UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


Ah man are you still missing the target?

If you are going to be a working class hero know who to target, its not foreign workers it’s the so called successful intelligent class. The same gombeen men who have been fleecing the people and country for decades, they have been selling the same old rope for years; success and intelligence. Success in this context means successful in business, intelligence means how to market snake oil. What the dot dot dot do business or marketing men know about running a country nothing.

Fascists like yer man above thrive because of a lack of ideas and a general fear or dislike for poor people, not poverty but poor people.

Slating people because they are rich is the politics of envy and envy is not a good founding for anything.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


Open a history book but read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat first then do a bit of reading.
Seriously this is stuff for 16 year olds, very basic knowledge.

Study / Secondary education in Poland [20]


Oops I misread that the first time sorry.


Is streaming common in schools, I think this is part of the problem for failing students second only to lack of parental engagement. There are a lot of reasons pupils fail to pass exams ability being the last.

Study / Secondary education in Poland [20]

Would a graduate from a private school have better employment chances in the open market. Would the private schools be seen as better in some way?

I suppose what I'm getting at is, are there good schools and bad schools. Do people move to access better schools? How do employers see the schools or level of academic achievement?

Study / Secondary education in Poland [20]


I really an not being funny here but if you were the lead on the committee how could the standards vary?
Is there no central examining body to ensure uniformity?


I'm aware of that in my work and it is infuriating.

Study / Secondary education in Poland [20]


Didn't know that, where do those at private school take the matura?


That would be sad....I think, Are there apprenticeships available?

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


I'd go with that, I think he did it for money.

Having said that


Here I beg to differ, both my daughters sail and the younger fences doesn’t cost me more than about £100 per year, cheaper than most sports club. Just pay the club fees and use their opis, they provide the safety boat life jackets etc. OK when they get older it will cost but not too much.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


This may be off topic if it is I apologise.

I know someone whose Mother was made a widow cos her husband was hanged in South Africa (she remarried) He grew up in England married my best mates sister in law live in Dublin now.

The man, a white South African was hanged for treason he swore an oath when he joined the military there. He was young and that’s what you did growing up in South Africa

I worked with the brother of the last man to be sentenced to death in the North of Ireland (Full exclosure: the guy I worked with was interned and later held on remand for a long time) even though he knew the sentence would be commuted the effect destroyed his life He didn’t do what he was convicted of but didn’t defend himself because of his oath, He though he was doing the right thing at the time.

The brother I knew said to me on more than one occasion that when you are young and being attacked you will do anything especially if, and I quote "An older man puts a gun in your hand". These people took oaths, binding oaths, yet were allowed to just live normal unimpeded lives.

Treachery is not just breaking an oath or if you want betraying your country it also goes the other way if you take an oath you expect the other party to also honour the oath.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


The Catholic Church certainly knew the way it was going to go before the "Split" in 1936. Their previous collaboration can be compared to the present scandal over child rapist priests; protect the institution not the faith. Reformed churches had a much more principled approach in general.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


They are professional soldiers from military colleges, military students in civilian universities and NCOs who have risen through the ranks.

There are certain professions in Poland that grant officer status if called up. I know this is true for the Navy but not sure about other branches of the armed forces I supposed they are covered by the reserve force.

Professional armies are sometimes called mercenary armies usually by communists and non regular forces.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Have you still time to edit that?


Fight back and you're a terrorist do nothing and you give legitimacy to the state, so says the law?

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


You would be called a terrorist like so many others, law is on the side of the occupier. law is on the side of the powerful.....always.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Nice post Jonny

Have you just logged on again like me

Off-Topic / Book: Gogol's Taras Bulba [37]


Yes, it was a colony.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Jonny it’s an opinion
I've no wish to go wading through treacle over international law or the status of Tibet. I view it (Tibet) as an occupation and many countries have a convenient unspoken policy ignoring the reality.

The nonsense of China's seat at the UN should illustrate that the only thing that matters is might not law.
The guy with the biggest gun wins. I don’t like kow towing to the school yard bully which is what international relations is all about.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Not really, Tibet part of China controlled or occupied? The legal argument crashes there as does the recognition argument. Kosova, Parts of Georgia, Kashmir... depends on which part of non existent international law you decide to agree with.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

"You can claim" you have the ability to claim. Do you deliberately misunderstand in an attempt to side track any discussion?

Back to Poland, there were undoubtedly a lot of non party members happy with the situation, the numbers lifted out of absolute poverty were huge, people had work and something affordable to eat which was not always the case before, housing was also better. A lot of party members only functioned to serve themselves unfortunately that’s part of human nature.

Of course I have no evidence to suggest how many were
a)Happy with their jobs
b)Happy with their food
b1)sometimes
b2)a lot of the time dot dot dot

Etc until ground down with the boredom of an undiscriminating contrary mind.

Edit
You are right, always will be right and always have been right. (Of course I have no evidence for that. I mean what is right? Does it mean politically right and what do I mean by politically? Politically with a capital p or small p. is it the same as correct................................................ )

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

Wading through treacle on a Thursday afternoon who would have thunk it. You can claim that there was no Soviet communist control over any other communist party but I assume you know that that is ridiculous. The Provo Gov was formed partly from elements of the one in London not sanctioned by it. Stalinist parties were not exactly well known for their habit of reaching decisions by means of consensus, are you suggesting a free and equal negotiation took place?

The London Gov thought it was representing the Polish Nation as the mandate they held from the second republic wasn’t superseded by another. That was as deluded a position as claiming that Provo Gov Negotiations were fair.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


More than that Churchill was a rabid anti communist with delusions of his own genius which he demonstrated while first lord of the Admiralty.


The fig leaf the Provisional government provided was imposed by the Soviets. The Communist party had final say over who did what in that body and as we know the ultimate decision lay in Moscow.


"Not in an official capacity" so they were not representing anyone except themselves.


And 7 in 8 were not members of the PZPR AKA The Communist party the one controlled from Moscow, not a bunch of pre war splitters.
The Non Party Communists who you hint at would be very difficult to count. So it’s reasonable to assume my interpretation of the figures you provided is correct with an acceptable margin of error of course.

Designating Independents as Communist or others as communist is a subjective thing to be doing that has no place in a rational examination of history.


Well we will never know cos it didn’t happen. It was a nonstarter as I said

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


A fig leaf Harry, a box ticking exercise nothing to discuss, perhaps you would like to demonstrate how it was otherwise.


Just using the figures you provided if we are basing the numbers on party membership in the 1970s; perhaps the zenith of PRL would be a good point to take a snapshot. Alternatively we could take the McCarthy approach but that would be entirely unhelpful.


Operation unthinkable was always a non starter the first death rattle of a dying Empire, the US made them see sense.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

You could ask why in a country where 7 out of 8 people (87.5%) were non communist what forces kept the Communists in power. Was the regime held in place by the threat of military intervention from the USSR? Why is that not an occupation?

What makes a country governed in this way not subject to the will of a foreign country?


The allies couldnt do a thing militarily nor did they have a moral leg to stand on as they were occupying many lands themselves.
Your right that's why it's disputed.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


I really dont know how I missed this earlier, sorry.
Seriously Harry!


Ah come on man.

Edit


That’s a big leap

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

This does beg the questions why it lasted so long and when does a government becomes legitimate.
Controlling the food supply, housing, education and employment are all tools used to control a population especially one that hasn’t given its consent.
People did what they thought best to advance themselves. There is from necessity a degree of collaboration in any illegitimate system people can't be dammed for that nor can they be used to provide retrospective legitimacy.

The system was imposed by an other country that ensured it remained, that is occupation.

The point about the Baltic States is that these "clearly defined rules" were created to provide legitimacy. Quoting a textbook definition is entirely unhelpful, global international law is based upon precedent and as there is no supreme binding court to interpret and create precedent that role has been taken by the Security Council which is not unbiased.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


They were annexed while under occupation.


No they were not, Until the modern era recognition of a particular entity was dependant solely upon recognition by a larger power in effect Britain or France and to a lesser extent the Ottoman Empire. This was based upon military might, a kind of rule by the law of conkers. The League of Nations was the first attempt to codify international law in effect giving rights to smaller nations this body was founded by colonial powers just as the UN was.


A puppet government, a Quisling state like Norway, described by the Allies as occupied.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


They did but were not recognised and in practice were an irrelevance. The two post war "entities" that were recognised were imposed, there is no therefore about it.



The USSR exercised their ability to allow dissent, they waved the stick as they saw fit. That's why they all collapsed once that threat was removed.


Which is why they never occupied the Baltic states.....a convenient unspoken truth.
They made the rules to suit themselves.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


There is a guy on here who usually says something along the lines of
"Instead of responding to something I said you responded to something I didnt say"


The satellite states were given as much freedom to manoeuver as the Soviets allowed.


Thankfully the world is not run by teachers or milk monitors.

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]


Jonny that is the same logic that allows one to use the phrase

"Not in an official capacity".

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

I know exactly what occupation means; having a political system imposed upon you, reinforced by military power that fluxuates in strength with time and events coupled with the threat of remedial action. I don’t see what's twisted about that logic?

Surely you are not suggesting the post war elections were fair and free.

Recognising each others foibles is part of a good marriage the UN is one such marriage.

Edit


Harry get real, you'll be typing about the Prieure de Sion next

History / Would you classify the Poland's Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ? [221]

We are talking about Poland which was run by Polish people in a multi party system with Russian troops barracked as part of a military alliance there is nothing there is suggest occupation in fact it was recognised by most if not other states.

Is that what you are saying?
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It is a definition the British were happy to use for Norway in the second war but interestingly not for Iceland.


I wouldn’t have described British logic as twisted.


Why would they want to? The presence of foreign troops doesn’t mean occupation, uninvited troops usually does.
Britain invited the US to the UK Poland didn’t invite the Soviets.
The post war Polish governments were imposed by the Soviets i.e. puppet regimes.


Not really the colonial powers that created the UN were not going to cut their own throats surely you are not going to deny the colonial nature of the big 5?

Realising the reality of their (in)abilities to influence each other they recognised the de facto spheres of influence so The UK, France and The USA (Plus a host of smaller colonial states) recognised Soviet Satellite states (Occupied East Europe among other places) and the Soviet union recognised de facto western colonialism by sending ambassadors.