News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


I feel duty bound to point out that we had a referendum in Ireland. Unlike Poland, the Irish constitution cannot be changed without the consent of the people. In Ireland for example you couldn't have the kind of changes being proposed to the judicial system in Poland.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


The level of terrorist attacks in those countries is very low. However due to their immigration policies, those countries have left themselves open to being used as a base for extremists. In any case neither attacker in the Finland or Sweden incidents fitted the bill of religious extremism, one was an economic migrant and the other a rejected asylum seeker, both angry people with an axe to grind.

This thread is about court reform so if you want to carry on the discussion you'd better do it in off-topic or another more suitable place.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

I find it really astonishing that people don't seem to see where this is heading. When you take into account the fact that all the military top brass were replaced almost overnight with PIS supporters, shortly after they came to power, that should give a clue. Firstly this kind of overnight change doesn't happen in democracies and secondly once a new government essentially takes over the army and the courts..........add to that JK saying that he expects PIS to remain in power for twenty years. He didn't say HOW that's to be achieved, he didn't say it will be done through elections. Oh but wait, it will, because we also have 'electoral reforms' about to be enacted which also take the form of sacking everybody and replacing them.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


Of course. The reforms are not about ensuring justice for the ordinary man in the street and a fair court system. They are part of a purge in the good old Stalinist tradition. The politicization of the judiciary ensures that PIS can pursue their various vendettas. Tusk will definitely be in their sights. When he returns to Poland after his EU role finishes, he will be charged regarding Smolensk (or if not that, anything else they can trump up), found guilty and imprisoned. That's my belief. Poland is going to hell in a hand-basket and by the time it gets there it will be far too late for the electorate to do anything about it.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


Yes but that's also basically politics too, or rather social conditions, because social conditions arise as a result of government policy. There's really two issues here. The people who fund Islamic terror and the fools who do the dirty work and carry out the attacks. Their motives are rather different.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Don't be silly. Acts of terrorism that kill innocent civilians are despicable regardless of who is perpetrating them. However terrorism has its roots in politics and that's a fact. Religion is frequently used as an excuse for terrorist acts but politics is the reason. In Islamic states where the two are one it's hard to make that distinction but when Islamic terrorists attack the west it has nothing to do with religion, it's politics.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

It's quite possible to have a country that's both Christian and at the same time a liberal democracy, with a Muslim population and zero Islamic terror attacks. Ireland has taken refugees from Muslim countries for decades now and we've never had an Islamic terror attack (God between us and all harm, to use the old Irish phrase). In fact Ireland is one of the safest countries in Europe, (officially safer than Poland). It's not the presence of a Muslim population that causes Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks, it's a nation's involvement in international affairs and in particular their military alliances. You don't have to be a right wing, authoritarian regime to protect yourself from Islamic terror attacks.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Ok, so the word from the Commission is as follows:

"Poland's proposed court overhaul poses serious risks to all parts of the country's judiciary".

News / Poland's Party of Law and Justice (PiS) reconstruction [38]

Morawiecki was chosen as Her Nibs' successor by the K Man himself so..........politics is a joke really. The party needs an image change now, the Old Mother Hubbard routine from Beata has served its purpose and now Morawiecki is being trotted out as the more modern, dynamic 'business' face of the nation. The K Man is satisfied that he's got the most important groundwork done in the key areas such as military, judicial system and electoral reforms. He's also managed to alienate all the most influential members of the EU and he's got the patriotic fervour pot nicely simmering. So now he can move on to stage II which is attempting to present Poland as an economic powerhouse blah blah. His Nibs is the ideal face of that. All a load of old cobblers.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Today the Venice Commission will issue the two opinions we've been awaiting. It'll be interesting to see their conclusions. The government never responded to the draft opinions they sent them.

Love / I dont get why you guys think are too young for sex even though aoc in Poland is ok [40]


I think it must be a long time since you visited Praga. The whole place has been 'gentrified' as they say in the UK. It's quite safe to go there any time, walk round it at night etc. Socially, it's very much a mix and has quite a burgeoning middle class.

News / Poland's Party of Law and Justice (PiS) reconstruction [38]


The real business is conducted not in those formal meetings and sessions of parliament but in the networking that goes on in the corridors. English is obviously the one language that most MEPs have in common so that's the one you need for doing the old diplomatic rounds. However that aspect of the EU is something that PIS has held itself aloof from. I don't think they fully comprehend the value of it but that's how Ireland got the EU on board with their 'no hard border' deal for Brexit. You have to be able to connect with people on a one-to-one basis and make 'friends'. I'm afraid PIS lack that skill.

News / Poland's Party of Law and Justice (PiS) reconstruction [38]


Yes but now she's served her purpose and so she's discarded, what would you expect from PIS. However, ironically, in view of their attitude to the EU, I believe that they want to give her some role in Europe. I think she may stand as an MEP in the next European election in 2019. Apparently she's been taking intensive English lessons - with whom I wonder............... However that's a long time in politics and with a fickle public it's an eternity. I think she's had her fifteen minutes of fame.

News / Roman Polanski accused of unlawful sex with a minor [403]

Well I believe he's at least in this thirties because he's constantly complaining that although he looks much younger than his age he still can't get young women to notice him. Then apparently he posted some photos of himself here, I didn't see them but I saw a post where another member, can't recall who, was telling him that he looks forty-ish.

News / Roman Polanski accused of unlawful sex with a minor [403]

This whole thing is thoroughly disgusting. A man in his thirties flooding the forum with fantasies about sex and pornography featuring teenage 'sluts'. Why is this stuff not deleted by the Mods? It's not just on this thread either but the guy starts threads about it and has goes into the most graphic detail. If I stumbled across this forum as a potentially new member, I would run a mile.

There are places on the internet for people who want to read about and discuss these topics and this isn't one of them. This is a general discussion forum about Poland and whilst that could encompass a debate about sex workers or moral issues, there is a big difference between that and some perv giving us a detailed account of his sexual fantasies and encounters.

He's posting as a guest so he can't be suspended and could always return anyway as other suspended members have done, but why not simply remove this filth from the forum and throw it where it belongs.

News / Confessions of a paid hater / troll in Poland [42]


Now what nationality are you I wonder, clearly not a native English speaker.

Travel / Białowieża National Park in Poland [461]

It will be interesting to see whether PIS will now stop the logging in view of the impending fines. We'll know within two weeks anyway if not before.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Before the vote Guy Verhofstadt said:

"If the Polish government continues to breach the rule of law & European values, financial sanctions will have to follow. However, we must find a way not to punish citizens for the wrongdoings of their government".

and after the vote:

"We will never accept any sanctions against Polish citizens themselves. It is better to divert EU money from the Polish government directly to the Polish civil society, to Polish cities, to Polish people who must never be the victims of Kaczynski´s reactionary agenda".

So that sounds fair enough. I suppose the EU will simply deal directly with various community and possibly private institutions to try to fund things at grass roots level. Could work out very well for Polish people.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

I found it! It's a website called votewatcheurope.eu

There's also a very interesting article on there about the most influential MEPs in the Parliament. This is the kind of thing that EU citizens should be reading.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

They voted against it of course by about a two thirds majority. After all we know that the Hungarians are very firmly on Poland's side - at present. That may well change. Orban is a slippery customer and in the end he will act in Hungary's interests, not Poland's. I'm afraid I can't remember where I found that information, I was just tootling around the internet while I was having a cup of tea. I'll see if I can locate it again later when I have time.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Here are the stats for which of the Slavic EU members voted in favour of the resolution against Poland:

Czech Republic - 15 votes to 3
Slovenia - all in favour
Lithuania - 6 votes to 3
Slovakia - 6 votes to 2
Croatia - 9 votes to 1
Bulgaria - 14 votes to 1

Poland itself voted in favour of the resolution by 27 votes to 22.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


And even if they had, the Polish population is apparently still strongly in favour of remaining in the EU. There's no reason to imagine that they would support leaving the EU and throwing in their lot with a shambolic pan-Slavic union of some kind.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Now here's an interesting bit of news from two points of view, firstly another example of the present Polish government being out of step with, in this case, all its fellow-members and secondly from the point of the veto. It's regarding the Doha Agreement on emissions which was voted for by everyone but Poland and has therefore never been ratified.

"We will discuss on Thursday to see if we can ratify as 27," announced Climate Commissioner Miguel Arias Cañete on Wednesday at a press conference.

Apparently it is' legallly possible to override the Polish opposition'.

This could set a legal precedent for overriding Hungary's veto on sanctions against Poland.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

This is not a question of obeying Germany's diktats. That's both a distortion and a gross over-simplification but I don't have the patience to explain why. However, the stability of the Union derives from the ability of the member states to take care of their own individual interests whilst at the same time avoiding outright conflict and confrontation in the process of doing so. It's about discussion, compromise, building relationships, diplomacy and persuasion.

As to business being lost etc, firstly no existing multi-national company is going to pull out of Poland overnight. No large company who had planned an investment in Poland due to take place in the next year or two will pull out either unless they are prepared to sustain large losses because preparing the ground for such an investment costs a lot of money. However, the present Polish government sends a clear message that they make up the rules as they go along and change them at their whim and also that an investor who comes to Poland on the basis that it's a member of the EU, may well find a couple of years down the road that's no longer the case. Now that is in itself is an over-simplification and only scratches the surface but it gives you an idea.

All of this trouble started with Hungary, the EU Commission let that slide and that emboldened Poland. The difference is that Hungary is clever enough to stay just within the bounds of what's acceptable and thus avoid Article 7. That's because Orban has no great political passion, except to be in power but PIS are zealots, evangelicals, men with a mission led by a maniac. They've now lost the plot totally and I can't see a way back for them at present. They're simply unable to talk or negotiate so they're lost.

As far Ireland's interests go, it's just as I said. It's against all of our interests as EU members - and that includes the nation of Poland - to have an EU filled with divisions, open conflict and in-fighting.


I'm afraid Dolno that would only perpetuate a lot of ill-feeling and the place would possibly become a rallying point for extremists.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

The current difficulties with Poland and Hungary undermine the union as a whole and destabilize it. That's not good news for the rest of us.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

The only thing I really don't like about the EU, and never have done, is that Ireland used to be a very 'human' sort of country and it's become increasingly 'official' like other European countries have pretty much always been, regardless of the EU. However that's a reflection, not just of membership of the EU, but of the changing world as a whole, where you can't be quite as relaxed as you could once upon a time.

In what way do you feel the EU is headed in the wrong direction Maf?

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

For those who are interested here's the text of the resolution:

not to proceed the new laws unless they fully guarantee the independence of the judiciary

to implement all EU Commission and Venice Commission recommendations in full,

to comply with the EU Court of Justice order to "immediately suspend large-scale logging" in the ancient Białowieża forest,

to respect the right of freedom of assembly,

to strongly condemn the "xenophobic and fascist march that took place in Warsaw" on Saturday, 11 November 2017, and

to take a firm stand on women's rights, by providing free and accessible contraception without discrimination and making emergency contraception available without medical prescription.

As one can see, the issue of migration is not mentioned at all. This is not about 'bureaucrats forcing migrants on Poland' but Poland's peers and partners in the EU, their colleagues and fellow governments in Europe being concerned about Poland's continual flouting of EU values and norms which we in the union generally share. We all differ because we're individual nations but none of us would ignore an EU court order such as the one on logging. Instead we would comply with it and then do our utmost to get into talks immediately to resolve things.

It seems to me that PIS likes the idea of 'a' European Union but not 'the' actual European Union. However, they will find that it will not be possible to force through reforms simply by refusing to observe existing EU norms. I, as a life-long citizen of the EU don't want to see my country's interests undermined by recent accession countries and many others share my feelings.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Yes, but a member state under 'reasoned proposal' is not allowed to sit on the Council for the purposes of voting/decision making.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

The Council needs to decide by unanimity and the Parliament needs to give its consent. The EU as a community doesn't believe in using such measures, except as an absolute last resort. That's why they've faffed around for so long.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


No, a mechanism exists by which they can trigger both simultaneously. They're both at exactly the same stage at present so in theory it can be done.


They're still in the process of 'doing' something.