History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


Firstly i said nothing about how the Russians viewed the Poles, and frankly I could not care less. As for the Germans, my argument was that they did not to my knowledge, equate it with the oriental, if they did than it probably tells you all need to know about the Germans.


They were the first to put into practice the idea of an enlightened state as envisaged by some of the philosophers, that is why they are credited as having the first modern constitution in Europe.

As for "but this constitution did little to improve the situation of the people", well obviously, the Prussians, Russians and Austrians wouldn't allow it to happen. Because as stated by Frederick at the time, they were afraid of a powerful Poland. Prussia only abolished serfdom in 1807, whose say that Poland wouldn't have done so earlier if it had the chance, as envisaged by Kosciuszko? As for Austria-Hungary it was only abolished in 1848!

As for "Prussia and Austria also introduced compulsory schooling at the same time", that is not what I argued, my argument was based on the 1st ministry of education, on which you are in need of some enlightened yourself: 'The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth's Commission of National Education (Polish: Komisja Edukacji Narodowej) formed in 1773'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Poland

Not until the implementation of the Prussian General Land Law of 1794 did the state first attempt to take responsibility for educational institutions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

As for Austria, it would certainly have been later. So no it was not at the same time Poland was at the vanguard.


That wasn't a march(:


begrudgingly i have to concede it.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]

I have to disagree, only democracy can realize the self-actualization of the person and the satisfaction of the ego, and only the self-actualization of the person and satisfaction of the ego can maintain stability in a country. Arbitrary and centralized government does not cater for either of these preconditions for stability.

The one thing i will have to concede to the Prussians, they have very good March compositions.
Hohenfriedberger Marsch
youtube.com/watch?v=PcUR6y6Kmkk

Yorckscher Marsch
youtube.com/watch?v=Ow5BbhGd5Mw

Preussens Gloria

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_May_3,_1791

Well in comparison to Germany or Russia it was not ruled by an absolutist monarch, because the Poles did not believe in the divine right of kings, this was the case for centuries before the Germans, Russians and others gave up on the idea.

Absolutism is most strongly associated with a primitive form of governance most strongly associated with the middle ages, as well as some of today's African and other countries. As far as central Europe is concerned, it was Poland who most closely embodied enlightenment philosophy in the practice of governance. Stanislw August Poniatowski, was arguably the most enlightened monarch of his time.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]

I am not saying that Poland was more industrialized than Germany, because it was not. But to pretend that there was some vast chasm between the two-(based on the writings of dishonest 19th century academics who tried to defend the indefensible), when there was not, and that in many respects Poland was more advanced politically-despite the best efforts of Prussia and Russia, is just plain disingenuous and untrue.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]

Sorry BB, but it seems that you have been very well inculcated by the German school of propaganda, so let me try to undo some of the damage:

Not content with the territory he had annexed, Frederick inhibited the economic recovery of Poland by all available means. In March 1775 he foisted a protectionist trade treaty on Poland whose aim was to maintain Poland as a source of cheap raw materials for Prussian industry and a market for Prussian goods. Duties of up to 50 percent on some Polish goods and a complete ban on the import of others was to close the Prussian market to Polish industry. a transit duty of 50% on timber floated down to the Baltic ports and one of 90%! on wool were designed to force the Poles to sell these cheaply to Prussia rather than export them overseas. Frederick also squeezed Gdansk in order to make it desire incorporation into Prussia. He slapped a duty of 12% on goods passing Marienwerder, and another 12% on them as they sailed out of Gdansk. The same goods passing Mareinwerder for shipment from Prussian Elblag, were only taxed at 2%.

Indeed the Russians and the Prussians are in many ways directly responsible for the slow development of Poland, and I would be happy to use numerous more examples to illustrate my point. It is also important to note that despite these unfair obstacles, iron production still averaged 1.8 kilograms per capita compared with 1.2 kilograms per head for Germany at the time.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


First of all it wasn't thanks to Prussia when they eventually did, since Prussia made sure that this would be delayed for as long as possible. for instance by taxing Polish trade going up the Vistula River. In addition to blocking all the reformist factions in the Polish parliament, in addition to ensuring that the Polish catholic nobility paid a greater rate of tax than their protestant German counterparts during the partitions.

And it also comes back to how you wish to define a the middle class, Poland's middle class did exist at the time, but it was predominantly composed of Jews since they had special patent for their trade in the cities.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


I wouldn't, not at you BB. But i specifically mentioned Prussia becoming protestant, and not Poland inventing protestantism.


Yes they were, but unlike the Germans they also practiced a far greater degree of religious toleration, which allowed for protestants to sit in the Polish parliament and for a vassal of the Polish state to become protestant.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


And yet I specifically referred to politics, but whilst you are on the topic of education you can also add that they had the first board or ministry of education in Europe which was secular and separate from the church. Besides most of the arguments you are brining up were only formulated post facto. Besides why would Poland choose to define itself by its enemy, whose duty it was to bring up as many untruths as possible to justify actions?


On on the topic of modern societies and identification with the national interest, it is a fact that the Polish nobility was one of the first to identify with the national interest. Most certainly far earlier than the German nobility who up util the 19th century practiced a feudal form of patronage dissociated from the interest of the state, and had a system of governance broken down into a multitude of little statelets, (an inheritance of the Holy Roman Empire) more akin to the middle ages. So it's just patently ridicules to say that somehow the German were way ahead in terms of forming a modern state.

quote=Des Essientes]In the case of Poland the Occidentals doing the Orientalizing were intellectuals in Prussia/Germany and Austria that wrote articles and books about how the Poles were a wild, relatively primitive people, that were incapable of governing themselves effectively because of these unfortunate Asiatic character traits.[/quote]
Where in a sentence can you find Poland and Orientalism being used in the same context written by a serious scholar?

in fact it is is arguable the the birth of the modern state in Germany-which is credited by many German scholars to the protestant ascendancy, is directly attributable to Poland, since it was only thanks to the patronage of the Polish king that Prussia was able to turn protestant.


just for your eduction concerning Prussia becoming protestant.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Homage

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]

Home grown rascals Indeed! They formed a distinct minority in the population, but they could count on the armies of Russia and Prussia to do their bidding.


Well far be it for me to try to explain German arrogance and convenient amnesia, but I doubt that if the Germans have ever heard of the 3 May Constitution. The only motivation for the German partition of Poland apart for more land, was a fear of Poland as was openly admitted by the Prussian king, as well as the overturning of the Subservient position of Prussia in relation to the Polish Crown (all those Prussian electors having to learn Polish and paying homage to Polish kings- was so hard don't you know). Any other justifications were usually always post facto and extremely economical with the truth. The Brits and others did not fear those they colonized.

UK, Ireland / Are Poles in UK really that big of a deal? [112]

No offence but most Brits are not not intelligent enough to distinguish between Poles and non Poles, I get the feeling that many Brits are starting to use a shorthand for all East European migrants and calling them Poles.


It's also a fact that Poles are 4 times less likely to commit a crime than the natives.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


The Germans came across a country that in many respects was more politically advanced than themselves, and used the argument post facto. However, in their justifications they almost certainly did not refer to Poland as the orient. as for the British and others, their observations of the countries they colonized were quite accurate, e.g: widow burning in India.

The only association with Poland and orientalism is in regards to the fashions of the Polish nobility, who appreciated the finery of oriental dress.

History / Poland and Orientalism [115]


You are full of crap aren't you. Never in my life have I come across oreintalism used in the context of Poland.
BTW: I have read some of Said's work, and it comes across as being written by someone with a massive chip on their shoulder.

Love / Do Polish men like to sleep with other men? [79]


By attitude, do you mean that they are really in denial or do they act like real queens. As for the looking differently bit and the hello bit....maybe he was trying to be really friendly, or perhaps you are very good a picking out people who are attracted to the same sex. However, until such time that you get a direct approach, you can never know for certain.

Love / Do Polish men like to sleep with other men? [79]


And your information is derived from where? internet forums?


Yes, I am also curious.

UK, Ireland / A South African moving to Poland with Polish wife- we live in London. Excited and scared. [27]


Good luck, I hope you enjoy it, I have a weak spot for South Africns. I find South Africans to be some of the warmest individuals one can hope to meet.

Love / Do Polish men like to sleep with other men? [79]

You can't be for real, If gays in Poland had is as easy as in the UK well.........there would be many more happy gays. As things stand it's not that easy being gay in Poland. However if you think that my observation is incorrect, please elaborate.

News / Dumbing-down in Polish schools and the Matura [185]


The same system applies here in Auss,for instance with Chinese students who are barely literate in the English language, yet in the end they all pass and the Uni takes its slice, it is very common.

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]


I don't believe it; is there a reason why you are no telling me? When you mentioned Peter the Great, how is he supposed to be related to the march?

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]


No it wasn't, who was the composer?

History / What are the key features of the Polish Eagle? [56]


A question for you, who composed the Preobrajensky March and when was it composed?

News / Dumbing-down in Polish schools and the Matura [185]


What type of punishments to they use in the Polish education system?

Life / Positive things which make a Pole stand out positively in the World! [30]

This topic sound a bit to self indulgent to me.

Travel / Quiet places to visit outside of Krakow [15]

Terrible assumption, just because he can't drive(: I would recommend some of the villages around Zakopane: Zab, Ciche, Ratlow, Koscielisko, Poronin, Czerwienne, Mientostwo etc.

History / Polish and Russian soul anno 1914 and today [45]


Yes but somehow implying that it was all motivated by destroying the Slavs is just paranoid nonsense.

History / Polish and Russian soul anno 1914 and today [45]

Just so that you know, I do hope that you are joking, otherwise you would be the sick one if you weren't.

quote=Wiedzmin_fan]boletus: Stalin's famous statement "The introduction of communism in Poland would be similar to the imposition of the saddle on a cow" demonstrates a continuation of justifiable Russian distrust of Poles.[/quote]

It can be done, as this German girl demonstrated.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D4WtxKoal-c

News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

A recent pictorial update from the Ukraine from wyborcza:

Somebody shooting at somebody, somebody holding pictures stating that bin laden is alive, some bare breasted women celebrating Victory Day etc.

Seems like right old mess.

News / 2011 Netherlands discuss Polish deportation plan [118]

The Dutch politicians in question are fundamentally racist by singling out east Europeans, if he just said Europeans or foreigners, I am sure nobody would take any issue. He is obviously playing to the racist element in Dutch society, the fact the he feels he has to specifically single out a certain part of Europe means that he is playing the race card.

It would like saying we are going to come up with a new law to target pedophiles (no objection), but try placing Dutch or west European before pedophiles, and see if you get the same reaction?

I think it it is present in every society, especially societies with a colonial past(not my judgment on colonialism).

Love / The importance of Catholicism during marriage with a Polish girl [44]

Could anybody else have summarized things better? Great advice.

News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]


There is an easier way for lwow Oblast to get into the EU, If you know what I mean, nudge nudge.....wink wink..

News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]

It is because unlike the Poles the Ukrainians have always invested a lot of trust in mother Russia; many consider themselves little Russians and have a lot of cultural similarities. The Ukrainians have always viewed the Russians more as their kith and Kin than they ever did the Poles (despite the starvations).