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Posts by Galloglaich  

Joined: 26 Aug 2010 / Male ♂
Last Post: -
Threads: Total: 3 / In This Archive: 3
Posts: Total: 36 / In This Archive: 36
From: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: Historical Martial Arts, military history, history in general

Displayed posts: 39 / page 2 of 2
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Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Arguing with history is pretty ridiculous, it is what it is mate.

They asked to become part of the Polish kingdom BB. It was a permanent shift from German to Polish rule. After the 13 years war the city of Danzig and the other West Prussian cities were part of Poland for the next three hundred years, until the Polish partitiion. They eventualy got seats in the Polish senate. They never asked to return to the rule of any German state.

As for their german city laws, independent cities off this type existed in the Holy Roman Empire as well and in many other parts of Europe. In the HRE these were called "Free Imperial Cities". Almost all of the significant Hanse cities had this status. Of course free cities also existed in Flanders, in Lombardy, in Switzerland etc..

There was more than one type of German, the Hanseatic cities were at least as far apart from the mentality of the Teutonic Order as your ideal of Germans and Poles were. That is why Hamburg and Lubeck refused to let Hitler speak in the 1930s

telegraph.co.uk/travel/citybreaks/5428909/Lubeck-The-town-that-said-no-to-Hitler.html

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Gdansk / Danzig ledthe Prussian Confederation which askedKing Casimir IV to join Poland in 1454 and allied with them against their former overlords in the Teutonic Order. The treaty was signed in Danzig. I'll quote from the wikipedia page since you like to use it as a reference:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Confederation#Establishment

"After about three decades of growing discontent, the Prussian leaders (see Prussian estates) organized themselves to oppose the rule of the order more effectively. On 14 March 1440, a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdańsk), Elbing (Elbląg), and Thorn (Toruń), founded the Prussian Confederation in Marienwerder (Kwidzyn). Several more towns joined on 3 April, although Bütow (Bytów) did not. In Danzig, the new members signed a document[1] which was kept in the archives of Thorn."

" Gabriel von Baysen and Johannes von Baysen, now leading the confederation, requested the protection of King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland. They also asked for, and received, a guarantee of their continued city rights and privileges for the gentry."

The same thing happened many times before with Hanse cities. Riga allied with the Lithuanians in 1297 to get out from the oppression of the (German) Teutonic Order.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis#Alliance_with_Riga

What Hanse towns went voluntarily to Poland???

All of the ones in Prussia, to start with. See the links above.

Are you confusing things here?

No I think you are a little confused about this period of history.

You really should read up about the Hanse....
Just in short...it was a GERMAN merchant organization....with GERMAN as official trade language under GERMAN law...barely were any non-germans allowed in.

It was a bit more compex than that....

And it was the
Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation...so, what do you think...

I think the HRE included subjects of every central European race, including Bohemians, Poles, Italians, Swiss, Flemmish, Frisians, Burgundians, Hungarians, Moravians, Wlachians and numerous others during it's history. More importantly, it's ruling class included Aristocrats from many other parts of of Europe including Spain, Bohemia, Hungary, Poland etc. etc.

I also don't think you know much about it. But that's ok, neither did I until I read a few books.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Bratwurst Boy
I wonder why so many millions of Poles then sought a better life in Germany over the centuries? In search for a better life!

Well, it seems to have gone both ways. You were claiming that these Prussian cities were German for hundreds of years, I'm pointing out that they fled German rule and joined Poland of their own initiative. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Of course governments and conditions changed over the course of 500 or 1000 years, some people fled in one direction or another from various catastrophes, but in the specific case you are referring to, these cities went to Poland voluntarily, by preference. (Just as other Hanse cities had done centuries before, even to the pagan Lithuanians)

Even as towns and territories had been under polish crown, the rule and law was all german...there wasn't any nationstate policy as we know it now.

The law was Hanse law and Lubeck law which was Holy Roman Empire law. Both were international and not exclusively German. Are you suggesting that the HRE was the same thing as Germany?

And at least as these territories had been under german rule the Pole wer allowed flourish there, not expelled like the Germans under polish rule!

Poles were allowed to flourish under the rule of the Teutonic Order? I think you are trying to make all Polish Governments bad and all Germans good... which is ludicrous, not to mention the Soviets were the ones who partitioned Prussia and moved the Germans out as you I think you know pretty well.

And now these towns and territories develop inside the EU again their own mixed style they lost during the time of borders and hostile nationstates.
That's the main reason Germans are quite satisfied with how it is and with the outlook.
It's a peaceful "back to the roots", as it once was and should be.

That sounds better than demanding "your" territory back or claiming that the Prussian cities were 100% German.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

I think the funny thing abot these Prussian towns which keep coming up over and over on this forum is that the Prussian cities themselves chose to be Polish, in the sense that they joined with Poland politically and militarily at their own instigation. It was clear they had more potential freedom within the Polish kingdom than within any of the local German states such as Livonia, Brandenburg, Pomerania etc. These "German" towns went on to fight a war against their own overlords, that most Germanic of institutions, the Teutonic Order, which they won with the help of the Poles, Czech mercenaries, and their own militias and privateer fleets. Ultimately these towns became part of Poland where they prospered as they had never done before, right up until the partition. I don't recall any records of Danzig or Torun asking to rejoin the HRE or Austria during this period.

It seems to me as a naive outsider that religion and ethnic bigotry has been an impediment to the whole region for centuries. Events like the 30 years war and WW II were catastrophes for all the people in the region, German, Ukranian, Polish, it reall didn't matter, civilians were massacred, robbed, raped, armies were annihilated and ground to nothing. It was a victory for the crows and the worms. Yes there is yearning for connection to the old Baltic cities, especially by relatives of the displaced, but most Germans I know have given up completely on the nationalist aggressive policies of the 20th Century, because they know this jingoism only led to catastrophe for their own people. I find more Americans actually fall for this kind of propagandistic rhetoric.

Free trade and local autonomy of some degree seems to work out better historically for the people than territorial jingoism and nationalism. Actually you could argue Europe has been worse off in some ways since the rise of the nation State. As long as people of different nationalities are allowed to live there what does it really matter which State ultimately has authority? Clearly it did not matter historically to the citizens of Danzig, Elbing, Torun et al that they were part of a Polish Kingdom, to the contrary, they sought it out in preference to having German masters who they found oppressive.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

No, although that one is very good too...

but I was referring to this one. Many HEMA practitioners have watched this clip (which only shows the second half of the fight)

youtube.com/watch?v=kx_vLz-DXjs

Whoever was the fight choreogropher for those films knew some real fencing techniques, and I don't mean the olympic / collegiate type of fencing, the old type which is for real.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

My understanding is that the Polish / Hanseatic city of Elbag / Elbing had a significant Scottish (as well as Irish and English) expat population from quite early due to the close trade relations with the British Isles, starting in the 15th Century when Elbag joined Poland as part of the Prussian Confederation and becoming well established by the 16th.

From the wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbl%C4%85g#Hanseatic_Elbing.htm

From 1579 Elbląg had close trade relations with England, to which the city accorded free trade. English, Scottish, and Irish merchants settled in the city. They formed the Scottish Reformed Church of Elbląg and became Elbing citizens, aiding Lutheran Sweden in the Thirty Years' War. The rivalry of nearby Danzig interrupted trading links several times. By 1618 Elbląg had left the Hanseatic League owing to its close business dealings with England.

interestingly Gdansk fought (and won) a war against England during the late 15th Century called the "anglo-hanseatic war"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Hanseatic_War.htm

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

Hi Ender,

Thanks for replying... Perhaps I veered to far into my own interests. I only mentioned that for context. My introductory post was way to long I was going to edit it down but the system wouldn't let me edit after I posted (or I couldn't see how to)

I already know people at Ringshule Wroclaw and have connections to Polish HEMA (Martial Arts) groups in Gdansk and Wroclaw, but I'm interested in talking to ordinary Poles outside of the HEMA scene, just to get a sense of perspective, particularly on Polish history.

My real reason for posting here is to learn some more general background on Poland from a Polish point of view. I have read some Polish history as written by English, American, German and even Russian historians, but I have read very little (other than Sienkiewicz) of Polish perceptions of their own history which has been written since the end of the Cold War.

Does that make sense? Anyway I started this thread for an introduction, I have some specific questions I'll get to after I read a few more threads and get a better sense of etiquette here.

G.
Galloglaich   
26 Aug 2010
History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

Hi, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Jean (Jan in Polish I guess?) I'm from New Orleans in the US. I do not speak a word of Polish (except maybe to say 'Thanks') and I cannot pronounce or even type most Polish names, a deficit I hope to rectify.

But I think I can relate to Poland in one sense. By American standards New Orleans is an old city (very young by European standards of course) is somewhat apart from the rest of the nation and not very understood or appreciated. We too, have been occupied by foreign governments, the French, the Spanish, the Americans, the Confederates, and the Americans again who we do not consider really the same as us, at best distant cousins. Also I think the terrain in the Baltic is something like a much colder version of our bayous and cypress swamps, though I know you lack alligators.

In the 1980s during the Cold War, I was stationed in Germany in the US army and we were supposed to think of the Eastern Europeans as our enemies, but I knew they in the same bind, young soldiers under the authority of political masters we did not understand.

I like Eastern European literature, particularly Polish and Czech. I have been reading Stanislaw Lem since I was about 14. I liked Jersy Kozinsky (especially "being there"). I am a big fan of the novels of Henryk Sienkiewicz and of the films made based on his novels. People tell me this is Polish nationalist propaganda but by American standards it is very accurate history; no American film even comes close to these films, even the ones done during the Communist era, in terms of showing ancient times close to what they were like. Krzyżacy is a more realistic depiction of Medieval warfare than any western film I've ever seen. The 'With fire and Sword' films were introduced to me by a friend in the Historical Fencing community who had spent some time in Poland. The Deluge is particularly well known in HEMA circles due to the famous saber duel scene, again one of very few accurate (if somewhat dramtic) depictions of European fencing in a modern film. What I love about these films is how well everyone dresses.

I think Eastern Europe in general and Poland in particular have been behind a veil of a language barrier and the propaganda of the Cold War and have been hidden from the history books of the English speaking world, which in the US means English history (with a little French history thrown in seen through an English filter). This makes the Medieval period seem quite boring to Americans since very little happened in England. My family were in the French resistance and I grew up with stories about the Polish pilots in the RAF and Polish agents who stole the Enigma code from the Germans. My family respected the Poles.

But I am not as much interested in WW II as I am interested in the history of pre-industrial Europe. Before Napoleon scared everyone into forgetting the past. Before the treaty of Westphalia created the modern nation State. Before the 30 years war ravaged the continent and made the scars of religious / ethnic conflict which are so hard to heal.

And though I have a keen interest in ancient times, I'm not a real big fan of religion, or of Aristocracy, or feudalism.

I'm interested in the art and science of the Renaissance, the independent trading cities. I'm interested in the confederations and republics, like the Lombard League, the Republic of Venice, the Swiss Confederacy, the United Provinces, and the Prussian Confederation and the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Cossacks. The Hussites. The Szlachta. These seem to me to point to another way of doing things, which can be found in pockets all over Europe.

Such pan-Europeanism may not be popular in Nationalist Europe I know, where people prefer to emphasize their differences due to all the baggage of recent history. But this is where I am coming from.

I'm also interested in pre-Christian European culture. In the Pagan religions of the Baltic, the Lithuanians, the Prussians, the Poles themselves. The times of the Kieven Rus and the Vikings.

I'm specifically interested in two subjects right now.

1) I'm doing a project based on the Medieval Baltic, specifically on the events surrounding the Prussian Confederation and the West Prussian Hanse cities joining with Poland in the mid 15th Century.

2) I'm into Historical Fencing as I said, and this is based on some very old martial arts manuals which were found or kind of rediscoverd in the 1990s. There are two major systems in HEMA, a "German" system based on German language manuals, and an Italian system based on Italian manuals, both pretty similar initialy. The "German" system was primarily founded by a guy called Lichtenauer, apparently, and was the focus of middle class burghers who had fencing clubs . But the interesting thing is, many of their activities took place in Eastern European cities such as Prague and Gdasnk / Danzig. In fact a list of the names of the early Masters, you can see many names which are from the East.

here is an example of a video from one of the Polish HEMA schools which have sprang up in the last ten years (you'll have to add the other standard parts of the web address due to the spam filter)

...

But it's hard to find out about any of this from within the US. I believe there is still an amazing amount of residual prejudice in the West toward Eastern Europe. When I first travelled to Prague ten years ago I half expected to find a dark, sooty village under a cloudy sky, overlooked by a castle on a stark hill ruled by Vampires with peasants toiling miserably in the mud. I was a little bit surprised to see a stunningly beautiful city full of striking women, excellent beer and amazing architecture. I thought I was open-minded for an American but it struck me how much I had been subject to propaganda myself, why is this so little known about in the Western media? But it reminded me of my own town in that sense.

I have come to the conclusion lately that there is too much cultural prejudice in the West, and too little understanding of Eastern European languages, to find out much of anything about the intriguing history I've seen glimpses of, especially in these areas where German and Polish (and Dutch, and Swedish, and Lithuanian, and Estonian, and Czech etc.) culture are so mixed together in such complex ways.

I'm hoping people here will forgive my ignorance, perhaps my misguided zeal, and Yank status, and help me gain some insight into this part of the world of beautiful women and wild rivers and ancient cities, and many mysteries.

G.