the land to build on, you pay a business tax, based on the size of the land until you have sold all the properties (this does not apply in the UK)

I have more paperwork for one project than I had for 10 years continuous work in the UK.

So when you read what Mark Biernat (Polsky, etc, etc, etc or whatever name he decides to use on the day) posts on these property threads, you know he is talking out of his ass.


I would want that just for the paperwork.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

Mark, I have never denied I am a retired builder, do you have any skills at all?

I have experience of building in Poland, do you? You stated under an alias that you work in an accountants office and yet you seem to know nothing about business practice?

Do you understand English?.....I stated a fact, Poland has to adopt the euro as its currency. I have no idea as to exactly when but Tusk has pencilled in 2015. I only stated that wages will have to increase as will all commodities.

Being called a liar is a bit rich coming from someone who spams this forum under so many alias's and has never backed up with facts, any statement he has made, except for a few articals that are dated prior to 2008 are totallaly irrelevant to the situation that exists in Krakow today.

Mark, you live in a fantasy world and should seriously consider seeking treatment.

Life / Tattoos and Popular culture in Poland [51]

I had a tattoo done on each forearm when I was 15 and then never had another one until some 25 years later. I had to wait for a couple of hours while my car was having an alarm fitted, took a walk and found myself outside of a tattoo parlour, got the urge and had another 3 on my legs and back.

I still cannot think of the reason why I wanted more. strange.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

As a non-emotional builder, I can give you a some good reasons.

a) Even with 2,000.000 Poles working abroad, there is a need for some 3,000.000 new dwellings including those needed to replace exisiting defective housing stock.(Stats according to GUS 2004)

b) Building costs for new apartments is around 2,000 to 3,000 PLN m2 (average quality to developers standard, I am not talking high end developments) excluding the cost of the land.

(not the 600 PLN m2 that the idiot Mark Biernat would have you believe)
c) Average time from initial planning for large blocks or estate is 3-4 years by the time all permissions are granted.
d) Wages/materials/fuel used in constructioin have been rising for the past 4 years and are not going down.
e) Green taxes being brought in by the EU will increase the cost of everything from materials to the new certificates for "energy efficiency" that are required to be provided by the developers to the buyers (all these costs mount up substancially and have to be included as overall costs.

f) complying with Health & Safety legisilation with soon become compulsary in Poland (more jobs for the EU boys) which will again add to the cost of a project. (In the UK it added 8% to my project costs. ( an example would be having to supply toilets, showers and a canteen for the men on site, even small sites. Disposing of waste by approved contractors to landfill sites where they charge a fortune because of the EU regulations)

g) Financing a new project is going to cost more from the banks (if you can get them to lend to you) because of the ass-**le bankers.

h) As a pre-condition to joining the EU, Poland has to adopt the euro which means that wages will have to go up or is the suggestion that all the countries to the West of Poland will come here to do their shopping?. When Spain and Germany adopted the euro, prices for food etc, rose by around 15% and the people there are still complaining now.

So you see, 5-6000 PLN m2 does not seem all that expensive if you know what you are talking about and you want something "new". Developers have to make a profit to make it worthwhile to build at all. Try and remember a single building project that has come in under budget?

The reason that Polish people are asking 4000 PLN m2 for total crap is that they know they can get it as there is not enough "affordable new" on the market.

Poles would rather have a new car than a nice apartment, thats their choice, but you will see the price of cars shoot up in the next couple of years, if you can afford the petrol/diesel to drive them.

Petrol has risen by 50% in the past 4 years, has that stopped people from driving?
Perhaps people will go back to using horse and carts?

I have spent most of my whole working life in construction so I hope this is the non-emotional response you wanted.

I welcome constructive criticism about the property market here in Poland but when I want an opinion on my health, I do not ask a bus driver.

Do not ask me how the Polish people will be able to afford housing, I have no idea, any more than I have any idea why nearly eveything here is dealt with in cash purchases.

UK, Ireland / UK Sky TV in Poland [39]

I stumbled across something called "tenchis tv" (google it). It seems to originate from Spanish source but they have loads of TV stations and films in English but with Spanish sub-titles.

UK, Ireland / UK Sky TV in Poland [39]

rjsky

Yes, you can do it this way but you cannot connect your phone line to the box as they will know you are out of the country and the other problem will be if they change the viewing card for your box, they will send it to your last address.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]

delphiandomine

Poland has the highest prison population in the EU. People are actually waiting at home to serve their time as places become available.

Do you remember the special holding prison they built for "asylum seekers" in the UK. It cost £40,000.000 to build, it was open for a few months and was "holding" only 16 prisoners when they rioted and burnt it down.

Never mind, the tax payer can afford to build more, its only money.

The UK governement can give billions away in foriegn aid to despots who watch their own people starve and yet we have no money in the UK to build additional prisons to keep the scum off of the streets. I suppose its all about priorities.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]


I take justice very seriously. When the UK courts send a man to prison for 3 years for beating up the burgular who threatened his family with a knife and the burgular with 50 previous offences walks free, it just shows you have low the British system has sunk. I wish the sentences handed out there were on a comparison with the ones handed out in Poland, there might be a lot less crime.

Love / Opinion from Polish men on this please (Polish men so 'spiritually' romantic?) [43]


It had better be!!!!....it costs enough!!!!!

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]


My God the polish are lenient, they would have got at least 80 hours community service or a 6 month suspended sentence in the UK!!!

Life / Ripped Off in Poland? - Expose here: [185]


Unfortunately, the way the law works in Poland, I would be very wary of leaving myself open to being sued for libel, the Polish courts tend to side with their own first and justice comes a long way second.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]


The only broadcast I have seen recently, was your General Mc Crystal stating that "the war may be winnable", if they could find and kill Bin Laden.

I suggest you listen to your own propoganda and get ready to waste another $50 billion next year.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]

Stolen on Friday and recovered on Monday. I am impressed.

The Americans still cannot find Bin Laden after 8 years and the UK police would have issued you with a crime number to claim on the insurance. The Polish police cannot be that bad then.

Life / Ripped Off in Poland? - Expose here: [185]


I never said that the laws were ridiculous. When I lived in the UK, I had to obey and implement many stupid rules and regulations in my business or face large fines for disobeying them. The problem I have illustrated in my post, has become a matter of principle for me. If Poland wants to be an equal partner in the EU then the rules have to apply to all.

I was merely pointing out, that the process of trying to get legal redress in Poland is almost impossible for a foriegner.


I did not state that every single rule had been adopted or accepted, but, the ones that have are rigorously enforced, to such an extent that the newspapers/media, regularly make fun of the fines imposed for breaches of the same.Whereas, in Poland, they either do not know the regulations or they totally ignore them.

Is that clear enough for you, sh1t for brains?

Life / Ripped Off in Poland? - Expose here: [185]

stevepl

"Actualy your consumer rights in Poland are almost identical to those in the UK".

"How far you would have to go to enforce it I don't know. But I think if you threatened legal action (seeing as that if the supplier lost he would also have to pay the costs) should usually get the result".

"(But you never know perhaps I should try a test case)."

I booked a flight through a Polish travel agent in Jan, 2005.The departure from Warsaw was on the 15th May, 2005. The Polish holiday company cancelled the flight and only wanted to refund 75% of the cost of the tickets. I explained to them that they not only had to give me a refund, they also had to compensate me with 400 euros for each ticket. I refered them to EU regulation 261/004 and was told that they were not obliged to obey EU regulations.

I have spent thousands of PLN going to the highest courts in Poznan (this court knew I did not speak Polish and promised a translator, when I arrived for the case, they told me they had forgotten to organise one) and Warsaw and they will still not accept the EU regulations that they signed up to.

This whole proceedure has so far taken nearly 5 years and my last option is to sue the Polish government through the European Commission. The Polish judicial courts demand that you reply to the in 7 days, they then take 6-8 months to write back to you. Any judgements they give are not sent to you, you have to send 30PLN to have them forewarded, when/or if you know these judgements have been given.

So, the idea of taking a Polish shop, a plumber, a builder or a car salesman to court would seem to be a waste of time. It would be quicker to get the US army to intervene.

EU regulations and laws only work if the countries that sign up to them, actually enforce them.
In my experience, the uK is the only country, stupid enough to enforce all the EU rules and make everyones life a misery.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

milky

another new alias....lol

Law / Non-EU country citizen on tourist visa - could anyone help me with Karta Pobytu? [63]

My 5 year residence card runs out in mid-December, so, after looking up the Polish government website I find that:-

After 5 years of continuous stay within the territory of the Republic of Poland the EU citizen acquires the right to stay permanently.

Now, does this mean that I will be sent a permanent residence card automatically or do I have to apply for one? As it does not say, I decide to play safe and telephone the number in Warsaw that is given on the website.

Todays conversation with the office in Warsaw:-

me: Hello is that the department for foriegners.

office: yes, how can I help you

me: I have lived here in Poland now for over 6 years and my 5 year residence permit is due to expire in December. I read on the government website that I qualify for permanent residence after 5 years, what do I need to do to get the permanent card.

office: You have the wrong number, the number is the same but the last 3 digits are ***

me: Thank you. (I dial the number given)

office:yes, how can I help you

me: I have lived here in Poland now for over 6 years and my 5 year residence permit is due to expire in December. I read on the government website that I qualify for permanent residence after 5 years, what do I need to do to get the permanent card.

office: You have the wrong number, the number is the same but the last 3 digits are ***

me: Thank you. (I dial the new number given)

me: Hello is that the department for foriegners.

office:yes, how can I help you

me: I have lived here in Poland now for over 6 years and my 5 year residence permit is due to expire in December. I read on the government website that I qualify for permanent residence after 5 years, what do I need to do to get the permanent card.

office: You need to apply.

me: What forms do I need and where do I need to send these forms? Do I use the same form as the one for the 5 year residence permit?

office: Yes, and you need a photocopy of your passport, copy of meldunuk and 5 passport sized photo's.

me: So, I need to send them the same documents that I sent them 5 years ago?

office:Yes

me: And to what address do I send these documents?

office: Where do you live?

me: I live in Malopolska

office: In that case you will need to send your documents to Krakow.

me: Do I send them to the same office as for the 5 year permit?, in Ul.Sebastiana?

office: I don't know. you will have to look it up on the internet.

me: I have already looked on the internet and the only address given, is in Warsaw, that is why I am phoning you.

office: I will try and find out for you.

4 pieces of classical music later..........I can hear frantic voices in the background..........

office: You need to send it to Ul.Przy-Rondza 6, 33-550.

me: To what department?

office: I don't know. I will try and find out for you.

4 pieces of classical music later..........I can hear frantic voices in the background..........

office: The department is the voivodeship of Malopolska

me: Thank you, you have been most helpful.

I put the phone down with a big smile on my face and then realize...............

S**t!!!!!!! I forgot to ask if there was a fee for this!!!!!!........sob...sob.....sob

Travel / What to do when it's raining in Gdansk [33]

erdemath

How about this? By singing the song "I'm singin' in the rain
Just singin' in the rain," from Frank Snatra.

Actually, it was Gene Kelly

Real Estate / IS IT A GOOD TIME TO INVEST IN POLISH REAL ESTATE? [83]

bolek

"lol, then tell me mr know all, why don't real estate agents display a for sale sign on vendors property..."

That is an easy one to answer. The estate agent wants to get "two" commissions for selling, one from the seller and one from the buyer. If the estate agent puts a "for sale" sign outside of a sellers house, they are affraid that the buyer will deal directly with the seller and so avoid paying them the extra commission. The estate agent wants you to go to their office first and sign an agreement to pay them before they will put you in touch with the seller.

Another thing that seems to be popular with Polish estate agents is to "not" put a price on a property for sale. They do this to get people to telephone them first which is a waste of time if you are on a fixed budget and the properties you are looking at are all out of your price range.

I have seen some "for sale" signs on properties, but, these have been put up by the owners themselves.

Real Estate / Is there a Real Estate bubble in Krakow? [60]

Polsky..........you are the same person who has been "spamming" Polish Forums for the past week. You make unsubstantiated comments in order to provoke a response. Get a life.

posted by Avalon on Nov.06.2009

I posted just one message - this message. With clear arguments and study of the real estate markets. And almost every real estate expert agress with this. Few of the many arguments: I think everybody knows that for buying real estate you need to have DEMAND. RIght now there is just OVERSUPPLY from the 3-4 million poles working aborad, who never plan to return. Demand comes from people who usually pay with their wages, the credit from the bank. For an average wage of 2000 zlotych/month, bank allows you maximum 800 zl/month of payment for your mortgage. 800 zl/month for a credit of 20 years, equals 800 x 12 = 9600 zl / year equals maximum 200 000 zl (rounded in plus) for an apartment in Krakow. So that is the correct market price for a 2-3 rooms apartment (60-100 sq.m.) in Krakow: 200 000 zl Right now there are thousands of apartments for sale at absurd prices, and nobody is buying... (PS it seems that the only spammer is Avalon here)

posted by polsky on Nov.06.2009

this thread relates to krakow and only krakow

Real Estate / IS IT A GOOD TIME TO INVEST IN POLISH REAL ESTATE? [83]

jwojcie

"You are certainly right. But take into consideration that in bubble years 50% profit was normal thing for developers in Poland. They will not do anything for free for sure, but they certainly will take 15% profit..."

When you factor in inflation at 4% and bank interest of 6-7% it would not be worth spending a couple of years on a project which would only nett you 5%. No company could work on a business plan like that and the banks would certainly refuse to finance it. You make it sound as if 15% profit is worthwile?, it is if you are selling something over a shop counter!!!!

Do you have any idea of how long it takes to plan a building project, get the necessary permissions, set the financing in place, select the conractors from their bids, deal with the authourities over minor issues, market and sell the flats and then still deal with the clients who want to know why you never included a swimming pool and a helicopter landing pad into the design.

The business's that think they can make 50-100% profits are banks and share dealers, no construction company could plan or build expecting to make these types of margins, there are to many variables that affect the final profit margin, even bad weather can add a lot of unexpected cost to a project.

I would not say that it is impossible to make good profits, but you would need a lot of luck and maybe catch a "boom in prices" after you have started construction. There is no way you could plan it 3-4 years ahead. If you could, you would not build, you would buy shares instead.

Real Estate / IS IT A GOOD TIME TO INVEST IN POLISH REAL ESTATE? [83]

Tadeusz2007

What the hell have the parks in Berlin got to do with Polish real estate?

You still have not addressed the problem of producing goods for less than cost price?

The present Polish government was elected on certain mandates, one of which was to provide 3,000,000 new apartments/houses over a period of their term in office, this was to be new housing and replacement of exisiting defective stock. I suggest you look at the construction figures for the past 4 years and see what was actually built. If you factor in the Luxury end of the market, you will find that only a small amount of "affordable" housing has been constructed.

The only two positive initiatives brought in by this government have been the "one family" scheme which helps first time buyers with deposit and 50% interest payments for the first 8 years.

The second scheme could be a potential disaster. Allowing people to buy their rented flats in the old communist blocks is not such a bargain as it seems. The blocks were poorly constructed and are suffering from "concrete cancer", whereby the reinforcing bars are rusting and causing large cracks in the concrete slabs used in construction. Fixing insulation or cladding to the outside is only a short term solution. The UK has already started pulling down these tower blocks and constructed new dwellings to replace them. Where are you going to house the existing tennants if this has to be done in Poland?

The one true help that the Polish goverment should have given, would have been to abolish VAT on new build houses/apartments, as in the UK. This would encourage both private builders and developers, create jobs and improve the housing stock.

As very little is being built at the moment, the loss of revenue from VAT would be offset by the taxes paid from the new jobs created and the Polish people would benefit from having decent homes to live in, not to mention the ecological aspect of savings made from better constructed housing which should keep the EU happy regarding "carbon emmissions"

Real Estate / IS IT A GOOD TIME TO INVEST IN POLISH REAL ESTATE? [83]

Tadeusz2007
Today, 03:56

Tadeusz2007

An article for all you guys:

How to value Polish real estate or any other real estate

Basically the rule of thumb is this. Take the average netto income in any country you live and this is what the cost of a flat should be per square meter. If in Krakow the average is 2000 pln a month. A flat should cost 2000 pln a square meter. Poland has the biggest difference between average wages and prices of flats in the EU. The average person in in the Polish market can only afford a flat with little money down. Speculators are pulling out of the Polish real estate market for greener pastures, i.e. rising price real estate markets, for example Bulgaria and other new land rushes. Now Poland is a hot economy and will stay strong for many reasons, however, the real estate market is a a bubble of ridiculous proportions.

And what if the Land and build cost is, say, 2,500 PLN (excluding any profit for the developer or the 7% VAT which the Government takes), who will build these apartments?

According to your theory, Toyota will be selling new cars for 10,000 PLN.

As much as you would like it, nobody is going to produce anything at less than cost price, that includes the food you eat. Ask the french dairy farmers how this system works.

Love / Polish girlfriend going back to Poland if I dont buy engagment ring [85]

Remember, there are three rings!!!!
1) The engagement ring.
2) The wedding ring.
3) The suffer-ring

Law / What is the quickest and cheapest way to send money to a bank account in Poland? [37]

If you have internet banking then it should take a couple of days to transfer funds. My bank in the UK, HSBC normally charge around £8.00.for transferring £1000.00. (maximum charge £21.00. for large amounts) my bank in Poland charges another £8.00. to receive it and they set the exchange rate to convert the Sterling into Zloty but its not usually too bad.

Two years ago I transferred 75,000 Euro from a bank in Spain and it was 2 months for the Polish banks to clear the transfer. I was not paid any interest for the two months that the Polish bank sat on this money.

Work / English qualifications to start Teaching English In Poland. Is degree of some sort needed? [123]

Not if you are have to deal in legal or civil terms. wording becomes very important, especially if you are relying on a translator to help you.