History / Anita J. Prazmowska's "The Polish Century" [24]


Actually, it was you who brought in the Jews. But that as a side remark. I started this thread as a discussion on the perspectives of a Polish historian.


What claims? Within the CP or outside of it? If it was within the CP, wasn't it simply due to a struggle for power and might there have been some anti semitic traces in there that led to the Jews being expelled?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Off-Topic / CEE - Central European Empire [49]


I gave you TWO helmets!

>^..^<

M-G (has gazillions of troops pulled together encircling the CEE)

Off-Topic / CEE - Central European Empire [49]

Ok, and I will take over Western Europe as potentate. I will form a cordon of alliances and start a Bantje-Bantje war and that'll be the end of the Central European Empire.

>^..^<

M-G (we need new Hinterland)

History / Anita J. Prazmowska's "The Polish Century" [24]


This would actually be the first time that I agree with you.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Anita J. Prazmowska's "The Polish Century" [24]


Not as deeply sunk as you though. Did you read the dissertation?


See, this is exactly the answer that I expected from you. All historians manipulate the facts, leave stuff deliberately out of it or straightout lie. She treats the Kielce Pogrom mainly as a political matter and evaluates from all sides. The Kielce Pogrom was NOT triggered by Jewish crimes. And you know that very well. Instead you decide to cling on to that popular myth that miss Prazmowska also points out: the ever present victimisation. Of course it were the others that started it and of course the poor Poles did nothing but retaliate. Tell me, what was so horrible that this handful of Jews could've done to trigger the murder of 43 of them in July 1946? WHAT besides the rumour that they lived in better conditions than the Poles? A rumour that has never been confirmed with facts. And then I'm not even talking about that depraved story about the Jews ritually killing christian children.


And what makes you think that those historians who state the opposite of miss Prazmowska are NOT liars? Not bearers of the popular Polish thought? Is the entire world a liar because they try to bring some nuance to the black and white debate? By dismissing every dissenting sound, you're limiting the historical debate. She makes a good point when she says that on one hand the Poles complain that nobody understands their situation while on the other hand they cannot empathize on the impact certain of their acts have on the outside world.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Anita J. Prazmowska's "The Polish Century" [24]

You have a point there, but the problem is in that case that you can basically rule out about 75 per cent of all the historians and the ones who write about other countries with which they don't have any link to, get disregarded as well as they "don't know what it's like". Seen it happen many times. Notorious example would be Simon Schama, I've mentioned him before. He wrote a heavy book on the Dutch Golden Age in the 1600's. However, most of the book is based upon (American) assumptions about NL and sometimes on straightout myths. It's been a while ago since I read it, but I seem to remember that he actually found "proof" that Hansje Brinkers (you know, the kid who supposedly put his finger in a hole in a dyke and doing so saved NL from flooding) actually happened. And that story is nothing but a myth.

You cannot rule out those historians that write about their country's history as you would limit the historical debate to just a small group and even though they may be biased (although a good historian would never be!), all of the historians have valid points, no matter if they write about their own country or some other country.

What attracted me in Prazmaoska's dissertation is that she mentions all sides and imo rather neutral by pointing out on one hand the victimisation of Poles and the way they have been treated and on the other hand the obvious anti semitism which is/was present in Poland. And deals with the Kielce Pogrom as a political incident for the biggest part. She doesn't point only in one direction, but shows both sides of the medal.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Anita J. Prazmowska's "The Polish Century" [24]


Well, she does say that Britain betrayed Poland in the discourse I linked to. In fact she mentions it a few times during the first session.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / I was cursing Poland daily, then returned home, but now thinking of going back.. [39]


Well, the thing only goes for places where you've been once and had a great time. Only to find that the next time you're going, it's not that great or after living there you find that it's just a place like everywhere else. I have that too.


That's an old one :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Life / I was cursing Poland daily, then returned home, but now thinking of going back.. [39]


That's not a typical Polish thing. Most ppl all across the globe have that. Nietzsche already said: "where you are not, there is your treasure" and it's true. Other places are always more exciting, more fun until you've lived there for longer than 6 months. Then you will find out that it's just a place like everywhere else in the world. Probably you will start to think by then that at home it's much better. It's just human nature, you want what you don't have and once you have it, you want either sth else or back what you had.

>^..^<

M-G (normal behaviour)

Life / what is GG chat please? [17]

Nah, I just don't like it. The only use I see for it is when you are communicating with family or friends that live far away from you, then it comes in handy.

Well for the use you guys pointed out, I can see some use in there too, however, one can also pick up the phone and make a quick call - in case when a response is directly needed, that would be the quickest way.

>^..^<

M-G (the chicken with cherry sauce was delicious)

Life / what is GG chat please? [17]

Well, I cannot read Polish, but yet I managed to set it up, some time ago... :) It's pretty basic and logic, so with even a minimum of PC knowledge, you should be able to figure it out if you don't speak or read Polish. Don't have it anymore though, there's no point and with Skype, GoogleTalk and even still an ICQ account I am more than well served with pointless instant msging...

>^..^<

M-G (oh look, you can now get IM for your mobile too! Now you can ask your friend what he is doing, not only when he's at home, but also when he's not at home! Also you can ask him the most asked question in modern communication: "where are you now?" Anyway, going to have chicken with cherry sauce now. Yum:) )

Law / WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE EURO CURRENCY TO POLAND? [101]


Yeah, one or two Greek restaurants here in Dubs would not be out of place. Can you believe that in a city of nearly two million ppl, there is not ONE single Greek restaurant? Yeah, there is one in Malahide, but that's about 20 km outside of Dublin...It's really a disgrace. Have to say that when I first came here, I was stunned by the lack of variation for a big city like Dublin: in a radius of about one mile from my home there are, give or take, 50 Chinese restaurants and they all offer the same menu (ALWAYS combined with Thai, how boring - I like Thai food, but pls bring some more choice), about 25 pizzerias with nearly the same menu, 15 Indian joints with the inevitable chicken tikka and one dozen of chippers where they throw in half a litre of vinegar into your fries. And that is about the choice you have in Dublin. There are 1 or 2 Spanish restaurants, 1 Mexican restaurant and maybe 5 or 6 restaurants of another type of cuisine, but it's always freaking Chinese, Indian, Italian or Irish...So boring :( Sometimes I wonder how all these restaurants survive here...


lemme guess, Jewish bankers, of course? Well no, the main Greek problem is the pensions and a couple of other state funded thingies that are way and way too high. Sure, the bankers are responsible for the credit crisis, together with the ppl who wanted to live on a higher level than they could afford (YES! I am still convinced that all those ppl taking loans which they knew they could not afford are co-responsible for the crisis, not only the bankers. Banks should have advised, but ppl should've been more wise), but Greece is solely responsible for the current crisis in the Eurozone. She has been lying to the rest and she has been paying her pensioners way and way too much. And the current government gets to clean up the mess from previous governments. But what do you know, you're American, you don't know how the European mentality and system works. Heck I even wonder if you know your own system :)

>^..^<

M-G (likes variation in food - always thought the most silly thing to see was ppl entering a chinese restaurant and then ordering fish and chips)

Law / WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE EURO CURRENCY TO POLAND? [101]

You got a point there. One could indeed ask himself, why are these officials there when they don't do their job? But then again, name me one (Euro-) country that likes some smartcrack nosing in their financial household. And you cannot blame the Euro as such for Greece lying to the commission. Greece shouldn't have lied in the first place and secondly, if we cannot trust our fellow EU countries anymore, then what the heck are we doing? I would say that Greece gets 3 years to make stuff in order again. If they cannot make that and still need more money, I'd say, out with them. They're bringing everybody else down. All the others who did their homework nicely and didn't have any problems at all, but are being dragged down now by some lying country.

Recently I read that ppl with "dangerous" jobs, like hairdressers, tv-presenters and musicians that play on wind-instruments (I definitively kid you not!!) are allowed to retire at 50 (women) and 55 (men) and then receive more money than they did while they were working...Ridiculous!! I'd say, cut down severely on that and let them work until 65, like in most EU countries and cut the moneys they get from the government in half. Even if you have never worked one single day in your life, your retirement pay from the government will be about 1500 Euros, that is more than the average salary in the Netherlands (not talking about educated jobs). Knowing that, it kinda makes me sick to see those old bags demonstrate to keep their high income for free. Some of them are not even 60. My dad had to work until he was 65 and then had to beg to get some state pension beside his regular pension for years. And then we are supposed to finance their crap? Fcuking lying and cheating bastards!

Didn't mean to rant and rave, but I just hate to see good countries go down because of one lying bytch like Greece, abusing the system for so long and then lying to us and then play Santa Claus with our money and then when the shyte hits the fan, we can come to the rescue? I understand why the EU does it, though: if they don't, the consequences will be even more severe. Some nice fellow EU country we have in Greece.

>^..^<

M-G (likes Greek food though)

Law / WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE EURO CURRENCY TO POLAND? [101]


Because Britain wants to be part of Europe and yet they don't. But it's getting better, I think. At least not as rabiate anti-European as Thatcher and her pet-dog Major, that is.

One shouldn't blame the Euro for what's currently happening in Greece. Greece's previous government(s) lied to the EU and made a mess of their own economics. The current government is left with the ruins of that. But it's only a Greek thing, the Euro cannot be held responsible for that. Although we suffer the consequences of Greek mismanagement and I dearly wished the EU had thought more carefully and deeply before letting the Greek in.

As I said before, when Churchill and Stalin divided Europe, Churchill got Greece on the premises that Stalin would get Poland. Given the current situation, I'd rather let Stalin have Greece and Churchill have Poland. As I don't think Poland would've messed things up so badly as the Greek did.

>^..^<

M-G (likes Greek food though)

History / To Understand Poland 39-89 (L.U.C - TRIBUTE TO STEFAN STARZYŃSKI) [17]


The Polish Rammstein? :)

I liked the flanger they linked through to the synth and I do like the arrangements. However, and again, that's just me, I would think it would be more impressive if the singer would have a lower voice - indeed like Til Lindemans from Rammstein. Their music is so impressive for the biggest part due to his low and bombastic voice. I think the msg would come across a bit better as it would hammer it into the listeners. Now it gets a little lost, which is a pity.

Does this band specialize in "historical" songs?


No no no, it's more impressive without. It leaves it up to the imagination of the listener and that adds an extra dimension to the tune as such.

Edit: the remarks I had about the scratch part were pure stylistic in nature, it was not meant to diminish anything off the msg. But I'm sure you understand.

>^..^<

M-G (listens to every kind of music)

History / To Understand Poland 39-89 (L.U.C - TRIBUTE TO STEFAN STARZYŃSKI) [17]


Like said, I listened mainly to the music, firstly because I make music myself and secondly, when Sokidoki says it sucks, it must be great :)

As far as understanding Poland goes, I still don't understand the nagging and the whinging and whining, but I do understand the heroics that were involved back then. But I already understood that. Because, in spite of what some of the posters here may think, there are a lot of ppl outside its borders that do understand how terrible it must have been.

Anyway, I liked the music, experimental, but not too experimental and it has these nice industrial elements in it, although I still think the scratch part could've done a bit better, but that's just my opinion. If other ppl like it, then so be it.

Bratwurst, since you are German, those industrial elements must surely appeal to you as Einstürzende Neubauten, together with Die Krupps and a couple of other German bands invented industrial music.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / To Understand Poland 39-89 (L.U.C - TRIBUTE TO STEFAN STARZYŃSKI) [17]


I'm impressed. I liked the vocal intermezzo at about 2.30 mins, especially when he exclaims "Polska" before the drumline takes up again. What I didn't like, but that could be just because it's a Polish vocal sample and I don't understand what he says, is the scratch bit when the tank rushes into Warschau and destoys the pianos there. But like I said, that could be just because it's in Polish. In all, very good; music is original, I kinda like industrial/electronic at times and this fits perfectly in the eerie atmosphere that the artist wanted to create.

It also feeds on a common myth we had in the West about the invasion of Poland: horses against tanks. The Polish army did have tanks, right? The cavalery wasn't only on horses. But for the rest, good, good, good. Reflects perfectly the heroic struggle against the two demons Poland had to endure.

Thanks for this.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / How was Poland compensated after World War 2 [47]


The lands in question were a British protectorate at the time plus the lands were originally Jewish, but Arabs went to live there - why do you think, were there crusades? Because Arabs threatened to steal the holy land - Jewish land. If we're going to claim lands on historical grounds, then Israël was originally Jewish. You should be able to comprehend that when you take the territories Poland retrieved from Germany after the war. Hundreds of years before the Germans took them they were Polish, then Poland got them back. Same goes for Israël. It was Jewish originally, then the Arabs took it, or better, mingled with the original Jewish population and after the war, the Jews took back what was theirs.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / How was Poland compensated after World War 2 [47]


Well, that's not entirely true. There are plenty of victims (or better descendents of victims) that didn't get compensated, not only Poles, among them the majority of the Jews. My grandparents weren't compensated, for example. 3 things go to show that: firstly, if the current German government were to compensate all the victims of WW2, the German state would be bancrupt, which in turn could lead to much worse circumstances for the future; and secondly, why the heck should the current German government (or the current Russian government for that matter) pay for crimes committed by their ancestors? Germany for one has paid on plenty of occasions and I personally think that there comes a time that it should be done with. At one point in time, Germany cannot be held responsible anymore for what happened in the past. How long should it go on then? 500 years? If that is true, I know a lot of countries that should still be paying for sth that happened in the Middle Ages. And thirdly, right after WW2, Poland disappeared behind the Iron curtain, which made it kinda impssbl to compensate victims living there as they were supposed to be the enemy as of that moment.

And pls don't say that Poland was devastated after WW2. It was, that's true, but there were more countries devastated, more cities destroyed, and not all of them, not to say most of them, did not get compensated as well.

>^..^<

M-G (just watched Grumpy Old Men and was reminded what a great movie it actually is)

News / Brown's 'Bigotgate' and the debate about Poles [63]


I'm just bashing the bashers. Of course when you bash on the Jews or the blacks, I'm gonna call you a racist. That is, if you do it consistently. That is because these both groups have been bashed on so often that it's getting annoying. What I was trying to say is that the biggest racists on this forum (and elsewhere) usually are the first accusing you of racism if you bash on them. I don't bash on ppl who don't bash. Simply a matter or what goes around, comes around. I'm fighting them with their own means.

But when you bash on cyclists, then I wouldn't. I hate cyclists.

:)


Well, racism towards dark ppl is inhaerent to the word "racism", negativity towards other races. One cannot be a racist towards one's own race.

>^..^<

M-G (darn those two-wheeled freaks!)

News / Brown's 'Bigotgate' and the debate about Poles [63]


I do, but it happens an aweful lot of times. Of course I know not all Poles do this, but look around you on this forum, it makes it kinda hard not to believe it.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / Brown's 'Bigotgate' and the debate about Poles [63]


This was meant as a more general remark, not at flower. Seen this happen so many times. Example (true story): Polish friend: "ah those darn blacks, they're criminal, all of them, they don't wash themselves and they are lazy, I don't like them." (two sentenses later): "...and then he said he didn't like the Polish! Can you believe that? Can you believe that somebody says that?"

Catch my drift?
And besides: she does nag :)


They're the newest Tsunami. Arabs, Turks and Pakistani have been there quite a long time. Also, a lot of Poles like to think that everything is directed at them and meant to insult them.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / World Record For Wroclaw: 7,000+ guitarists gathered in one place. (updated 2012) [18]

I've heard about this yes. Seems to be indeed an annual thing. A friend of mine went there, I think two or three years ago. He was very excited about it - don't know if he went this year, but since he's a guitarfreak, I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

And Skysoulmate, I fully agree: pls no more Stairway to heaven. I have horrormemories of all those friends of mine who want to show off their guitar skills and then they start playing that freaking Stairway for the 10.000th time :S Not like I haven't heard that one before...:(

>^..^<

M-G (well, if they all would burst out a "When the Levee breaks", now, that would be impressive:) )

News / Poland should move its location to be more secure.. [21]


I see a civil war coming on...

:))

>^..^<

M-G (open door)

News / Poland should move its location to be more secure.. [21]

We only have 60 million years to wait for this to happen :)

But actually, I would suggest that NL move on this map too. Throughout history we've been invaded by our neighbours at least as much as PL has. So that would be fair as well. Perhaps a place beside Italy would be nice, knowing Italy's militairy capacities ;)

>^..^<

M-G (plus the food would be great as well)

News / Poland could emerge as new European and world power. If? [116]

As soon as the Vatican will start paying my bills and my rent, then I will start believing in the Vatican. Not any sooner. Yes, that was sarcasm, in case some uneducated sb accuses me of something imaginairy.

>^..^<

M-G (ole, Spaniards, here I come)

History / Should visitors to Auschwitz pay an entrance fee? [82]

Since I hear so many of my original points concerning this matter in this thread coming back, I will quote my first post, just in case anyone missed it.

And don't forget: you heard it first on M-G radio :))

>^..^<

M-G (has to meet a bunch of Spaniards now, I hope it will be hotties, but I'm afraid it will be only men :S )

News / Poland could emerge as new European and world power. If? [116]

If Easter and Pentrecote fall on the same day, only then.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (grin)

History / Should visitors to Auschwitz pay an entrance fee? [82]


Well, I'm part of the "group of victims", so common sense says I could never be guilty by association. But I keep an open mind on how these things should be treated and if money is needed to maintain it, I would say it's not fair to let the Polish taxpayer cough up all the money and start charging a tenner or have the EU provide funding.

Other, I do get your point now. How painful it may be, it's part of PL now and inevitably when American tourist come to PL they will want to see proof of the biggest blunder in human history...

>^..^<

M-G (that doesn't mean that it's obligatory, though)