History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]


My father is from the sideline of Rzewuscy with his family being so rich they p*ss money, my mother is a daughter of a poor profesor and a housewife, both from a long line of dirt jockey peasants, both families are friends and mingle on holidays hows that for rigid structure you ignorant troll?

My best friend is a viscount who worked as a bartender for 2 years, his wife is a receptionist in a hotel as common as you can get, rigid my arse.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]


Cossacks were not an ethnic class, they were not ukrainians or even Ruthenians, they were a military and social class, by 1714 Poland destroyed its Cossacks almost completely.


Thats again a misconception, there were in total 8 major uprisings and only the one under Chmielnicki was relatively succesfull (Cossacks didnt meet any of their long term goals) after Chmielnicki the next major uprising was Palej uprising in 1702 which saw Poland embark on a campaign of extermination.

By 1714 Cossacks were gone from Poland, except for Chmielnicki all uprisings ended swiftly or had little impact, usually they didnt even disturb the region they were in.


Only 3 out of 8 uprisings were about personal freedom, cossacks who were Polands mercenary troops rebelled against Poland liquidating their positions and assigning them to serfdom so these again were not national rebellions, it was simply a group of society attempting to keep its priveliged position by force.

Mexicans dont need or have to rebel, they're overtaking regions of USA by outbreeding the locals and remember US of A is democratic, you have a town with 60% Mexicans the mayor of the town will sure as hell be elected from mexican circles.

Poland had a rigid social structure, there were ways to easily ascend or descend but not en masse like cossacks tried to.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]


Essentially the conlict between the polish king and the nobility.

The king was viewed as weak and for his part he wasnt really ready to run a huge powerfull state and he didnt really like or enjoy being the king in general and king of Poland in particular.

The nobles brought in the Swedes, the beginning of the Deluge is essentially a civil war with half of Polands military siding with the Swedes, later when it occurred that the swedish king is not going to be Polands ruler preferring to treat it as occupied territory the real war began.

The above was a sign to everyone around that Poland is weakening so virtually all neighbours decided to invade, domino effect if you will.

Poland was the big bad boy on the playground, being so it prevented a number of other powers like Russia, Germany and Sweden from ascending so when weakness was displayed it was invaded by its enemies one after another in a domino effect.

By 1655 Poland evicted Swedes, destroyed the Wallachian/Hungarian/Moldavian army, supressed the Cossacks and struck a treaty with the Duchy of Brandenburg so the deluge was over but a massive war with Russia would continue untill 1667.

After 13 years of war with Russia, 5 years of war with all major and minor powers around Poland was ruined forever, following a total of 27 years of war with external powers Poland had to endure a bloody civil war (Rokosz Lubomirskiego) which destroyed much of its military.

By 1667 all major cities of Poland were severely destroyed, most medium sized cities and towns in eastern Poland and Lithuania (today Belarus and Ukraine) were simply gone, approximately 30% of the population dead, the country ruined and the army diminished.

To add to Polands bad luck the next polish king Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki, an alleged homosexual, a weak spined glutton was a completely ineffectual ruler who quickly managed to get himself hated by everyone, during his reign Tartars pillage the polish frontier and only Jan Sobieski manages to save the day and win a famous victory against Turks at Chocim.

Finally we get Jan III Sobieski, the last great king of Poland.

He inherits a country wrecked beyond belief, no money, very few people, anarchy and starvation, the constant wars coupled with the lack of competence of the previous king leave Poland an utter ruin.

This is the last 5 minutes of Poland, under Sobieski the military gets reformed, economy and administration get a boost but its too little and too late, Sobieski rules for 20 years but the damage done to Poland wont heal for another century.

After his death Poland will take in german kings of Saxony, for them Poland will be little more than a pawn, secondary to their own kingdom, Poland will not recover in time for the swedish-russian wars which will roll through its territory delaying the reconstruction even further.

Ultimately Poland will heal internally and start a vigorous reconstruction of its power but by then the neighbouring countries will invade and partition it fearing said reconstruction.

1. Multiple massive wars over a period of decades.
2. Several poor rulers in a row while having said decades of war.
3. Allowing german kings to rule Poland.

Game over.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]


No it did not and it amounts to communist propaganda, the examples where veto was used succesfully to block a decision making process can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

During the communist period the soviet/russian driven propaganda constructed several utterly bullsh*t postulates.

1. Liberum Veto was the reason why nothing could be passed through - Veto was as powerfull as the one issuing it, magnates never used it untill mid 18cent and regular nobles could rarely get it through.

2. Noble anarchy - again nobles were the most determined servants of the Commonwealth untill mid 18 when Poland already fell from power.

Dry facts are Poland didnt fall from power due to its nobility or political strucutre, both served her fine and actually ensured its survival throught the deluge, its the wars that f*cked Poland up.

Poland in the period of 1655-60 was fighting a world war, it was in the position of Germany circa 1944-45, it was fighting practically every major european power except for France as well as multiple smaller powers and it won, it won exactly because of its noblity and policies, no other country could have pulled that off, Germany centuries later didnt.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]


The golden age of the old republic lasted for over 190 years, thats a bit more then several decades.


Actually it did not, it declined in the two decades period of constant warfare which saw over a third of the population and half of all urban settlements destroyed, the long decline was a result of that collapse.


Actually it was Poland regaining its strength as well as adopting democratic principles that led the three tyrannical monarchies to destroy it.


Not somewhere between but between 1655-60 when Poland waged war against Swedes, Russians, Cossacks, Wallachians and the elector.

The trade balance shifted because the economy was destroyed and the decades long period of wars with Russia, massive Tartar rides and constant Cossack uprising meant it could not be rebuilt.


Yes it did you know jacksh*t about polish history.

USA is collapsing due to stupid fiscal policies, unsustainable way of life, waging wars that cost more than US can pay and to top all the economic and geopolitical blunders the ethnic group that made up the countrys elite ie white europeans is becoming a minority and losing control.

Blacks, Jews, Latinos are all third rate citizens or pursue particular interests (in case of Jews) that damage the country so when european whites lose the reins the thing will fall apart and because economy/population shifts against them they will lose the reins of power.

Poland lost its empire mainly due to wars draining it on every level, its that simple, not nobles, not liberum veto, just a lot of massive wars that destroyed the place beyond reasonable hopes of recovery.


Woooah buddy i see another history professor, PLC was NOT a pacifist country.

A noble youth could ride a horse at 8, he was proficient with a sabre and lance at 12, bow and firearms at 15.

The first european wide artillery book was by a Pole, the division system in military is a polish invention.

As for defensive wars.

Poland invaded Sweden, Poland invaded Russia, twice, Poland invaded Wallachia, Poland invaded the Teutonic Order, Poland invaded the electorate... You get the picture.

Poland was not imperialist (usually, sometimes it was) and it wasnt overly agressive, most neighbours invaded it because it was huge, bordered practically everyone and had all the power in the region, if you wanted to become a regional power in central, northern or eastern Europe you had to go through Poland to obtain it.

As for Poland being perceived as gutless? The German, Turkish and Swedish chronicles circa 1400s mid 1600s all repeat a comment that Poles cannot be beaten.

Often just a demonstration of military power such as mobilisation was enough to discourage a potential enemy but if you're smack in the middle of Europe you will have to wage wars, loads of em.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]

Maregea you still didnt provide proof for your lie.

Let me reminded, you have posted an obvious lie, that instead of betraying Poland and siding with Bolsheviks 130.000 Jewish soldiers fought for Poland against Russians.

This is of course a lie and i asked you for proof of your claim which you ignored, so got any proof or are you, as always an anti-polish liar?

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


I just say some stuff to p*ss you off pal.

Thats to say Ukraine was a depopulated wasteland, courtesy of the Mongols, Tartars and your own warring Ruthenian nobility, you had exactly one major city - Kiev.

By that time Poland had Poznań, Kraków, Gniezno... all in all Poland had 32 major cities, six of which were the size of Kiev.

Thats not counting smaller cities and towns, you guys were two barns and a cow.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


Dude its f*cking Stalin we're talking about, he makes poker professionals look honest.

Also Stalin did not promise Poland neither Lwów nor East Prussia.

Love / What do Polish guys think of Irish girls? [187]


Yup, she's Irish, all Irish are butt ugly therefore she's butt ugly by association.

Love / What do Polish guys think of Irish girls? [187]


Actually she's butt ugly.

History / Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible? [198]

You want me to dig up the urban map of Ukraine before and after Poles moved in? There was no nation, no unified culture, no unified govt, no common heritage.

First thing Lwów got when Poles took over were actuall stone city walls instead of a f*cking earth and wood wall.

Love / 'Battered husbands' - still a taboo subject in Poland [387]


Totally David, lets kick your mothers ass first!

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


Oh they did but only after you guys got scattered, you intermarried and today there's maybe 10% of the pre-Vistula minorities that feel like you.

Thats to say im not an enemy of Ukraine or anything it was just too dangerous to have you guys bunched up in one place and supporting UPA.


Hah! Try telling it to Ironside.

History / Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible? [198]


Having a majority in the rural areas gives you a claim to the central urban area in which you have only a tiny minority? By what accouts would such claims be legitimate?


You're still wrong, the immidiate Lwów surrounding was also Polish.


Ukraine does not have a valid claim to the area, they didnt develop it, they didnt build its towns and cities, if it wasnt for Poland and to the lesser extent Russia the place would still be a wasteland, i'm opposed to any agressive takeover but the fact that Ukrainians built a life on what was Polish property and fruits of polish labour is indisputable.


Um no, thats the problem Germans were never a majority in Greater Poland or Poznań, the problem when comparing German partitioners is that they came to a developed nation and took over, Poland came to a bunch of tribals who invited them to rule there and built a civilisation there.

After 500 years the tribals decided to become a nation and take the property of people who built said civilisation there, thats not a legitimate claim at all.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]


Polish actions were completely legal, what was illegal was communist/jewish practices aimed at destruction of Poland.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]

Ok so any proof of this statement:


Or do you still shirk away from backing up whats simply another one of your many lies?


Both happened, in the end the Jews had to contend with both organised business and goverment based backlash as well as social one, when peple realised jewish practices were ethnic based they obviously did not appreciate it.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]


Yes i can but how about you first prove your claim? You know you made it first, i'm happy to provide links any minute just go ahead and prove yours:)


Yes, there was a regular economic war between Jewish and Polish businesses since Jews attempted to monopolize areas based on ethnicity (working with other Jews targetting non-jewish business) so it wasnt specifically against Poles but against all non-Jews.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]


Rubbish, majority of Jews were pro-Soviet and enacted policies that were meant to bankrupt polish businesses everywhere they could, that pretty much makes them enemies of Poland and enemies you fight.


Sure thing but how about you first prove this:

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]

I'm afraid MG is not interested in any of your posts, he posted to show Poles as vile antisemits and that was that.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]


Only about 10.000 Jews fought Bolsheviks, more then 150.000 joined them, in 1921 the war was over so you were cought lying again.

History / Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible? [198]

It was essentially a massive naval/army base, its entire infrastructure and economy was geared towards maintainance of nearly 180.000 military and 40.000 administrative personnel in the region, once Russia withdrew more then 70% of its personnel the region fell into crisis.

History / Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939. [138]

Given that Jews entertained racist marketing policies and anti-Polish pro-communist movement all i can say is ifully support endecja's reprisals.

You've got a minority thats an enemy of your country and actively works to destroy it, you limit their freedom, polish Jews should be glad they didnt face court martial for treason and trials for racism.

History / Give back Lwow to Poland and Kaliningrad to Germany - is it possible? [198]


Buddy Lwów and surrounding regions.


Good but if your people become fascist like you Poland will simply settle the issue with Russia and you'll get partitioned.

You're exactly an example of ukrainian fascism creating its own history, the problem buddy is that your state is weak and unstable, if you become confrontatationist Poland will just b*tchslap you together with Russia, how is that?

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


Ah i thought so, Vistula action descendants?


Which is a reason why Vistula had to be done.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


From Suwalskie region?


Take a trip to Ukraine, Lwów and Kiev are places to go.


To ty już bardziej Polak?:)

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]

I take it you're not living in Ukraine quite some time?

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


Rrrrright... i have to admit i was wrong though it did have a german majority for 80 years but that still doesnt make it remotely german :P

@Aphrodisiac.

According to a Ukrainian guide "Ukrainian places in Poland" by Lwiv foundation Ukraine-Rus we discover that:

Juliusz Słowacki - a famous polish writer is in fact a Ukrainian.
King August - Ukrainian.
Prince Poniatowski - Ukrainian.

Kraków is a ukrainian city given to the Poles by Germans.

Thats just one of many many examples of the alternate worlds history by Ukraine, even your schoolbooks have those.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


I do, Palikot is a very smart cunning man who's using his clownish exterior to further his and his party' goals, the people who threw eggs in Ukrainian parliament were just a mindless mob.

Even today the polish elite is much more subtle and effective, what changed is not the style of polish politics but its goal, in the interwar period it was to further Polands goal now its to further personal goals.


Its not, if it was you would not have the kind of issues you have in Ukraine, what did they hijack? Polish artists, writers, architecture.

For example you can read today how glorious the Ukraine was prior to Polish invasion, there was no invasion and Ukraine was a depopulated field with 2 barns and a house.

You read Sobieski who was supposedly Ukrainian or about the "great Ukrainian city of Kraków" there's quite a lot of made up history in Ukrainian books.


If it collapses instead of weak Ukraine Poland gets strong Russia as a neighbour, Ukraine is beneficial for Poland, if its friendly we have a friendly neighbour, if its unfriendly its still too weak to threaten us on any level so whether friend or foe, weak or strong Ukraine is preferable to Russia.


Yeah except they cant seem to agree what identity it is, for some its Russian, for some its Ukrainian and even then Ukrainian means quite a few things.

Ukraine is faaaar from stable in that regard.


Heroes indicate where the country is going, Chmielnicki and Bandera are not a good idea plus not everyone sees them as heroes, they promote certain ideas but not unity.


Not if it involves booting people from their homes, after having my own people f*cked sideways for several generations i'd never have it done to someone else.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


Rubbish Iron, 25% is a top estimate, in reality its probably lower, yes we know that Ukrainian goverment severely lowers the amount of Poles but still Poles are a minority today both in Lwów and its surrounding areas.

Provided your madmans plan works we'd need to resettle at least three milion Poles to the area, we dont have that kind of people, we might work out a few hundred thousand but thats it and thats not enough, there's no way to make your vision work, morally, ethnically or politcally.

Could we get back Lwów? Yes, could we maintain its possesion and not suffer crippling international backlash? No.

You'd effectively destroy both Poland and the peace we have in Europe.


And you're proposing exactly that, exiling people based on their ethnicity unless they swear allegiance to a foreign power, thats point for point exactly what Prussia did to Poles.

First it invaded Poland, then it made Poles swear loyalty or it stole their lands, you're basically advocating parroting Prussian and to some extent Nazi policies against Ukraine.


If Poland was driven by emotion we'd be doing everything in our power to destabilize Ukraine and invade it later on, luckily people in charge have been somewhat more sane then you, we need a stable Ukraine.


No they would not, there is no real way you could pull several milion people out of your ass, the region would collapse into an economic ruin and become completely empty, we dont have people to settle there and no means of getting them.


Times change Iron, most of us would love Lwów back, i'm a descendand of the Lwówian family myself but what you propose is immoral, impractical and impossible to achieve on many levels.

We could discuss it further but whats the point when its simply impossible, before you start running your mouth draw us a roadplan on how you think Poland can re-aquire Lwów without damaging itself, how can it incorporate it into the country then we can talk.

Right now i dont see such possibility.

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


I met loads and the problem is exactly as i described it, awesome people but when faced with their own political or historic issues they instantly go on this huge imagination trip, this is exactly why Ukraine will fail.


This year will be the fifth time i go there.


Sadly we still lost our elite to WW2 but what we have is still head and shoulders above its Ukrainian counterpart (remember how your elite threw eggs at each other a few months back at your parliament?).


Yes but Ukrainians had a very small part in creating the heritage of the lands they live on, fully developed nations built and fought over Ukraine while the locals still did not develop national identity.

Ukrainian nation as a wider idea is around for less then 150 years, as a relatively sovereign state its been around for 19 years, Ukrainians didnt have time to develop anything noteworthy so the national responce is to hijack achievements of others.


It can lead to the collapse of your country in its current form, thats a huge problem by any account.


No, your country is doomed in its current form, if your nation gained consciousness even a hundred years earlier you'd have backbone to build on, you came to the table to late to avoid growing pains which you are about to experience.

Fact is time is everything in national development, old nations draw strength from their heritage despite Convex' claims that heritage means nothing and its all about individuals, Ukraine has no such rallying banner so temporarily at least, its f*cked.

Its impossible to destroy an old european nation, history provides powerfull boost to integrity, economy helps as well but if you're poor you still have good times to fall on, when Poland was under the heel of partitioners it reminded itself of the time it was the power, what can Ukraine fall back on? Whats the symbol that'd rally your people and provide unity?

Chmielnicki and Bandera are nothing but poor mans replacements, they wont do in the long term.