UK, Ireland / How might Britain`s withdrawal from EU affect Poles there and here? [474]


1. There's a big difference between London and small towns and cities in respect of eastern european immigration; in London we're more laid back about being an international city, our economy is booming, property is being sold off-the-book etc. I don't underestimate the cultural impact a large number of EEs will have on a small, close-knit town and Gillian Duffy was right to voice her concerns to Brown.

2. On my last development site the contractors had (amongst many others) 2 Albanians, a Romanian paving gang and a lad from Moldova. They were referred to collectively as 'the Poles'. In fact, just about anyone from EE gets lumped in as 'Polish' - many aren't

3. OK, there are cultural differences. They don't understand our habit of catching massive Carp and then putting them back in the water, or of not eating docile swans that waddle towards them. And free from the threat of arrest and imprisonment (4,000 currently in jail in Poland for this offence) they delight in London in cycling whilst drunk. Drinking vodka on the bus at 6.30am just because it's cold is also not widely understood here. These are minor quibbles and often cause more laughter than grief.

4. They graft. They turn up each day. They're not servile - they can answer back, which is good. And they have a sense of humour and like a beer, which is better. They're enterprising - and a recent academic study showed that they pay more in tax to the UK than they take in public services.

5. They don't have to like us, or our way of life. They're here to earn money and we employ them because they're both good and cheap.

6. Brown was mentally ill and saw demons everywhere he looked. Good riddance.

On the whole, I think we've both got a decent bargain.

History / Origins of Poland national differences? [41]

Yes - absolutely correct. We Western euros - particularly R1b1b2s - came originally from the Caspian Sea / Central Asia about 20,000 years ago, reaching the Caucasus about 10,000 years ago, whilst you R1as originated in Southern Russia about 21,000 years ago

So yes, despite the stereotypes about 'asiatic' Russians, we westerners are actually the asiatic ones and the Russins are actually Europeans .... haha I love genetics

History / Origins of Poland national differences? [41]

Haha! No, it's not the prevalent Norwegian haplogroup at all - see



I'm not seriously concerned about it at all - just suggesting that the racial mingling between the Red Army and 2m German women may actually have produced a measurable result - but there's not even enough evidence to prove that, so it remains an open question.

History / Origins of Poland national differences? [41]

Ah! Now I've found data that really is interesting

Germans, speaking Germanic West IE language:

Germany generally:- R1b 50% R1a 6.2%
Germany Berlin only - R1b 23% R1a 22%

Which is a substantial difference, and could support my first point. But as I say, since we don't know what Berlin's figures were before 1945 we'll never know.

History / Origins of Poland national differences? [41]


I think you're confused about the science. R1b is common across Europe but particularly Western Europe - nearly all of it in the form R1b1a2. In contrast R1 and particularly R1a1a is prevalent in much of central and eastern Europe; there is a sharp increase in R1a1 and decrease in R1b1b2 as one goes east from Germany to Poland (Kayser et al 2005).

The authors write "We suggest here that the pronounced population differentiation between the two geographically neighbouring countries, Poland and Germany, is the consequence of very recent events in human population history, namely the forced human resettlement of many millions of Germans and Poles during and, especially, shortly after World War II" They found a resulting genetic border between Poland and Germany that closely resembles the course of the political border between both countries.

What we're lacking of course is Haplogroup samples pre-dating 1945 to make valid comparisons. So neither you nor I can assert with any certainty what is and what isn't the effect of occupation or of post war re-settlement. But I'm sure someone is working on it.

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History / Origins of Poland national differences? [41]


The occupation of Berlin from 1945 revealed an essential difference between France and the Soviet Union on the one hand and the UK and US on the other. The issue was fraternisation. Both French and Russians, from ancient experience, believed the conqueror would lessen the future threat from the conquered by implanting their own DNA in the wombs of the occupied peoples, thus the Russians were ordered to, and the French troops encouraged, to 'fraternise' with as many German women as possible. In contrast, the UK and US tried to impose strict penalties on any troops found in a relationship with a German woman.

The threat this racial mixing poses goes very deep, as witnessed by the dreadful penalties imposed in liberated France, Belgium and Russia on women who had slept with the German invader. Nor is this ancient history - in the recent Bosnian war, rape was again a sanctioned weapon against the occupied as the victors sought to implant their DNA in the wombs of the enemy's women.

It would be fascinating to see DNA research in present-day Prussia to see just how much Russian genes have diluted those of the native population over the years of occupation.

News / Poland is the source of horsemeat in burgers? [169]

There's a good side to all this; the use of slurry or mechanically recovered meat (MRM) from beef carcasses risks inclusion of parts of the spinal cord - the high risk area for BSE prions. So great is the risk that the USDA has banned beef slurry altogether in the US - but still permits up to 20% pork slurry in hot dogs.

Horse isn't a risk for BSE - so the use of horse filler rather than beef filler is actually a healthier option ;)

News / Poland is the source of horsemeat in burgers? [169]


As I understand it, the horsemeat was all found in 'filler'. Filler is a meat powder from blasting carcass bones under high pressure to remove all traces and scraps of meat sticking to the bones after de-boning, then removing water from this slurry. The cheaper the burgers, the less ground beef and the more 'filler' they contain. It drips out as a grey goo when they're cooking.

More importantly, many could be innocent; who can tell horse bones from cow bones? And when the carcass slurry is dried down it's just a grey mush that no-one can identify by sight or smell as being one meat or another - only DNA testing will reveal its source

UK, Ireland / How might Britain`s withdrawal from EU affect Poles there and here? [474]

While it's true that the most visible Poles in Britain are the tradesmen, construction workers and those in the hospitality industry, these are probably the workers that Poland can afford to lose, at least temporarily. A bigger problem I think is the 'free rider' problem and global professional drag. British doctors and nurses are queueing up to leave for the US, where they can earn many times their British salary and enjoy exceptional standards of living. A cousin of mine who is in her first year of medical school here told me over Christmas that she's leaving for the US as soon as she's finished her clinical training. In their place come Polish doctors and nurses, who can earn many times their Polish salary ...

Repeat this across the professional categories and the net effect is that the poorest nations are bearing the cost of education and training whilst the richest are enjoying the benefits. And who takes the place in Poland of the skilled Polish doctors and dentists who leave to work in the UK or Germany? Ukrainians? Turks?

Whatever new relationship the UK seeks with the EU, I'm pretty sure it will include free movement of labour. I think many of our public services would collapse without it.

Food / What made in Poland produce would you recommend [110]

Tesco herring

With rye bread, for my lunch today

UK, Ireland / How might Britain`s withdrawal from EU affect Poles there and here? [474]


Insular? Yes, but European also. In pre-easyJet days there was once a newspaper headline - "Heavy fog in the Channel; Europe cut-off" which illustrates our Anglocentric viewpoint.

But everything we are, our art and architecture, our sacred and profane beliefs, our science and culture, industry and scholarship are all rooted in a common European identity. A learned person can stand in Krakow, Norwich, Florence, Heidelberg or Antwerp and see the same early and undeveloped application of Vitruvius to buildings that heralded the same Renaissance, and likewise the first and second Enlightenments reached across the Channel westwards just as they reached eastwards into Poland. Similarly, you could step into any English church and hear the people proclaim the same Nicene Credo as heard in every Catholic church from Porto to Poznan. Our arts and culture, music and painting fed from each other in an interchange of ideas and innovations. From the earliest days our trade with the Hanseatic ports and the Baltic brought our wool to clothe the szlachta and returned with iron, resin and furs. So we're absolutely European in this sense.

But it's true we're most reluctant to give up our sovereignty to the EU. Perhaps it's because no-one has invaded us in a thousand years, that we have never in living memory been occupied. So we want all the advantages of a free market, of free movement for goods and workers, and we're even happy to pay into EU funds to build infrastructure like roads and bridges and ports that assist trade and movement in the newly-joined nations. But we look at Van Rumpoy and Barroso and shake our heads - the idea of such people governing us is an anathema.

UK, Ireland / Why are Brits so left-wing? [60]


Or, like our 19th Century Prime Minister, Palmerston, have a reputation as a Conservative at home and a Liberal abroad?

The British left would argue that most Brits aren't left-wing enough - we don't support the Scandinavian-style welfare state with high taxation, nor the French style of social protectionism and job security or the German compulsion for social-democratic consensus. However, most Brits of all political shades support a free, national health service - something most Americans regard as 'socialist'. Our comfort zone is somewhere around government spending at a third of GDP, and currently you're seeing a claw-back from the 40% level reached by the last left-wing government.

We're also, on the whole, incredibly tolerant. Our immigration is more in the US 'melting pot' pattern that gives everyone a fair go than the 'apartheid' of Turks in Germany or North Africans in France. Of course we've had the English catholic rather than the Latin catholic church setting the moral agenda for the last 450 years so we don't get too excited about people's sexual behaviour - and most of our Puritans left in the Mayflower in disgust, to morph into Sarah Palin and the Tea Party ...

Combine that with an affection for tradition and history, a love of 'fair play' and having a capital that is a truly international city and quite different from the rest of the country and I can understand why Americans think us left-wing.