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Posts by Piotr123  

Joined: 11 Sep 2010 / Male ♂
Last Post: 26 Nov 2020
Threads: Total: 3 / In This Archive: 1
Posts: Total: 54 / In This Archive: 40
From: Sweden, Stockholm
Speaks Polish?: Yes

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Piotr123   
18 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I know! The only thing I can do at this time is keep on asking questions.Tell us about some of those not-so-obvious factors that you know about, please.

I could write a book about it but I will try to give you some answers. I'm speaking generally from my experience in the international buy-to-let market; however I will also give my thoughts on the situation in big cities in Europe.

Firstly, it can be very hard to find people to rent out the apartment. In many hot markets the real estate agent might claim that the demand for apartments to rent is huge! The problem is that so is the selection of apartments to rent. Why, the developer might even give you a 6% a year rental guarantee but this is just nonsense because the demand is nowhere big enough.

In Spain renting out your holiday apartment is a hopeless enterprise because besides the low demand there are sometimes rules that prohibit you from even renting out the apartment. Brazil is a very hot market where there are many resorts that offer full rental management, although the developers giving rental guarantees just give empty promises because they cannot give such guarantees.

For example, in Natal the developers have spoken for years about a huge surge in tourism that is coming soon, always soon. The new airport was supposed to give tourism a huge boost. The problem? The old airport was not even at full capacity! The new airport was built for the world cup in Natal, not because of tourism demand.

The situation is the same in Spain, Portugal and Greece. People are also not going to rent apartments to spend their time in Egypt or Morocco. Another problem is the visa because even if you buy an apartment you cannot live as a resident in many countries. The most beneficial benefits are given in many countries in South America, giving you a residence permit for buying an apartment. Many of the countries also allow you to apply for citizenship only after a few years.

Why is this important? Because you will never be able to rent out your apartment in Montevideo from Montana, USA or wherever you live. The same problem applies to Poland regardless of Polish citizenship because you cannot rent out your apartment in Sopot in a practical way if you live on the other side of the world.

In many big cities in Europe you will not get good rental returns for the investment because the market caters to locals. Norway has among the highest GDP (gross domestic product) in EUrope and the rent for a one bedroom apartment in the city centre is about 800 euro. The average square meter price in Oslo is 6000 euro.

The square meter price is much lower in Poland, yet you will not get good rental returns there either. It could however be a good investment for the future if you buy the apartment and plan to live there. I do not know what the rules are in Poland but in many countries residential cooperatives have rules against renting out apartments. The reason for this is that the other residents do not want that someone buys an apartment in the building and never lives there, instead renting it out to different strangers that come and go.

You also need to keep an eye on the people you rent out the apartment to. Another problem is the wear to the apartment that will most likely require you to renovate the apartment if you plan to sell it later or live there yourself. This means that the little net profit you gain after the administration fees and taxes are paid will have vanished.

There are some cities in Europe such as London, Geneva, Paris or Moscow where you can actually make a lot of money if you can afford to buy a suitable apartment to rent out. Outside Europe the most expensive rental markets are Hong Kong and Japan. I think if you do some research you will initially come to the conclusion that the most profitable buy-to-let markets in gross profit margin in relation to the price of the apartment are developing countries such as Brazil, which is the reason why I think it was prudent to include information on that topic. Finally, one of the most important things to know is that many countries have a high capital gains tax, meaning that this will eat away your gross profit margin.
Piotr123   
17 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

so, a high end - 1mil. Can you rent it for 5K/mo?And again, are the utilities in owners name or the tenant turns them on?

I have a lot of experience in the international buy-to-let market and I can tell you that there are so many unknown factors that the reality will be completely different than you had planned for. The calculations are really good until you find out about all the factors that you hadn't anticipated.

Not that expensive, 30 - 45,000 PLN which is about 8,000 to 11,000 Euro roughly

Ah yes, I mixed things up! I must have inadvertently read it as a much higher number because I thought of my experience from from Tokyo where having your own garage space costs about 100,000 euro.
Piotr123   
17 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Two links to articals that may help you decide if the price of high end apartments are going to slide/crash. Whilst they refer to the market in Warsaw, Krakow is not that far behind.

I'm not interested to know if the prices are going to hit rock bottom, only whether it is a good time to buy an apartment now or not. I feel that I have gotten a good answer to that question, although the fact that apartments are sold unfitted was a rather unexpected turn.

Is it also correct that a garage space costs 30,000 euro? You seem to have a lot of insight into the topic, perhaps you know the average cost to fit a two bedroom apartment? A rough estimate is enough.
Piotr123   
16 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Do you mean that the apartment would have been priced at 2,500,000 PLN before the crisis? Otherwise it sounds extreme that it would be possible to haggle down the price by 40%. I must say though that the apartment looks very interesting.

There are many apartments in Warsaw, were the offer price are well above 1,000,000 EuroGood luck with the search.

Of course there are apartments priced much higher than 1,000,000 euro in Warsaw, however apartments at that price in Warsaw are most certainly luxury apartments.

It is my opinion that this thread is going way off-topic. Personally I think the people bickering should do it somewhere else. The participants have made it quite clear that they only continue the discussion to insult the other party.

I want this thread to be informative for other people who seek information on the topic of buying an apartment in Krakow, links to useful websites and answers to related questions.

Links for websites to search for apartments:

wbj.tabelaofert.com (new projects)
property-krakow.com (new projects and secondary market)

Information about prices:

The prices were in the region of 8,500 PLN per Sq Mtr,that was 3 months ago.

Does anyone have any experience to share about the "Pod Klucz" concept offered by Dom Development? domdevelopment.com.pl
Piotr123   
16 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I heard of apartments and houses being sold in an unfinished state in Poland, but I thought this was no longer the reality since long ago. For me the phenomenon seems like a contradiction as people buying expensive apartments are usually wealthy, and as such they are usually not adept at construction work unless they are engineers.. Donald Trump might know a lot about real estate but he certainly does not do the the construction work himself, instead leaving it to professionals.

How could such a person install the plumbing and do the electrical work in his new luxury villa by himself? In Poland he would even be required to build the stairs himself! Of course none of this is practically possible and instead he hires some professionals, right?

Buying an apartment from a reputable developer is considered a guarantee for the construction work to be of high quality. The developer could relinquish responsibility for any faults by claiming that the second party, the company hired by the buyer, is actually responsible for the faults. Of course that company in turn would relinquish any responsibility by claiming that the faults were there to begin with. The buyer would then be forced to pursue a legal battle for compensation.

I'm no expert in the field but I doubt one company could do all the finishing work, so the buyer would have to enlist the services of many different parties. The situation will then be even more complicated for the buyer. How could a layman be able to ascertain the quality of the work done by so many different parties? Even if only one of the companies hired is dishonest it could be very expensive to repair the damage done.

I don't know how the owner scheme looks in Poland as there are many different variants. In Sweden the buyer doesn't actually own the apartment, instead owning a share in the apartment building corresponding to the stake of his investment. The other apartment owners must therefore authorize any construction work done in the apartment. If the work is not well done then the apartment owner is forced to make amends.

Even if this is not the system in Poland then it should still be in the interest of the other apartment owners that the work done is of high quality. How can it be possible to make sure of that if each apartment owner is to finish the apartment at his own discretion? Perhaps he hires some dishonest company? In worst case he is a layman but does the construction work himself to save money.

The only worry with that ,is when it comes time to sell you will only get the same price as your neighbor. I visited a apartment about 10 years ago in Warsaw, the couple told me they had spent 100,000 Euro on their bathroom, it was big and very very nice, 10 years down the line, it is very dated and needs to be redone, so you could say money down the toilet. Both of the people were involved in real estate, you would have thought they had known better.

As for renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro, rich Swedish people are usually so cheap that they recycle bottles and cans for money. One of the richest people in the world, Ingvar Kamprad, drives around in a Volvo 240 GL from 1993! I think renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro is a "nouveau riche" phenomenon which is more rare in western Europe.

My opinion, it is a good time to buy quality apartments, that would have been significantly higher in price 18 months ago.

How much is it possible to haggle down the price if paying in cash instead of taking a mortage loan from the developer? That the apartment is not finished when I buy it is definitely a problem. I guess buying the apartment furnished is out the question then?

Piotr123, if you are going to Krakow, you may want to consider, asking someone who is based in Krakow,to assist you in your quest.

I have relatives in Krakow and I can speak Polish even if I'm quite rusty. Also, I think that I know the ropes well enough not to fall in the biggest traps as a "frajer".

Concerning the discussion about prices, even the really expensive apartments in Sweden are located in old, worn out buildings which are very cold. All the apartments in Sweden basically look the same on the outside. In fact, many apartments in ghettos can look much better on the outside than extremely expensive apartments in the city center of Stockholm.

What you pay for in Sweden is the address and location, nothing else. Apartments are so expensive in Sweden that many new developments have huge mortage loans and the apartment owner must pay for the mortage loan monthly in addition to his own mortage loan for the apartment. The consequence is that people can pay €800 monthly for an apartment they own! This is in addition to the possible mortage loan they have for the apartment itself.

If new developments did not have mortage loans then the price for the apartments would be so high that normal people could not afford it. The mortage amortization period can often be up to 100 hundred years! There are some apartments in the center of Stockholm with little or no loans, although such apartments can often cost up to 1 million euro or more.
Piotr123   
15 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I will give a report after my visit for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested in buying an apartment in Krakow. Also, I want to thank everyone for the advice you have provided me!
Piotr123   
14 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

High end can mean different things to different people, what is it you expect?

I'm looking to buy an apartment in a building of the same standard as the Garden Residence. The other projects you linked to seem interesting also. I will visit Krakow next week to try to see a selection of apartments. Do you have any other suggestions? It is important though that the apartment is centrally located.

Here is a link for new build apartments in Krakow.

Most of the projects are far from being completed, and I want the apartment to be ready by the end of this year.

The prices were in the region of 8,500 PLN per Sq Mtr,that was 3 months ago , I do not know what the pries are now,it could be more it could be less.

I know it is common for garage spaces to be sold in countries such as India, but I have never heard of it being done in Europe before. Is it possible to receive a passive income from the garage space? In India the property management company can rent out the garage space.

I find it hard to believe that the demand for garage space in Krakow is so high. In Stockholm it is usually not a problem to find a parking space in the city centre during peak hours. Now Tokyo, that is a different story! You cannot even own a car there without first having your own parking space.
Piotr123   
13 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Prices of what project ?

The only project mentioned in this thread! The project that you linked to.

Apparently its a secret. If you have to ask, you can't afford it. MY usual resposne is to look elsewhere, I never undertsand the logic of hiding the price of such a commodity.

No matter how much money one has, it is still prudent to make a good investment. I don't think that anyone with a different attitude could ever amass any larger sum of money for themselves. I highly doubt that the price is a secret.
Piotr123   
13 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

But the high end units are still out of reach and way too expensive. Who can afford this?Janek

What are the prices? I had planned to contact the developer to inquire about the prices.
Piotr123   
11 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

SeanBM

An important factor is what do you want to use the apartment as?

I hope to live there in the future. The apartment should also be a good investment for the future.

Hi Piotr123, I was down in Krakow for a while and there are three places I thought looked interesting.

Thank you for bringing that development to my attention! I could not find any development of such a high standard. The location seems very good also.
Piotr123   
11 Sep 2010
Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Hello,

I would like to buy an apartment in Poland and I'm wondering if the real estate prices are expected to slide? I'm particularly interested in centrally located high-end apartments in Krakow.