News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

So virtually all the states in the world are wrong? That's nice to know.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

He paints it that they'd all vote for the Raving Monster Loony Party ;)

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Just think about what you are saying. For starters, how many 16-18 year olds are there compared to 18-65 year olds? Second off, the turnouts from 18-25 tend to be low anyway. There are plenty of stats to show that. Thirdly, they vote for the party that best interests things that matter to them in, let's say, an educational sense. What's wrong with that? Fourthly, adults are more about money making and not the development of the state for the most part. Just look at how the Tories cleaned up in the 1980's.

In the hands of teenagers? You are merely giving them a voice, a sense of empowerment. They will not tip the balance in most cases.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Look, I made the point before that many voters (assuming they even know in the first place) may vote for PO on one issue and PiS on the next. The more you see, the harder the vote is. 16-year olds would vote for simple matters and go with the party that is more closely allied to those basic needs.

What I would be willing to concede is that Poles finish their education later. We finish secondary school at 17 in the UK (assuming you stay on) and Poles at 19. Those two years can make the difference. Still, they are a cluey bunch in the main. You can look at it in so many ways. I started uni at 17 and scored very highly in my first year. My political knowledge was already fairly advanced by then.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

So you are a hater? That's not nice! ;) ;)

Many people over 30 haven't finished developing. Why disenfranchise a work in progress? Do you expect a miracle transformation at 18?

If decisions affect them so much and they pay taxes then why not give them the vote?

There are already rights and responsibilities at 16 as it stands. They tend to be better informed and in touch. They learn about citizenship and democracy is Key Stage 4.

Harriet Harman believes it's a good idea to directly take what they have learned to the voting ballot box. Strike while the iron is hot so to speak.

This would allow politicians to visit schools to ascertain popular sentiments on issues that affect them, i.e lunches and uniforms. They are also part of politics, just look at Roman Giertych here.

Almost 2000 people of 16 served in the Armed Forces in 2007. Wanna exclude them too? Also, there are too many old people and young people are being forgotten about.

Get people interested early and the rest takes care of itself.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

So you are saying that a 15 y.o is not a child? Maybe you are 7 years old after that kind of comment.

Look, if you show children of 16 how to operate a voting machine in school as part of the national curriculum then they are more likely to vote. Yale University ran a study on it.

It can become part of the syllabi and increase awareness that way. So many adults are out of touch.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

F stop, you've just said that religion played a huge part in politics and now they are completely separate. What's it to be?

Age 9

Iran (for females)[3]
Age 14

Albania [4]
American Samoa, United States
Isle of Man (for males)
Age 15

Iran (for males)[3]
Age 16

Cuba[5][6]
Kyrgyzstan [7]
Turkmenistan
United Kingdom
Uzbekistan [8]

The above are ages of maturity. You can't tell me that sb from the Isle of Man is less mature than any other. The UK is in there too at 16.

Beelzebub, please don't simplify criminality and mens rea to basic morality. It goes much deeper than that.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Religious influences? So Americans are a bunch of Skull&Bones followers, is that what you are saying? Religion is but one factor in the many that shape our voting habits. Is PO more Catholic than PiS in Poland? ;) ;)

Beelzebub, why is it 18 to vote in Turkey but that 11 is the age of criminal responsibility there? I've studied criminality at undergrad and postgrad levels and politics is much easier I think.

They don't know anything (not 'no' btw), that's garbage!

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Beelzebub, please answer me this. Austria, Brazil, Cuba, Guernsey, the Isle of Man, Jersey, Nicaragua and Switzerland all have 16 as the voting age. Why? Are they any more or less developed than Poland?

Also, it's 16 in Bremen and some other places in Germany but generally 18. Are those Germans somehow better placed to vote? The authorities clearly think so.

How about the special case in Guyana where it's 17 and they must be accompanied by an adult? What if sb was a day off of their 18th birthday and went along with a dumb 18-year old for a quick 20 second primer before casting their vote? LOL

Well, go and call those countries who deem the age of criminality to be under 16 moronic.

Mexico and the US 6-12
India 7
Myanmar 7
Nigeria 7
Pakistan 7
Singapore 7
South Africa 7
Sudan 7
Tanzania 7
Thailand 7
Indonesia 8
Kenya 8
Scotland (UK) 8 [5] There are plans to increase it to 12.[6][7]
Bangladesh 9
Ethiopia 9
Iran 9-15 Age 9 for girls, 15 for boys
Switzerland 10
Nepal 10
Australia 10 [8] Age of criminal responsibility in Australia
Presumption of incapacity of committing crime: 14.[8]
England and Wales (UK) 10 [9][10]
Northern Ireland (UK) 10 [11]
Ukraine 14
Turkey 11
Canada 12 [12]
Ireland 12 [13]
Israel 12
South Korea 12
Morocco 12
Uganda 12
Algeria 13
Austria 14
China 14 Absolute minimum for acts that constitute the following crimes: homicide, wounding resulting in death, rape, robbery, arson, explosion, planting of toxic substances and trafficking in dangerous drugs. The minimum age for other crimes are 16. In Hong Kong, the minimum age is 7 and in Macau, 16

Estonia 14
Germany 14 [14]
Hungary 14
Italy 14
Japan 12 [15]
New Zealand 14 Children in New Zealand can be charged with murder or manslaughter or minor traffic offences from age 10. All other offences cannot be charged under 14.

Romania 14
Russia 11
Slovenia 14
Spain 14 [16]
Vietnam 14
Uzbekistan 15
Egypt 15
Finland 15 [17]
Denmark 15 It is about to be lowered to 14 [18]
Norway 15 [19]
Sweden 15
Iceland 15
Czech Republic 15 [20]
Philippines 15

I'll get the addresses to write to, you'll be quite busy ;) ;)

Interesting to note that it's 9 in Iran for girls and 15 for boys. That supports the theory that girls mature much quicker than boys. Maybe there should be a separate age for boys and girls in each country based on their respective maturity??? Maybe adults over 25 should be IQ tested or maturity tested? LOL

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

So what do you say to those who voted George Bush, a war criminal, back into power? Did they understand well enough? Do they understand the Doctrine of Shock? Shouldn't they be reviled for allowing the person they voted for to run the US into trillions of dollars of national debt and let Dov Zakheim steal a HUGE amount from the Treasury? A 16-year old knows the man is a cretin. Where is the damage limitation then?

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

F stop, how about this? In Japan, there is the shinjinrui and rojinrui. The former are the younger generation who have a completely different view of politics than the latter, the older generation. There is a clear wedge between the two but both have a right to express their views and state their case.

Matowy, maybe we should disenfrachise black people for 'allegedly' being less intelligent? ;) ;) Maybe those 16-year olds would increase the voter turnout levels ;) ;)

Aha, so I was right, you think it's about damage limitation rather than the maturity of your average 16 year old!? Maybe we should also increase the age of consent to 18 across the board according to that logic. Are you aware of the complexity of criminality? Are Pakistanis, Tanzanians, Nigerians and Sudanese more intelligent and aware of potential repercussions than Poles? According to the level of education, I'd say not. However, the age of criminal responsibility there is 7 and 17 in Poland.

Things are not tidy and we have to live with that. I still feel that 16-year olds grasp the core issues enough to be able to vote.

Work / Do private ESL schools in Poland operate year-round? [5]

Callan and Profi don't have regular summer classes but the other schools I've worked for do. I got summer work through Britam and Speak Up. Not as lean as it was at Callan.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

The same could be said of many adults, f stop. Krysia is right.

I've worked with many Polish schoolkids of differing ages and I can safely say that many who are 14-16 could easily understand the main policies and operations of politics. The general level of understanding is high here. As a teacher, I often make judgements on understanding so I'm well placed to say.

Matowy made a good point with regards to experience, I'll give him that much. Why? Simply because I cannot vote in Poland yet (until I get my citizenship) but I read a lot on Polish politics. They deem me not to have the requisite experience of Polish politics. However, Polish schoolkids at 16 should have more contact than I, in theory anyway.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

Exactly, maybe he meant bogracz land, or leczo land? Wait, that's Hungary too ;) ;) (smiles)

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

If they are so influenced by their family, they will likely discuss political issues with them if their parents are so much into it. Shaping is the whole point, Matowy. For those that think, choosing a political party is not so straightforward. Some may agree with some policies of PiS, for example, but agree with PO on other issues. People also change their parties through moving around and talking to people, age and disillusionment with who they voted for etc etc. I've changed my party before.

So you are saying damage limitation by not letting 16-year olds vote? That's not based on rights and level of development at all. Adults are learning the whole time too. When I studied Economics as a module at uni, I struggled. I've read so widely since then that I can understand better now. The point is, I can remember being 14 at school and being amazed at just how smart some students around me were. Politics was nothing compared to what they could comprehend notionally. Please accept that most adults don't go so deeply into it so why exclude 16-year olds?

So, for clearance, are they or are they not aware or intelligent enough to vote? The way I see it, some are and some aren't. Just like adults really, agreed? They are given the capacity to consent to more complicated things than politics when much younger.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Just as adults vote for parties which could give them more money in their pockets, allegiance to other countries and more employment opportunities etc etc ;) ;)

Just because you couldn't, doesn't mean everyone else can't. Many adults don't care for politics either.

If they can understand the repercussions of sex (Spain = 13, average in Europe 15) then they can understand the key points of politics. I've taught many students aged between 12 and 16 who could easily understand the main tenets of politics if explained well to them.

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

For a start, knowledge cannot be used as a criteria as many adults don't have a clue and would fail even basic tests.

Look, are you aware how difficult a concept mens rea is? In Scotland, we deem 8 to be the age at which children understand it. In North Carolina, it's 6. In India, 7. Just because Poland sets it at 17 doesn't mean that everyone else should.

What do you mean, influence politics? Adults don't really influence politics much either (the majority).

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

You have to go to Kielce (syzorki) ;) ;)

News / Should 16-year-olds in Poland vote? [58]

Run the whole gamut of consent and maturity ages and you'll see that there is a wide disparity. In Scotland, the age of criminal responsibility is 8. If that can be allowed for so many years, surely 16-year olds should be able to vote.

Also, adults can't raise the issue of superior knowledge so easily. Many adults are clueless when it comes to politics (religion or just about anything else for that matter). The up-and-coming youth represent a generation that's ever more cluey.

Real Estate / Options for dealing with dishonest landlord in Poland [36]

Tell him to get knotted, go with the advice above. I remember my friend was asked to pay 8000PLN for the clean-up of mildew which had caused some damage. He was leaving the country anyway and did just that. He was not responsible for it. Another case of a disgruntled wan*er looking for money that's not his.

News / Poland's Vietnamese: A tough transition but they're surviving [31]

Exactly, 50k is not 1mill. I think most Poles appreciate their presence. If not, they should.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

Isn't that just the beauty of humanity, that we can think differently? :)

Some Poles were welcomed and some weren't, Exiled.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

It would be libel if it was in writing. You are a laugh, TIT. I stand by that one (thinks of Joe Pesci) :) :) Nothing libellous, just observation.

The same applies for the rest. You can prove me wrong if you want. I'm not flaming at all.

I just don't think you are making valid and coherent points, that's all.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

What way of thinking would that be? It's not my way of thinking at all, I just don't get the points you are trying to make. A good teacher will ask their students to say sth in an easier way or put it in context. Sometimes I feel that you have sth in mind that others can't access and I'd appreciate more clarity in your posts. Thanks!

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

Well said Greg! Unfortunately, Tusk is part of that 99% ;) ;) but the returning Poles do/would care.

TIT, what are you wittering on about now? Half of what population? You are like a loose cannon with little coherence.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

You have free will, TIT, use it as you will and react accordingly. Poles have a right to be there under EU Law and I've said it many many times on different threads. So, what's your point??????

Ignore them, that's what I'd do.

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]

I would say from discussions with quite a few Poles that there is an imperialistic streak in them. The way they describe old efforts in Lithuania and Ukraine makes me wonder.

The Poles did a lot in the war, need we say more?

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

What do you know about it? I had Polish neighbours for years and they never had any problems in Scotland. Many Poles were happy working in the harbours up north. They had work and were well received by the Scots. That was in the decades following WWII. During WWII, my grandad has told me much about how the Poles were paraded as great helpers/pilots and how the local lassies wanted to get to know them. Nobody said a bad word about them. So, where are your tales?

Betraying? How defensive of you. I never said anything about it, I was talking about Poles making free choices to take up employment in the UK. It is you who felt betrayal inside and it is you that has to live with that. I'm happy and respectful in Poland so what's your point?

Why all the talk of fault? I'm talking about realities and saying that sometimes you have to look inside for answers. It's all too easy to pass the buck.

Nika, I know of many Scottish people that live for much more than money. Many of the materialists in my home city are foreigners who come to take up positions in the oil&gas industry. They work for international corporations and don't follow the traditional Scottish ethos of being thrifty. Want the connection with thrift? They are spendthrifts.

UK, Ireland / Time for the Poles from the UK to go home [437]

Don't Henkel make detergents? ;) ;) Anyway TIT, I've put it plainly to you above and that's just the reality of it. Contest it if you will.

Life / You are Polish if... [433]

True enough, Bev. There was an old goat who couldn't accept the fact that I was waiting nicely for sb to put sth in the overhead compartment. She started to maneuver to get past me and I swiftly moved across and told her, 'nie bądz chamem'. She was offended but I think I taught her a lesson there. She just humphed and waited. I have no tolerance for hurried people, this rat race is a nonsense and, anyway, doesn't apply to airplanes ;) ;)