News / What is the population of Poland's non-european minority? [142]


It does matter if we are looking to solve the problem. Exaggerating the depth and breath of the problems also matters.


The absolute moral responsibility that many Western countries had to take waves of migrants at different times cannot be dodged there is no rethinking required it was a must. East African Asians including those expelled from Uganda in 1974, The Pied Noir who arrived in France were absorbed as were many Muslim French Citizens who fled to European France. It would have been immoral and illegal to prevent them from coming to Europe.


Again a lot of this is exaggerated by the chattering classes and zealots on Blog sites. The tiny minority who despise the local culture are heard more often.

In the UK the majority of non EU migrants are relocating there because of business, they are needed by their companies. There are a lot of myths about migration that just don’t stand up to inspection.

News / What is the population of Poland's non-european minority? [142]


Are you suggesting that it never works without coercion that only full assimilation, the eradication and rejection of imported values, works? This is simply not the case as the development of almost every major European and Asian city demonstrates.

Your idea that cultural dominance is the driving force only works to a point in attracting capital, a limited amount. People are different with them come ideas, even when they hate each other the exchange of ideas happens it is what drives commerce. Money and ideas are what changes a trading post into a significant city.

The great belt of cities along the old silk route was dominated by Turkish people using Persian ideas. European cities only became world beating once they started banking and trading outside Europe on a large scale. Russian cities became stone cities after the Greeks showed them how.

The driving force for all this and more was an exchange of ideas and people not dominance, it was an internal readjustment forced by external pressure that made wealth creation possible.

People follow the money that’s why market traders in central Asia are mostly of Turkish origin as one example, the various ethnic quarters in all cities reflect the cultural exchange and development that migration brings and is necessary for growth. Ireland was the only place in Europe to expel the Vikings and they had to be the only Europeans to invite them back. Spain expeled the Jews and had to import Muslims to do the irrigation work.

Maintaining an identity was what made this growth work, both then evolved together in a slightly different way. People opted for this as the community gives protection until individuals are confident enough to leave the group it’s capital that gives people acceptance who wants a poor person in the golf club?

Imposing restrictions upon people ultimately stops the flow of capital the modern equivalent is economic sanctions. The Chinese discovered this when they turned their backs on the world.

Problems with mass migration today are more about class than anything else as it was in the past with the fear of the mob.

News / What is the population of Poland's non-european minority? [142]


You claimed that multiculturism (without migration) only works when there is strict separation I called that domination so you produced two examples of imperialism to illustrate your point. Imperialism by its very nature is domineering and undemocratic.


You seem to be confused on the one hand you are agreeing (with your examples) that successful enterprises are outward looking and almost always multicultural yet to back your point you say there is no mixing and with the dissolution of the imperium the people stopped mixing.


One doesn’t preclude the other and we are getting perilously close to marketing speak going forward.

The confirmation bias I would suggest is your own, this (unlinked) study was favoured, however you came to hear about it, by you. It confirmed your own bias. I would suggest that Class conflict could be a more appropriate explanation for his findings but with him being North American it’s easier to go for the race card cos class conflict is a no no.


I agree speaking in absolutes is silly that’s why I pointed it out.

News / What is the population of Poland's non-european minority? [142]


Had a search for him, found the wiki pages for bowling alone and the links to conflict theory which in turn led me to several links to class conflict and such like, I then remembered the wiki page for confirmation bias.

So the empirical study is not empirical at all but a social study and as I pointed out to For 4 above everything outside the narrowly defined world of hard science is relative except that any culture/society that looks inward dies.

The bad cultural differences that Nohas mentioned are terrible where as good cultural differences are examples of exquisite taste.

News / What is the population of Poland's non-european minority? [142]


Horse and feathers, care to name such a place cos one doesn't exist, if it did exist and was stable that wouldn't be multiculturalism but occupation/domination.


So all Americans should be puritanical bigots? Don't be silly all cultures and most societies evolve. Any society that cut its self off from change died.


We are discussing problems with migration and social evolution not hard science, all terms used by you here are non quantifiable, what was your point?

Care to point to anywhere in Western Europe with different laws for different ethnicities?

Love / Met this gorgeous Polish lady [27]


You either write assembly instructions or are a lawyer.

Sarcasm fail Zim:)

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


What's the problem?

I know what you could do, blame everything on drunken foreigners and their orange faced slapper girlfriends, add oiks/chavs in the mix and you are on to a daily mail winner.

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]

Jesus wept.

Is it any wonder the Brits never had a revolution in the modern period.

A massively rich country that is still the sixth largest exporter by value in the world that subsidises its high tech industry (one of the top in the world) by fair means and foul, that has a veto in the security council, a country that likes to portray its self as sophisticated and civilised which it mostly is, one disgruntled guy with an axe to grind and a poor grasp of his own history posts crap about poor people and you tear your place to shreds.

**** me, Britain for all its faults is a modern liberal democracy that provides a lot for its people and guests.

Seriously Britain must be traumatised from loosing top dog status.

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


Are you suggesting that I have contacted you in some way because that is a lie, you really are delusional.

Son I'm an Irish republican and have no truck with fascists particularly those who support right wing death squads.

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


What are you talking about?

You are a very confused man, whispering threats in people's ears is cowardly and intimidating.

You have explained nothing to me, just spouted nonsense.

I was taking the pi$$ yesterday here's a clue


I don't think there has been or ever will be a BNP meeting in West Belfast nor is there a candidate standing.


Yes, many people go on atrocity tours:):):)

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


Don’t ever mix my view of the British class system with your sub fascist ramblings.


These laws were necessary to keep people with myopic views like yours from bullying people. If you have something to say do so with dignity and intelligence.

As it turns out the British don’t want you, 98% of British people voted against you.

There are problems in all societies, picking on an easy target is cowardly; in the 30s it was Jews, in the 50s Irish, in the 60 and 70s Black and Asians. It’s dishonest to ignore your role in the class system

Is it any wonder there has been no solidarity since the time of the Levellers when people with views like yours have served the ruling class so well? Did the people of the NE of England have the support of the BUF on their hunger march? Of course they didn’t they were too interested in attacking Jews and other migrants in East London.

The starving people of Manchester demanding proper political representation were cut down. They were starving because of Economic policies you endorse,

If you are going to use the language of class war get your history right.

PS


He was a comedy character on TV. And you want to be taken seriously

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


You got to step back and take a look at what oxon is saying. He is whining that there is no solidarity among the British.

Remember that England is a deeply conservative country that repeatedly votes right wing governments who then become increasingly more right wing. There is not and never was any solidarity among the British working class not even among the English working class. The history of the trade union movement is littered with betrayal for local selfish reasons. If it wasn’t for Scotland and Wales England would have been a one party state.

So oxon comes on here to whine about Polish, if it wasn’t Poles it would be someone else. People are rightly worried about their jobs and competition however look at who they repeatedly vote for. What does he want further than foreigners go home, I asked him and he refused to answer.

Another thing people are worried about is their pensions, grumbling that the government is doing nothing for them yet giving houses to foreigners. These are the same people who voted the right wing governments into power governments who were very clear about their intentions.

There are no houses cos the people voted for council house sales boasting about how cheaply they bought them and how much they made.
All this to scramble away from the poor, it’s not The Polish they don’t like its poor people always has been always will be.

UK, Ireland / Why can't unemployed Polish people on benefits just leave UK and go home please? [240]


It doesn't have an Irish language section, Is there a branch in Andersonstown, that would be handy?

UK, Ireland / Why can't unemployed Polish people on benefits just leave UK and go home please? [240]


I'm a bit nervous what if the neighbours find out?

UK, Ireland / Why can't unemployed Polish people on benefits just leave UK and go home please? [240]


A manifesto is quite an advanced document you have thought about this a lot.
If you could give me some pointers particularly on Farm subsidies and the disposal of farm waste I would be grateful. I have been considering voting BNP but I'm not sure where they stand on many issues of concern to me.

UK, Ireland / Why can't unemployed Polish people on benefits just leave UK and go home please? [240]

These meetings of yours, what do you discuss besides wanting people to go home and restore pride in your nation.

Have you formulated a strategy to make this happen? Once that happens what is the economic policy, your way forward. I would imagine the debates on the finer points of macro economics are electrifying.

I would like to hear you views on Britishness and where you stand on devolution of powers to the English regions or Scottish and Welsh independence. Do you think British pride will eventually become English pride?

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]

For children acquiring a language is not done according to the rules of grammar the best you can say is that they just copy and workout the grammar later that’s why they always follow the rules they have formulated and it sounds cute but wrong.

Kids hardly ever get confused swopping between languages, they do it with ease in one language ie they have a play language with their peers and toys but know exactly where the boundary is.

Phonics is used to teach reading. Words are sounded out.

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]


School age children are not between languages they have one and are learning another or they have two together, developing children (Very young) can acquire more than one language simultaneously.

Children dropping language happens quite frequently but is not a process of losing a language they decide to stop speaking in the "foreign" language but can understand perfectly they may loose the language after a number of years again age dependent.

The third category is children without any of the host language. The ease with which they pick up the new language is almost exclusively dependent on age the younger the easier it’s acquired. It’s also independent of the parent’s ability to speak the new language, you can see the process in action on holiday when kids of many nationalities mix and start using "foreign" words.


I think you missed the point.

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]

There is a big debate going on in education in Britain at the moment, swirling around is the usual mix of Victorian values, half truths and assumptions.

In short social conservatives with a dislike of poor people want to bring a system back that has been rejected by almost all of Europe, a system that doesn’t work and in fact is only a marketing tool for the middle classes.

I'm really not sure what the point of the thread is?

Is it

How do children acquire a language?

How do children loose a language?

What is it about?


That is a severe disability that would disbar the child from mainstream education, thankfully there are places that can offer help and support for an individual with such a severe disability.


Really!!


Why use of course, a lack of language doesn’t equal bad behaviour

This is a serious and interesting topic keep it decent.

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]

Observation is the only way to assess very young children though not perfect it’s a good method especially if moderated by more experienced or dedicated staff.

The Education system in the North of Ireland is different to Britain but we do study the same curriculum. Children do start school at too young an age I agree, there is however at least one year of Nursery school, Kids really do speak English if born in an English speaking country. There are some problems with children with no English (Migrants) but these are quickly overcome.

You will have to trust me that there is a lot of help for children falling behind and with any kind of positive parental involvement the kids soon catch up.

Everyone agrees that parental involvement is vital, this needs to be said again and again all good parents know this including surprise surprise Polish parents. Why that was mentioned is beyond me.


Sorry, to talk up in this context means to tell the parents that they have a bright child brighter than they expected and they have to realise this, or conversely that your child is not as gifted as you think.

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]

AK
The teacher uses their experience to assess the skills of the child, asking the child to read aloud is a good test, observing if the child points for example instead of answering.

The OP was talking about children born and raised in an English speaking country. He mentioned children being unable to speak in either language. I find that hard to believe. Children learn to speak, in any normal distribution there will be some who cannot speak or opt not to speak, this is a tiny minority.

What is being measured is active and passive skills this has to be by teacher assessment because of the age of the child a formal or quantifiable test is not appropriate. Formal testing happens later at around age 7.

At each stage the teachers concerns if any are noted and assessed to see if additional help in needed. There is a wide range of help available, children who don’t speak are moved to special schools. Parents sometimes move their child to another school but the paperwork goes with the child.

Children are not allowed to languish unaided ie passed from one class to another this simply doesn’t happen. What we are talking about here is the professional ability of the teacher and the structural nature of the school. If a child doesn’t acquire language questions are asked of the teacher and school

Acquiring language is not a formal, grammar rules based thing almost all children speak irrespective of the language or languages of the parents.

The OP also talks about sets or streaming by ability, though starting to make a comeback, streaming has not been widely used in Primary schools for about 20 years.

From reading the opening paragraph I know the OP is not involved in either education or child development.

The advice given by the OP for parental engagement in their children’s education is grand we all know this and it can’t be stressed enough.

A number of glaringly obvious errors in practice and an extremely outdated view of education shine through the advice. It’s a rather conservative and incorrect view of education wrapped up in an attempt to portray Polish kids as somehow backward and Polish parents as unengaged with their children. The questions I would be asking are why is it that a teacher is unable to teach all ability pupils? and Why blame the kids/parents?

The king in his castle and the pauper at the gate and so shall it remain is how many see education, reinforcing their own prejudices that’s why I pointed out that teachers have to talk down middleclass parents and talk up working class parents.


Parents meeting, the time is irrelevant.


No this is not true,Polish kids born in the UK speak English.


And contradicts the OP


All children develop at their own speed there is nothing abnormal about very young children taking their time.

There is something that needs to be said here, all children are individuals all develop at different rates.

Edit

Hit the button early by mistake

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]

Its factually incorrect, by law, teachers have to assess children at all stages in their education, initially by informal assessment then by formal testing. The results follow the child, recorded by the school and given to parents. There are parent teacher meetings where the teacher has to give an assessment of the child to the parents twice a year.

In every school there is a designated teacher who by law reviews the test results and decides what action should be taken to help an under achieving pupil. A pupil who cannot talk is either an elective mute or has severe learning difficulties. As the child gets older this becomes more apparent. All primary school teachers are aware of this.

The OP is simply trolling suggesting Polish kids are ESN (to use an offensive term), and is obviously not a teacher

UK, Ireland / Increasingly more Polish children born and educated in UK can't write/read! [51]


Horse and feathers, teachers passing pupils from class to class with no assessment is impossible. Now for a gross generalisation; teachers at KS2 spend their time talking working class parents up and middle class parents down.

There is so much more to be said here but I believe this is a trolling thread, prove me wrong.

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


Irish media agrees with Australian media hardly a hold the front page story.

PS any joy with the Ballyshannon thing.....did you get through?

UK, Ireland / Unemployed Poles in Ireland : a crash course in milking the system [323]

Did you try An Tra Mor;)

UK, Ireland / Unemployed Poles in Ireland : a crash course in milking the system [323]

Yes


RN do you never smile, its a bollox story in a bollox paper

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


It’s not your country, you don’t own any of it its the Queen of England’s country. Just thank her and remember to tug the forelock before going on your way.


What’s the problem you have with poor people?


Bet they wouldn’t bother now.

UK, Ireland / Unemployed Poles in Ireland : a crash course in milking the system [323]

Let’s wait for the Joycean report with its unusual grammar and lack of punctuation :)

Ah man you know what I'm saying about the Independent used to spit going under the bridge

UK, Ireland / Unemployed Poles in Ireland : a crash course in milking the system [323]

The independent!!

Are we to take that seriously, I wouldn’t light the fire with it.

UK, Ireland / WHAT IS IT ABOUT POLISH PEOPLE THAT MAKES THEM THINK THAT UK WANTS THEM? [309]


How did foreign workers cause the bubble or burst it?
Would foreign workers have arrived in Ireland without the bubble?

How many people migrated to Ireland before the bubble?