Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


Some are mentally poor... Many, indeed.

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

I'm surprised Plus is still Polish (corporate) owned company (with Vodafone partnership). TPSA (state-owned) still has slight ownership majority over the French partner. Others are sold to major Western players. Now you Gumishu collect enthusiastic people around you and become mobile telephony operator ;-)

I'm saying: Private entrepreneurship is gangster, warrior-like thing. Individuals accumulate money and power when possible not necessarily by clean ways. Many Commies had chance to do that, stole money and failed. Others were able to create solid businesses. Also, big deal of people making their money before 1989 by for example smuggling, accumulated their capital and they grew up. Natural consequence is corporate development. Is not Optimus S.A. a corporation?

I say: I excuse private entrepreneurs for the way they earned their first million as long as their activities give employment and increase the wealth of the country. Do we understand each other?

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


Check.


Mr Kluska was mistreated, by abusing influences by certain competitors applied against Kluska, mafia style. However, we do not know very much of Kluska's own past activities to grow his own company; I simply don't believe he did 100% things cleanly himself in the past. Especially, own involvement of Kluska in politics later gives food for thoughts.


He was the one of people who needed to do "original accumulation of capital". He had to have means to start and grow his company so fast. Certainly Kluska did not build his company on bank credit. He had to make money pre-1989.

How did Wilczek, Król, Solorz make their initial capital? There was a bid for the first independent TV station. Solorz won. Now think Gumishu, you are there. Where are you taking the money for Polsat from?

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

You Gumishu mix the matter of activities of crooks against Kluska with his own activities. How do you think did Kluska earn his first million? Ever thought about it?

Now, take your mobile phone or a PC you are using to write on PF. Do you think that a spontaneous group of people could build such devices from scratch and so cheaply in addition to that? Or, perhaps industry and business are needed?

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

Those "gangsters" give employment to millions and they drive the civilization forward. In ancient times, similar people were called Kings, aristocracy, gentry, at least in their origin.

BTW, every day, there is an article in Norwegian press "Aftenposten", 'VG" for example on Mr Rokke. He is extremely popular. Other top Norwegians may be richer than Rokke but they do not make much publicity.

Gumishu, you wrote (with a smile) that you want all Poles drive SUVs.
This is the song for you:

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

Gumishu, big business is not for faint hearts. It is for gangsters and warriors and you better understand that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kjell_Inge_R%C3%B8kke

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


Gumishu, I've already told you -- you know to little and this makes your views so pessimistic and so socialist.

The richest person in Norway, Mr Rokke, started his career as a fisherman. Things done by your Mr Misiak are "pikuś" (a trifle) compared to things done by Mr Rokke. And imagine what, actions of Mr Rokke are one of major force driving the Norwegian economy, giving employment and well-being to masses of Norwegian people, also to immigrants.

I know it is hard to change someone's socialist thinking, I'm not giving up yet.

Travel / Most beautiful small towns / villages of Poland [49]

Pszczyna, the capital of Green Upper Silesia, formerly owned by Princes of Pless. Wonderful Castle (a palace), the park, bisons, skansen, a museum when you can find original musical instruments, also those played by Georg Telemann.

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


You described people driving SUVs as crooks. Have you ever thought that good education, skill and hard work plus a bit of luck earn you things?

You are so sorry for farmers. Are you a farmer? Describe your own experience and tell us what you are doing in life yourself, what your own expectations are and what you expect from your dream Government to secure you a SUV, foreign holidays and a mansion.

There are four type of people:
1. Ones who spend own money for own purposes. We call them capitalists.
2. Ones who spend own money for purposes of other people. We call them philanthropists.
3. Ones who spend money of other people for own purposes. We call them thieves.
4. Ones who spend money of other people for purposes of other people. we call them socialists.
/Janusz Korwin-Mikke/

What type of person are you, Gumishu?

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


My question to Gumishu was if he expected teachers to drive SUVs.
I don't think so.

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


Yes, because for example students drink a lot and beer at a shop is far cheaper ;-)

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


I do not know. I attend mostly Warsaw sailors' taverns. Some regulars bring their own drinks on very rare special occasions with the knowledge of the owner but it is very rare. Typically, the bouncers at clubs even inspect the bags of guests at gate to eliminate own alcohol.

One thing that has just come to my mind. There is a huge sailing people community in Poland. They can afford own boats, they can afford renting boats and they can afford sea voyages. I do not know how they can afford it, many of them being teachers or underpaid clerks?

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

Gumishu, you've apparently seen too little in your life to understand.

On my drinking bout in Cambridge (to which I set off in a modest suit, no neck-tie), I have been to six pubs and spoke with six groups of people, all of them being English teachers. I spent the longest time with four female teachers. Those ladies could not afford drinks at the pub, so being regular guests, they were buying some tonic water and they were adding own gin under the table. Of course I was buying ales at the bar and occasionally I bought drinks for my new friends. By chance, I had a bottle of Navy Rum in my bag, so I asked the ladies if they would like some. They said "No, thank you, you are a new person here, this is not OK".

After longer drinking, it got quite late and one of the teachers discovered she would have no transportation to her place. Calling a taxi company, she found out she would not be able to afford the taxi... and she started weeping...

On the same stay, the local host booked me some Indian-owned B&B in Cambridge. The "English breakfast" was shameful: some porridge, a toast and processed cheese. The owner asked me if I could send some Polish maid to work at his "hotel" (apparently for chicken money).

Now tell me about the poverty in Poland, mate...

P.S. My hotel in Wrocław charges GBP29 per night including "full Polish breakfast".

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


This is for example because you pay PLN11 per cigarette packet in Poland and PLN30 for same in UK. The price level and average income in given country have nothing to do with "poverty".

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


That's the point, Pete. Poles really want to have everything the finest over 5 years, they cannot get it, so the "poverty propaganda" easily gets into the minds of young people. "Żyć ponad stan" (Living above what you can afford), "Zastaw się, a postaw się" (Pawn your belongings and make a great party to show your high status) have already been in Poland in the 17th-18th century.

Over last weekends, I'm giving a series of workshops to Wrocław university students, training them in use of specialized technical software, their future tool. The University financing for the course was too low, so each of those 40 young people paid PLN100 from their own pocket to make the budget up. Meaning, each of those 40 students preferred learning over 40 beers for each. And this is so positive!

Gumishu you are talking on a school teacher driving a SUV. Do you think is is normal for a school teacher to drive a SUV? Look goddam around, go to any bigger city -- it is crammed with new 4x4 -- do you believe Poland is only crooks? Then we are missing resources to be stolen by so many.

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]

You mean the father -- the truck driver -- his son playing American Fender Stratocaster?

"Well, man, I'm doing myself quite fine...
But see all that poverty around!
Donald Tusk to get all BLAME"

Life / Who is poor in Poland? [720]


I'm with you.


The same people have PCs, good TV sets, gaming consoles, mobile phones, home-theaters etc. A used car costs same as a good PC. No-having a car because of "poverty" is no excuse.

Last weekend I could hardly park my car by the Technical University campus, all parking space occupied. All those "poor students"... And those were the "external" students, coming to the session. Regular students bring even more cars on work-days and park them far away.

I spoke with a young man, he also believed Poland was poor. I asked him questions what he and his family owned, how they life was. This 19-yo, a son of a truck driver, plays American Fender Stratocaster (U.S. made, not Mexico or Korea!). Then he says "good new cars are only driven by company Board members, very rich people". Wherever I look I see large new 4x4 expensive cars. I didn't know we had so many Board members in Poland.

The "poverty" propaganda poisons so many people, starting from the youth... Who of course cannot afford a brand new Jeep, foreigh holidays, large house etc... but play American Fender, while many U.S. grown-up musicians settle with Squier, the Chinese brand of Fender...

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]

Tak było!

More impressions, 1989+:
No doubt we were all excited with the changes. The total failure of commies in the Senate elections was great, since Senate elections were 100% free (Sejm elections guaranteed the commies part of the seats, hence "sejm kontraktowy", contractual sejm). Free press starting with Gazeta Wyborcza. More chances to travel and passports kept at home, not at the passport office. Let me give an example.

In 1972, my parents and I were invited to Italy by our family branch living there. My Dad was refused a passport. In 1974, parents re-applied and got passports. They were allowed to buy... $50 each for the whole trip. Of course, it was ridiculous. If not money sent from Italy, we could not make it.

In 1990, I got a business visa to Germany and could see, at age of 29, the free world with eyes of a grown-up for the first time. When I saw Berlin Zoo station, I almost collapsed, the impression was so strong. I stayed in Germany for 3 months, witnessing Germany re-unification. I know it will sound strange but the stay in the Germany was the first time in my life when I could eat as much as I pleased. My father was a clerk and my mother was a microbiologist. There had been very little food at home as long as I can remember. So, going out to Germany I weighed 55 kg & 173 cm, and on the return I got already some body ;-)

My return and all those small vendors selling banana in the streets of Warsaw ;-)

Poland started growing, it was very distinct. Stopping hyperinflation by Balcerowicz was great thing. Already in 1995 I could sit with an American in a cozy restaurant of Hotel Maria in Warsaw, enjoying new zloties, the feel of the fiver was GREAT. The same year, a friend from Romania came in Warsaw. He stood by a fruit stall, silent, then he sadly said: "I never knew that peaches could be that large..."

Now, 22 years since the fall of Communism in Poland, I am willing to puke reading all those "Polish" complaining how poor and tragic this Poland of today is... Because a loser will look for guilty everywhere, only not in himself.

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]

(Hoping mods save this post, as I almost have given up PF yesterday... Don't they have a life except deleting posts?)
It was 1987 and I was serving in the Army in Warsaw, having the chance to be at home with my family and the baby quite frequently. The infant formula products were -- as you know Rybnik the best -- very hard to get. Some day, a delivery of Bebiko was made to the kiosk in the military unit, which was funny, because as far as I know there was nobody else than me interested in that there. Still, one person was only allowed to buy one box of the infant nutrient.

So I called up my platoon, gave them money and told them march to the kiosk ;-) My men bought a box per person and I had THIRTY boxes of Bebiko, enough for quite long time!

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]


No, I was too busy looking for infant formula products for my baby, and I was also too busy with my new work to remember that.

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]


I can remember that to some extent. I went to my first work after the University and military service in May 1988. There were numerous strikes where workers demanded higher wages. To pacify strikes, the national bank was printing money. Since the supply of goods was insufficient, prices of goods were sky-rocketing. Since the Government could not allow other classes such as scientists, teachers, clerks, medical personnel etc. starve either, more money were printed, then the prices were going further up... I have a feeling the top price of a dollar was some PLZ 10K. The money was worthless. On some Valentine's Day, someone sent me a valentine including a million zloties and text: "Would you sell your wife for a million?" I keep the note until today.

I do not think the hyperinflation was really explained. The authorities simply lost control and could see no way out.

By the way, the first releases of Gazeta Wyborcza were at 50 zloties (half new grosz of today). I also can remember $/PLN exchange rate at the denomination: It was 2.5 PLN per 1 USD. It is around 2.8 PLN per dollar today, although meanwhile dollar was as strong as 4.5 PLN.

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]

For me, there are two impressions of 1989+ that really stayed in my memory as landmarks:

Just before the changes have begun, and later especially during the hyperinflation, I was exchanging any money I could save to US$, illegally of course. I was thinking that way: "If this grim life continues, the dollar will be a good saving here. If the changes go into the right direction, I'll lose all my savings but it will mean we have reached the normal world". My savings reached... $100 ;-) And I have lived up the normal life, never regretting that. My Dad and Mum were saying "We never thought we would live up the free Poland again..."

The other impression was full availability of banana, something unthinkable before. Banana were everywhere ;-)

Travel / Driving to Poland from England - any tips? [264]

Don't you use GPS and navigation, wireless? A good navigation program tells you where petrol stations are, moreover, you can search nearest ones by brand name.

Grubas, Orlen and LOTOS have terribly bad shops and bars, this is why I don't use them. Try to buy a sandwich at ORLEN at night, good luck.

Travel / Driving to Poland from England - any tips? [264]

wireless, I have to tell you the large truck traffic is also heavy at night. As long as you drive motorways or dual carriageways, no problem at all. Still, night driving will not relieve you from large trucks because many of them take the advantage of night time, too.

Yes, it is safe to even take a nap at a petrol station, yet I recommend choosing large "brand" stations such as Statoil, BP, Shell, etc.

History / What was it like in 1989+ in Poland when the Soviet house of cards fell? [237]

Grubas, Ironside,

The older I get, the less I'm inclined to discuss matters with people who have Belief. You cannot dispute Belief.
I'll only tell you you live in some dreamworld to compensate the fact you feel losers inside. I let you have the Belief.

Off-Topic / How do Polish people operate? what makes them tick? [103]

Show me your picture Havok, I need to see how well you look because of your wellbeing ;-)
Urszula is welcomed, too.

Off-Topic / How do Polish people operate? what makes them tick? [103]


Because it is one of things we perceive as personal freedom of an individual.
Besides, I smoke Marlboros.

Havok, Urszula, do I look 70 being 50? And you know, funny thing, I learned playing guitar and bass in recent 4 years. I wonder what your comment related to Polish and Wroclaw Boy and age really meant...

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Off-Topic / How do Polish people operate? what makes them tick? [103]


First of all, graduating as Master of Science from a technical university and taking care to learn English.
Then, hard work and constant developing skills.
It does not matter what country you live -- except oppressive regimes -- to achieve success.
One more point: I have been to so many countries, still on each return to Poland I am inclined to kiss the home soil.


I think poverty is not limited to Poles. If you think otherwise, everybody except Poles should be rich in the United States.
Do you have some statistical facts to prove your statement?

Off-Topic / How do Polish people operate? what makes them tick? [103]

Aha. As I understand you, happy marriage, pretty wife you could trust, secure financial wellbeing, independence, and the ability to travel almost anywhere and anytime you wish is not possible for Poland's Poles?

Funny thing, I've probably been to bigger part of the world than you ever been, enjoy the same as you, and still am Poland's Pole.

Could you elaborate on why it is impossible to achieve what you have achieved for Poles living in Poland?

History / Poland's biggest historical blunder? [341]

Harry....

You mean, the Sikorski's soldiers fought against the allies in North Africa? Please explain.