UK, Ireland / Polonization of Britain - Tipping Point Confirmed in 2011 Census [97]


I hope so as well but history tells us it will take a very considerable amount of time to change some pretty entrenched and contemptuous attitudes in Britain. The reaction by the British at all levels of society towards arriving Poles has not been as hospital as some would prefer us to believe.

We all know by now that infamous moment when a pensioner and Labour supporter Gillian Duffy confronted former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown during a re-election campaign with the following tirade: "You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're ... but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?"

guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/28/gordon-brown-gillian-duffy-transcript

A couple of things have always stood out for me. One was that the surname Duffy suggests an ethnic Irish origin. So whether this woman's own ancestors came from Ireland to Britain or she married into a family that did she really had no place to be criticizing others for doing the same. Another thing was her choice expression of asking where "these eastern Europeans" are "flocking from?" Flocking is a pattern of behavior exhibited by birds. There was nothing folksy about what she said. It is very evident that her words were intended to dehumanize those people with whom she cannot personally identify with on a cultural basis.

Of course Brown was later denounced when he was overheard confiding to an aide that he regarded Duffy's comments as bigoted. Her comments were indeed bigoted and Brown's tone of voice was understandably one of exasperation. Nevertheless he paid dearly for his honesty. The British electorate at that time were extremely disappointed with the Labour Party on a broad spectrum of issues of which immigration was only one. Labour didn't lose because Brown criticized a pensioner (n.b., except for their Queen the British do not have a reputation for showing respect or genuine decent care for the elderly in their society). The final straw was that Brown criticized her for being so strongly opposed to immigration which is what truly resonated with the rest of native Britain. Brown's support for immigration was what cost him the campaign.

Surprisingly even the Roman Catholic church in Britain has been critical of the presence of Poles: "The leader of the country's Roman Catholics has sparked a row by accusing immigrants of creating a separate church in Britain. Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster, urged the Polish community to do more to learn English and integrate into local parishes, claiming the Catholic Church in the UK was in danger of dividing along ethnic lines as the number of Polish-speaking churches rose."

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573992/Catholic-leader-claims-Poles-could-split-Church.html

It seems very odd that someone in an institutional position like a Roman Catholic cardinal would take such a eyebrow raising stance towards Christian worshipping Poles but not other immigrant groups who I am sure conduct services in their own native languages as well.

Of course there are more instances of resistance and resentment towards Poles in the UK which I could add but I'll digress because the high profile examples I provided should demonstrate that Britain still needs to make much more significant progress of adapting itself to the presence of Poles in Britain if it is to live up to its own boasts of being a multicultural society.

UK, Ireland / Polonization of Britain - Tipping Point Confirmed in 2011 Census [97]


Polish migration to the UK within the last decade represents a new phenomenon for the British. Sure people from other countries have settled there too. But you have to admit that the other large immigrant groups have come mainly from India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Jamaica, even Ireland, etc. all of which were thoroughly Anglicized thanks to the iron grip of British imperial rule over them in the past. So, not only do they already speak English (nowadays often better than the British themselves) but they are fully aware of British institutions and structures. In other words they know their place.

Furthermore, many are still active members of the Commonwealth of Nations. Any reverse migration from places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand or even America doesn't add any additional flavoring to the mix. Rather it is just adding more milk to the gruel.

If the British were truly proud of their supposed multicultural island then you would see more corresponding representation of it in places like Parliament; the courts; upper ranks of the military and police; managerial levels of finance, art, education, media, etc. But you don't.

You also wouldn't see organizations like the BNP and UKIP in existence nor would you see frequent anti-Polish sentiment expressed in the British media or by the British here on PF. But you do.

That's why Polish migration to the UK is truly a watershed moment for Britain.


Agreed.

Life / Polish vs British vs American - Clash of cultures [390]


That I cannot say with certainty. I only heard about blacks in some regions of America still using this convention in the modern era. However, there are links to the past which could make this possible since most if not all plantation owners in America's days of slavery had Anglo-Scots-Irish surnames. Britain was also heavily involved as a firm third leg of the slave triangle so Americans obviously continued to have contact with the British; therefore knowledge of their customs would have been maintained. Although Americans never were permitted to hold noble titles themselves it only stands to reason that British customs were adapted and passed down along generations of Americans with British roots or British contacts. Perhaps slave owning whites once made their slaves and servants address them with such titles and this may be why I also heard that some blacks do not approve of its use. Since the "n-word" survived I wouldn't be surprised if other cultural aspects of those shameful days are still around today.


I'll choose: (D) Stapleton needed the scent from an old boot to lure his hound.

UK, Ireland / Polish city that's moved to Britain [120]


Here is a comparison:

Average day in Warsaw:



Average day in London:

UK, Ireland / Polish city that's moved to Britain [120]

Anti-Polish stories from the British media shouldn't come as a surprise. It is a shame though that the graffiti and two drunks gave The Sun material to work with.

But does anyone have actual statistics to refute The Sun's claims of £ódź losing so many residents?

There have been other threads on PF in the past boasting of the good but unspecified works of the likes of John Godson who has represented £ódź for many years both in the city council and in the Sejm. But I haven't found anything yet to show that the population of £ódź has been growing, especially with young families, as a result.

Godson's wikipedia page indicates he has been busy furthering his studies and recently finished two doctorates at the University of Warsaw (political Science- 2011) and University of £ódź (Management- 2012).

It must be nice to have so much free time as a politician. Does anybody know how Godson's personal educational pursuits are going to directly and materially benefit the remaining residents of £ódź?

Life / Polish vs British vs American - Clash of cultures [390]


In some formal settings this takes place but I wouldn't say it is universal. It is somewhat generational and just depends on the place of work and who is around. Some bosses will address their subordinates by their first name while they in turn are expected to address the boss as Mr. (Surname) or Ms/Mrs (Surname). This protocol establishes and maintains a power relationship of who is in charge and who follows. In the presence of clients or visitors the boss may or may not use the first names of subordinates. Sometimes both. For example, you may hear a boss say something like "Mr. Pawian, thank you for stopping by, my secretary Miss Smith will show you out. And then within a moment he will pick up the phone and say "Kate, please show Mr. Pawian the way out."

Of course, when the boss isn't around, the staff will refer to him or her by their first name amongst each other (and usually accompanied by or substituted with a term of abuse).

It also depends on how large an organization is and how long people have been around. When people get promoted over others but stay in the same office or building most will still call each other by their first names. But it is more common today for people to dispense with formalities. Bosses are trained now to develop trust with their staff so they will insist on everyone including themselves addressing each other on a first name basis only. Sometimes in these settings when people get in trouble or can no longer stand working with each other they often revert to using Mr. (Surname) or Ms/Mrs (Surname) to establish distance and demonstrate that they don't want to play the fake social game of "we are a team and love each other very much here at work so lets call each other by our first names."

I heard that in parts of America (particularly the South) some blacks will address others in the workplace as "Miss Kate" (even if she is married) or "Mr. Steve". It doesn't necessarily correspond to situations when a person has a long or difficult surname to pronounce. The usage appears to be an attempt to combine informality with a subtle showing of respect and is usually reserved for a direct supervisor or an older colleague or well known customer. However, some blacks do not approve of other blacks using this convention since they regarded it as self-subordinating and from a bygone era.

Life / Romanian graphic designer needs help about Poland's culture and symbols [4]

When it comes to traditional folk styles there are regional variations around Poland. However, a consistent theme is for floral designs vice geometric patterns (which you tend to find more in neighboring Belarus).

Examples of this can be found throughout Poland in paper cuttings (wycinanki); on decorative eggs used during the Easter celebrations (pisanki); and used in embroidery on ethnic garments (haft ludowy):

• 
  wycinanki
  
• 
  pisanka
  
• 
  haft ludowy
  

Law / Tourist visa to Poland for Indian citizen, invitation letter. [57]

It's unfortunate to hear that you felt you were being used by someone you fell in love with.

India is currently going through a lot of soul searching at the moment after an Indian woman was brutally ganged raped so bad that she died from her injuries. I even heard that when she and her Indian boyfriend were thrown off the bus, naked and bleeding, no one passing by would help them. When the police finally came by and stopped they began arguing with each other over which jurisdiction was responsible since the attack occurred over the course of two hours on the moving bus. As a result there have been nation-wide protests in India regarding entrenched and widespread misogyny. It would be wonderful for you to go to India to be with your love and build a life with him there but I fear it will take at least another generation or two before they come up to speed regarding equal treatment found in more civil societies around the world.

News / The lottery of life: Where to be born in 2013. Poland ranks 33 out of 80. [23]

The Economist has been around since mid 1800's. It is a well respected publication and you can be sure people working at the World Bank do indeed read it on a regular basis. I don't see what benefit they could get from being biased.

You made a point about GDP in various countries. However, this does not necessarily translate into a better quality-of-life for its citizens which is what The Economist survey addressed. Therefore you are not comparing like with like.

Ease of investment in an economy can certainly help to move things in the right direction. But just as important is return on investment. A lot of people will gladly take other people's money and prefer if no questions are asked. But who truly benefits? In corrupt societies the greasy palms always come out on top. And investors who don't know how to grease the right palms in a corrupt society might as well toss their money into the nearest wishing well.

News / The lottery of life: Where to be born in 2013. Poland ranks 33 out of 80. [23]


OK. But I'm sure you will agree that you don't see many native born Swiss, Norwegians, Canadians, Americans or British emigrate to other countries. Places like Canada, America and Britain may be net importers of migrants but for various reasons they overall have the capacity to offer opportunities both to their native population and the immigrants they attract. It would be nice to see Poland stabilized where it was no longer an exporter of its own native born labor force.

News / The lottery of life: Where to be born in 2013. Poland ranks 33 out of 80. [23]

Yes and no. It is a complex interaction and the circumstances a motivated person or someone with a great mind lives in can either further or hinder them in life. I think circumstances explain why some countries (like Switzerland ranked 1st in the survey) go from strength to strength in producing a highly educated population with many opportunities and a high standard of living while other countries slowly plod along or even fall behind.

Some Poles have been extremely successful in Poland while millions of others unfortunately found the need to leave in order to improve their lot in life.

Although the survey did not address migration I did in my thread because what I found interesting from the survey is how Poles over the years went to countries that were only marginally better in terms of this quality-of-life survey. Why did most Poles make do with Britain and not better scoring countries like Switzerland or Norway? I think the language barrier played a role. The UK being more densely populated than some of the top ranked countries would also present greater opportunities in terms of work but not necessarily a higher standard of living.

Yes, it does boil down to the individual and some will be more successful in life than many others no matter where they go. Everyone makes their own bed in life. However, some have to make do with straw while others are handed fine linen. Some individuals are perfectly happy living in the equivalent of a barn after their work day is done while others realize they are being had and stand no chance regardless of their talents.

There are many factors involved but one matter the survey looked at was trust in institutions. I took this to mean the level of corruption in a country and people's awareness and regard for it. In my comparison to migration patterns it wasn't surprising that Poles chose the marginally better UK over someplace like Nigeria which is notorious for extreme levels of inequality and rife corruption at every level of that society. Sure membership of the EU makes movement from Poland to Britain easier. But many Nigerians have settled in the UK as well as Poland. There is no reason Poles shouldn't equally be able to go to work and live in Nigeria. This quality-of-life survey makes it clear why virtually none do. Poles know their talent would be wasted in a country like Nigeria and their own personal aspirations and development would go nowhere.

Poland's ranking suggests it will continue to offer a quality-of-life in the top 1/3 of countries surveyed. However, this position may also indicate that Poland will continue its trend of outward migration of native Poles to other top 1/3 countries while attracting migrants to replace them increasingly from the bottom 1/3.

News / The lottery of life: Where to be born in 2013. Poland ranks 33 out of 80. [23]

I interpreted the article to be about the circumstances created in each country which then compared them to each other.

I went on to explain that this quality-of-life survey further reflected immigration trends over the past decade concerning Poles and Poland.

Love / Polish woman and black/mixed-race guy...... [49]



Your words not mine.



Oh so patronizing strip clubs has nothing to do with sex tourism. As if strippers are willing professional dancers from their local communities and are no different than who you would see performing in a musical.

Strippers have often been trafficked and frequently engage in prostitution to pay off their traffickers, feed a drug habit, etc.. And you don't have to patronize one to know any of this. Law enforcement authorities, medical professional and social workers already do.

Strippers/prostitutes are there to meet demand created by sex tourists. Even if you single out strip dancing the fact remains that the acts they are performing are only to draw in sex tourist customers in order to create revenue for bars and clubs which are often the scene if not actually run by criminal elements. You don't have pay to go to a brothel before it is considered sex tourism.

Too bad for you but you can't rationalize the misconduct of a sex tourist by drawing lines and attempting to redefine the bloody obvious.

Love / Polish woman and black/mixed-race guy...... [49]

You see the world simply from your own narrow understanding of it.

Saying you are British and therefore are somehow entitled to lead a life of booze and debauchery when traveling abroad is complete nonsense. Such behavior is never admired and encouraged in the rest of British society or in other countries. That's reality. And saying its OK because Poles who travel also have no standards or respect for others is also utter tripe. You speak only as part of a subset of bad actors. You don't represent the norm.

For you to pass off comments that you were a sex tourist as if it is a victimless pursuit shows how self absorbed you still are. There is a big difference between thinking you are "it" and actually being "with it".

Sex tourists aren't men with a sense of adventure merely seeking out foreign adult women for a bit of consenting fun in bed. Sex tourists deliberately exploit the women, young men and children in other countries purely for their own gratification. The countries targeted by sex tourists are often economically poorer and therefore are unable or unwilling to tackle this problem. Even if a country has so-called legalized prostitution there is always many other crimes associated with it particularly human trafficking which is a form of modern day slavery.

And wider society suffers too with increased demands and therefore costs in medical services because of the frequent need to treat STDs, HIV, or to carry out abortions. For children not aborted they are often left to languish in a very difficult life of foster care. Again, this is a social and financial burden born not by the sex tourist but passed onto the societies the sex tourist left behind.

But, since you are "living it large" and "as it is" then tell us how many sex tourists you would like your own daughter or son to have a bit of fun with? We'll assume this takes place when she or he is an adult although the age of consent is not always reached for many who are tricked or forced to go to bed with a sex tourist.

Bear in mind that each person you exploited as a sex tourist - regardless of their age - was still the daughter or son of a father and mother you never met and never had any intention of meeting.

It's not about living like Jane Austin. It's about being mature, responsible and respectful no matter where you go or who you meet. These are timeless values and behaviors that contribute to making communities safe and civilized to live in, work in and visit.

By your own admissions you have demonstrated that you are not a good example for others to follow.

Love / Polish woman and black/mixed-race guy...... [49]

Stop pretending that you are now some old fashioned gentleman. You're not. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

News / Polish families are urged to establish themselves in Norway : Taking children away? [36]

If individuals find they have a personal need to belong to a particular religion then they should be free to do so but not when it interferes with the rights and well being of others.

No society is truly homogenous or monolithic anyway. There are always minorities to be found. Sects and other splinter groups always form because of disillusionment with the original delusion known as religion or simply out of pure greed since a lot of money exchanges hands when it comes to practicing one's faith.

That is why the state must remain secular so that no one religious group and any derivation of it can dominate and dictate to others.

Religion is a personal matter and therefore should be kept private - as in behind closed doors.

Governments have a responsibility to ensure that their citizens are not prevented from worshipping peacefully as they desire. They should not be disturbed during their religious ceremonies nor should they disturb others in society.

Those who administer religions also have a responsibility to all members of the communities they reside in and to the governments who represent them. Not only should religions be excluded from shaping laws in society they must also respect and be made to adhere to all laws enacted by the state. Religions must not be allowed to endorse any politicians nor lobby them on issues that would ultimately infringe on the rights of others in society. Charitable acts performed by religious groups should be permitted but not if they exclude anyone or are used to proselytize.

Governments can easily curtail any religious fanatics through taxation and building regulations as well as equality and hate crime legislation. And if a politician should begin to speak and act more in regard to their personal faith or only on behalf of members of their faith rather than all members of society then it is matter for voters, political peers, the judiciary, or (as in Turkey) even the military to have them removed from office immediately.

When the Government is secular and takes active steps to keep it that way through checks and balances it sets a good example because it makes everyone known that they all hold an equal stake in society. When people understand that their religious beliefs are irrelevant in the public sphere then the best and brightest will always be more willing to contribute their personal talents for the greater good.

Love / INTERACIAL DATING WITH POLISH.... ( my dilema) [8]

Here we have some bigot interlacing the ethnic slur "pollack" several times throughout their rubbish post while ranting that it is actually Poles who have a problem with non-Poles.

The anti-social behavior of the OP needs to be confronted and it is clear that this thread was started simply to create a wedge between Poles and others.

News / Poland braces for economic slowdown [30]


Often migrants will repatriate some of their incomes back to their native homelands so yes Poland's economy would see the benefit from this when Poles who go abroad still have ties back home.

Although we frequently hear bigoted exaggerations that Poles went to Britain just to claim benefits the fact remains that many took jobs that were vacant and in demand. They were in a broad range of occupations be it plumbing, manufacturing, agriculture, finance and IT.

Even if Poles took lower wages than the British they were competing with just by taking a job and earning an income would itself stimulate economic activity. Poles working in Britain need to spend part of their earnings on local essentials (rent, utilities, food, perhaps petrol, etc.) as well as saving up and spending it on wants (nicer clothes, holidays, entertainment, etc).

One moan I often heard was that the influx of Poles sustained higher levels of rents or home prices in an otherwise sagging British economy. But if you were a landlord, seller, or estate agent then you wouldn't mind this at all.

Of course the British taxman enjoyed collecting VAT and council tax from working Poles. This is revenue for government coffers which is eventually released back into the economy for government funded programs or other projects which often requires the acquisition of goods and services form other sectors of the UK economy.

Now the levels of economic stimulus from Poles living and working in Britain wouldn't be uniform across that country. But there would have been none had Poles not gone to the UK. I haven't come across any information yet to suggest that native Brits or other immigrant groups could have easily displaced and replaced the Poles in the competitive market place.

News / Wigilia for homeless & needy [18]

Yes, here is a video report: tvn24.pl/wideo/z-anteny/xvi-wigilia-dla-potrzebujacych-w-krakowie,627575.html

Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

It looks too silvery and shiny to be an egg, gall stone or even the femoral head of a thigh bone. So, I'm not sure. By the way, shouldn't this riddle be under your "Food in photo riddles" thread instead or is that part of the riddle too?

Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

It looks like something that would be found inside a drug mule.

News / Poland braces for economic slowdown [30]

I see Britain declining as a popular destination for Polish job seekers if the UK economy continues to stagnate for the next few years. The large influx of Poles into Britain over the past years certainly helped both the British and Polish economies. But this economic stimulation from the free movement of labor had to run out of steam sooner or later.

Poland is in a peculiar position at the moment. EU cohesion funds, which did much to keep Poland out of the red during the crisis, are inconveniently up for negotiation at a time when other EU countries continue to struggle and Poland now faces its own slowdown.

News / Wigilia for homeless & needy [18]

It's wonderful that there are active members of the community who are willing to spend their time and share their own resources with others who appreciate having a warm and free meal at this time of year.

News / Polish families are urged to establish themselves in Norway : Taking children away? [36]

Just like Britain has the Church of England so too does Norway have its own state religion in yet another Protestant strand of Christianity - the Church of Norway.

I really don't see how Poles settling in Norway will turn any tide of growing followers of Islam there. Some native Norwegians may actually resent the growth of both Roman Catholicism and Islam in equal measures.

The best way to protect the rights of citizens in any nation is for their respective governments and institutions to be solidly secular and enshrined that way in law. Otherwise you end up with fascist theocratic entities such as the "Jewish State of Israel" and the "Islamic Republic of Iran."

History / Double faith - the origin of Crylic writing and Poland [9]


If there was an earlier purely Slavic alphabet it would exist in some form or another either today in use or in artifacts. I'm not aware of anything that has survived.

It seems you are excluding the reality that early migration and settlement of people look nothing like how we live today. If they weren't nomads then most people worked the land or other craft and usually did not have a very long lifespan anyway. There were no systems of formal or compulsory schools. People were taught languages from family and their interaction with others. Religious orders and the ruling elite tended to be the ones with improved literacy but this does not mean they were literate in the local languages especially if they were foreign conquerors or a stronger organizing force such as the Kievan Rus, Byzantine Greeks, Romans, etc. There are still people today all around the world who can communicate verbally in a language but are unable to read or write in it. Since the same held true in earlier centuries some would have seen no particular use in codifying their language with an alphabet if they had no use or tradition for texts which at one time in human history were extremely expensive and labor intensive to produce and obtain by the general population. One example of the illiteracy of our ancestors can be seen today in the stained glassed windows used in places of worship. They weren't just used for adornment but as a teaching aid for the faithful who could not read or write otherwise.


Most would not recognize any pagan influences in their faith. The Christian calendar follows closely with pagan holidays going back to the days of the Roman empire. In Slavic lands you still see the use of pisanki adorned with pagan inscriptions used during Easter celebrations. Some churches are often decorated with branches from trees or reeds during other festival seasons. And perhaps more so in the past than now people or their children with wear traditional folk costumes which are often embroidered or accessorized with pagan symbols and colors. And some areas still celebrate pre-Christian holidays such as dożynki and Noc Kupały.

In order to be successful in their work many missionaries made adaptations or drew comparisons between Christianity and the local customs of the populations they were aiming to convert.


See my previous comment. I'll add that paganism was marginalized by was not completely erased with some elements still surviving today.

Officially communism did not recognize religions as being valid. In practice it was difficult for them eliminate. Too many people grew up with a tradition of one religion or another and in post-war Europe - like any population which suffers a disaster - most people were seeking to preserve traditions as they rebuilt their towns, cities and lives. Such traditions included religion. The communist knew they couldn't alienate their own population by closing down and destroying their places of worship and then look to the West and say how tolerant of a system communism is.

As for today people, especially the young, are mostly not very keen on the idea of being blindly devoted to any religion. But that is not to say they want to see religions as a form of personal expression and tradition be eradicated from the societies from which they live. This is due to many factors such as increased education and experience including exposure to other cultures both the good (like charitable work) and the bad (like institutional child abuse, fanatical intolerance, etc.).

History / Double faith - the origin of Crylic writing and Poland [9]

Cyrillic used in East Slavic languages emerged from the missionary work of the Byzantine Greeks Cyril and Methodius. So the Cyrillic alphabet is based on the Greek alphabet but modified for various Slavic languages. Literacy in Slavic lands grew under church influence just as it did in West European countries.

Ruthenian, which uses the Cyrillic alphabet, was once the dominant language spoken in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. However, during the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth Ruthenian eventually gave way to Polish which uses a Roman based alphabet.

Poland has long been a multi-faith and multi-denominational society.

Christian Orthodoxy once held sway in the early era of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (which by the way was the last pagan country in Europe to convert to Christianity). Again, with the Polonization of old Lithuanian territories, Orthodoxy also lost favor in preference to Roman Catholicism. Although Orthodoxy declined it never disappeared and even splintered in the formation of the Uniate Church.

Communism didn't eradicate Christianity in Poland. The Roman Catholic church played a supportive role to the Solidarity movement.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


Considering that millions of Poles have migrated to many other countries (each with distinctive languages and unique cultures) I think it shows that there are lots of Poles (from generation to generation) who are interested in other cultures to the point of immersing themselves in them.

In another thread you stated you are originally from Japan. So what can Poland learn from Japan regarding your expectations of Poles?