News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Well now, the Polish government was singing a very different tune when it ignored the ECJ's ruling on the logging in Białowieża. But when it suits them they'll listen - just as long as the court rules in their favour of course. Not likely it will though.


They have no direct power or influence in the EU other than through their own politicians who are a bit different behind the scenes to the lines they feed the public.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


It doesn't matter in the least what "Europeans" think of her. What matters is that she's a senior statesperson who has enormous influence within the European Commission and Parliament. She's just been re-elected in her own country and unless she drops dead she will continue to be of great importance. The EU is clearly trying to find a way to help Poland to back down on judicial reform without Poland losing face, that's all it is.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


Dirk can you really be that naive. It's called diplomacy. There's a subtext. What it actually means is Germany asking Poland to come back in line with the EU and the reward will be greater influence for Poland in the bloc as long as Poland respects EU norms and values. That's all.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Dirk, do you understand who it is who's doing the voting in the EU parliament. It's the politicians from the various EU nations who have been directly elected to the European Parliament by the citizens of their countries to serve their electorates as MEPs.


The vote is regarding democracy and rule of law, not immigration.


Again, you don't seem to understand what that means. Poland will still get funding and will be eligible for rebates. And very importantly the EU budget only finances projects in policy areas where all EU countries have agreed that if they join forces at Union level, they can achieve better results at lower cost than if they acted at a national level. Consider it like a club membership fee, where the benefits of being a member of that club are greater than the cash value of the fee you pay.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


Lip service. Talk - and nothing more than that. They voted in the opposite manner in the most recent vote taken on the rule of law in Poland, just a week or so before that statement. You should keep informed about the daily schedules of the European Parliament if you want to know what's going on, not just read news headlines. Just over a week ago there was a vote taken on whether to add three more concerns to the present reasoned proposal regarding the rule of the law and all the Baltic states voted in favour of doing so. The Baltic states are not at loggerheads with the EU and doesn't want to be.

Every single country you mention as Euro-sceptic, with the exception of Hungary, voted to initiate Article 7 proceedings against Poland. Nobody is going alienate other members, its colleagues, in effect and align themselves with a state that's becoming increasingly isolated.


Actually it's Poland that's losing touch - and influence.

The Daily Express is rubbish by the way. Sensationalist headlines with no basis in fact, such as "Poland to be booted out of EU" which can't be done as there is no mechanism in place to throw out any member.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

The European Commission has held a news conference and said they're not satisfied with the White Paper which Poland submitted in defence of the judicial reforms. So together with Ireland's challenge to the rule of law in Poland, which is coming up before the European Court of Justice very soon, it's crunch time.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

Very few protesters have been physically violent towards anybody so that's a bit of a stretch Dolno. And most of them are certainly not extreme. For example, I don't agree with PIS - would you say I was 'extreme left'? I'm sitting here at my husband's desk with a Franciscan mass enrolment hanging above it that I got for him, a statue of Our Lady nearby and a framed prayer that hung all my life on the wall of my own childhood home since my mother picked it up in an antique shop years ago. You're painting a stereotypical picture, and trying to slot people neatly into left and right categories that don't always fit.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

A responsible government doesn't introduce laws on the basis of 'targeting' certain groups at the expense of the bulk of the population. The laws introduced so far affect everybody who lives in Poland. As for extreme right wing groups, if anything they are being treated with kid gloves whilst counter protesters are being manhandled by the police because of the new law on public assembly, which removes the right of the people of Poland to counter demonstrate.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

As it's a law, then the decision about whether that law has been broken will up to the courts, which have of course been 'reformed' and one of the reasons they've been reformed is so that the government can introduce lots of new laws curtailing civil rights and freedoms which in theory can be challenged, but which in reality will be upheld by the courts.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

What regulations exist in other EU countries I wonder. There is a big difference between regulating charities to ensure that the funds collected are used for their stated purpose and forbidding the collection of funds for that purpose, which is what the new law is doing. It's saying you can't collect for a cause PIS doesn't approve of because if you do, we'll take the money.

It's another interference in civil liberties because if I decide to give to money to a charity the government may take it and give it to a cause of which I don't approve. And, the money won't be returned to me, so the government will in effect be stealing from me.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

I read it. It's outrageous. Whilst it probably won't affect collections for the poor and the sick, it will definitely mean that any money raised for what PIS sees as 'leftist' causes will be appropriated. And who will decide whether the collection was 'illegal'? The courts................

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

But they won't be watching officially Dolno and will be able to do nothing to help. You cant' have it both ways. You can't say that you resent EU interference and at the same time rely on them to watch over you and prevent your government from infringing on your civil and human rights.


I appreciate your irritation but I'm just an observer with an opinion. People don't have to be Polish or even live in Poland to have an opinion on its politics.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


Just in case you missed my earlier response, the Commission doesn't oversee elections in EU member states. We're all supposed to be democracies so it's not considered necessary. However, they do offer a voluntary support service for places like the African continent. It will be a sad day for your homeland if they have to ask to be 'overseen' like a third world country, because public confidence has dropped to such an extent that they suspect the elections are rigged.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


That's news to me. I'm not aware that the Commission oversees elections in EU member states nor does it validate election results. And it's ironic that you should be citing an EU institution as a guarantee of democracy in Poland, seeing as you'd prefer Poland to Polexit!

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


Now there's the rub. The judicial reforms effectively fill the Supreme Court with PIS supporters - and the Supreme Court validates the election results........


I'm guessing it's in Midsomer! Bring back Tom Barnaby, that's what I say :))


Well ironically that's precisely what your'e going to get a few years down the road if you carry on as you're doing now. There's been a touch of it already with the actions of the police against protesters, very rough handling of peaceful individuals.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


You need a balance of experienced and new blood - and the new blood is no use at all if it's selected on the basis of loyalty to PIS. In any case the last of those who served in the PRL would all be coming up to retirement age quite soon.


The judicial system is not just about criminals. It's about civil and commercial arbitration as well.


That's a bit of an exaggeration. Do you really believe that the Cotswolds, the Yorkshire dales, the Devon and Cornwall coastline etc are cess pits of crime?? And is there honey still for tea...........

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


You do know about the 'reforms' of the Polish army enacted since PIS came to power don't you Dolno? Senior figures have been replaced with inexperienced individuals selected for their loyalty to PIS. And there are further changes on the cards. These things creep in gradually until a country is paralyzed. And are you really saying that you have no problem with a Poland where a military coup may be necessary?? Do you want to live in a Banana Republic?

Individual changes on their own in the area of policing, army, judiciary, education etc may not be necessarily sinister and may not be any worse than some other European countries which are borderline democracies like Italy, BUT, take them all together and the picture is not pretty. There is a very methodical process taking place to insert PIS supporters into all the key areas of Polish adminstration and to restrict civil liberties.

The new judicial reforms for example mean that any judgement given in a case, will never be final and can be reopened at any time and that's also retrospective in respect of cases that have already been dealt with in the previous 20 years. Extremely sinister.

I'm surprised at you Dolno. You're clearly an intelligent person with plenty of life experience and from growing up in the UK you have imbibed much of the principles of a modern democracy. You remember Britain from the days when "men were men, women were manholes and we had no truck with the Middlesex regiment" :D Even in those more conservative times, Britain was firmly democratic with a high tolerance for individualism and a high degree of personal freedom for its citizens. You certainly won't have that in Poland if it carries on down this road.

Yes I'm also feeling fluffy, especially as it's St Patrick's Day tomorrow :)) Wrap the green flag 'round me boys!

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


No EU member can be booted out. You're reading too much of the Daily Express with its sensationalist and totally inaccurate headlines. There exists no mechanism to throw anyone out of the EU. That could change of course but it would have to be debated, discussed, formulated etc and would probably take a few years to finalize.


Why is it that anybody who objects to the idea of an authoritarian right wing government dismantling the modern Polish state and setting themselves up to govern forever, is a 'Marxist'. As far as I'm concerned the man was first cousin to Lucifer. Like most champions of the 'worker' including Lenin and Uncle Joe, he never did a day's hard graft in his life and his Utopian theories caused untold misery and hardship to billions. You should read about Welsh factory owner, Robert Owen, a TRUE champion of the working man who actually improved the quality of their lives with his social reforms including the eight hour working day, and that was back in the early 1800s.

Now, back to the EU. The voting I'm referring to is the vote on a resolution against Hungary and that will most definitely take place and will pass as the majority of MEPs are concerned not only about Poland but also about Hungary. Regarding Poland,we are still only at Article 7 stage one. After the 20 March deadline, another two thirds majority vote will be needed to move to Stage 2. The Parliament already has that. Then there will be another vote which requires a four fifths majority, that's the tricky one as it depends on those who've abstained up to that point, climbing down from the fence. The final vote would be for sanctions and that's the one that requires unanimity. That probably won't be until December of this year and by that time Hungary will also be subject to Article 7 which could prevent it from voting. Incidentally Romania is also in line for Article 7.

The good thing to come out of all this mess, is that now that's it's taken the plunge with Poland, the Commission seems to be more comfortable with invoking Article 7. They were guilty of being head in the sand with Hungary and this is the result, a divided EU in a crisis situation. So I suspect that from now on, they'll be much quicker to react to backsliding in other EU states - there's also no doubt that this will ultimately lead to mechanisms being introduced to expel rogue states from the Union.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]

Apparently there are legal loopholes around this, if both countries are subject to the first step in the Article 7 process.

News / Hungary Veto on Poland Sanctions may not happen [108]


Well that's what I'm showing you, that proceedings are beginning this month.


Don't be too sure about that. Firstly although we talk about a 'country' voting, MEPs cast individual votes and a majority of MEPs who chose to vote, from every single one of the countries you mention, voted in favour of the resolution against Poland back in November. Secondly MEPs belong to internal political parties, the most influential of which is the EPP and is strongly in favour of sanctions against Poland. You also have to look at who abstained at the last vote ie preferred to sit on the fence and which party they belonged to. That gives an indication of how they will vote if push comes to shove. If I'm a member of the EPP and abstained last time, my colleagues will bring pressure to bear on me next time round to increase the possibililty of unanimous agreement on Article 7.

Also another vote was taken earlier this month on the Commission decision to activate Article 7 and once again a majority of the MEPs of the Baltic States, Czech Republic, Austria and Slovakia voted in agreement with the motion for resolution that the Parliament Reiterates the positions and concerns expressed in its resolution of 15 November 2017; calls on the Commission to closely monitor developments in the other areas of concern highlighted by Parliament and to take appropriate action;

Their heads of state can waffle on about supporting Poland but the reality is rather different. Fine words butter no parsnips :))

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

Aileen Donnelly, the judge in question, is no friend of the old boys' club. She used to be co-chairperson of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties which is a human and civil rights watchdog and is a bit of a thorn in the government's side if anything as they do pesky things like objecting to the idea of Ireland having ID cards whenever it's suggested :) Also she's been a barrister for 30 years so I don't think she's trying to make a name for herself or anything. There may be a political reason behind it but I would say that's her own personal view, rather than her being a mouthpiece for the Irish government. The Irish generally try to avoid any confrontation or bad blood with other nations. Even look at how we've patched things up with England over the years. I think the Irish government will be finding this whole thing a bit of a nuisance. They really don't want to be embroiled in this kind of controversy, I'm pretty sure.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


It's certainly very significant timing, with, as far as I know, the case to be heard exactly on the day that the deadline expires for Poland to address the rule of law concerns. However, as mentioned by myself and others, this is not the Irish government, but an individual judge of the Irish High Court. The Irish government generally has very good relations with its fellow EU members and is not in the habit of selling people out Dolno as you well know.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

It's a problem Dolno because it's a test case which could create a legal precedent that would have a massive knock on effect for the whole of the EU. It also requires the European Court to make a judgement, based not on politics or diplomacy but on EU law so it places the European Court in a very difficult position. They must rule on a sound legal basis, but that judgement could force the hand of the European Commission in its present discussions with Poland. Basically if the European Court rules in Ireland's favour, it would mean the the Commission has no choice other than to proceed to another vote in the European Parliament, this time as to whether Poland is deemed to be in breach of the Rule of Law.

History / How come Poles like Russians but not Germans? [216]


I was intrigued by that so I looked it up and apparently the city of Curitiba in Brazil has the second largest number of Polish diaspora in the world after your own hometown of Chicago - quite unexpected. I don't think people associate Brazil with a big Polish community.

The Curitiba story is fascinating. The Liga Morska i Rzeczna was a Polish organization set up in 1930 with the hope of establishing Polish overseas colonies, would you believe. They were also attempting to build up the Polish Navy. In 1937 Poland officially demanded overseas colonies from the League of Nations but they were refused. Anyway the Polish League bought a lot of land in Brazil including in Curitiba to such a degree that the locals got a bit upset and started demonstrating. There were fears that Poland planned to officially make Brazil (or at least some of it) a Polish colony. So the Brazilian government limited Polish immigration. Who knows, if WWII hadn't broken out, would Poland have tried to build an empire?? Other places hallmarked by Poland as possible colonies were Liberia and Madagascar.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

You're applying American principles again. Ireland is not the US. The population self-identifies as overwhelmingly 'white Irish' on the census form and if you walk down the street in any town other than Dublin or Galway, you'll see that for yourself. Galway attracts a lot of foreigners but they come ironically to experience the Gaelic culture, the Irish language which is still spoken in the area and the music. They generally stay a couple of years and then go back home. Most of our foreign nationals are white Europeans with Poles being the largest single group at 3%. Other Europeans make up the bulk of the rest.


15% is not a quarter and that number fluctuates because many people don't come to live in Ireland permanently. It's not a great destination for immigrants except those on lucrative job contracts or students. It has very limited employment opportunities, the cost of living in the three main cities is extremely high and affordable housing is in short supply. As for the ones who stay, there are no ghetto areas or huge communities of foreigners living together. Poles for example don't live in a Polish neighbourhood. They are scattered all over Ireland and integrated into the communities where they live. Their children learn to speak Irish in school, sing Irish songs, learn Irish dancing, play Gaelic sports, speak with Irish accents. Many of them will marry into Irish families when they grow up.

And as for the Syrian refugees, the ones who've been in the country since last year have already been taught to play Gaelic football by the locals and one of them is on the senior team already so could well be playing in the All-Ireland championship matches soon. The Syrians have already been bussed up to Dublin to attend the major national Gaelic football matches :D Ireland is very, very small and integrating is almost unavoidable. We're not like Germany or France or Sweden. We were invaded and occupied from the Vikings onwards over a thousand year period and the culture survived.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]


Yes but you said it in response to my comment that the country is still 95% white, so what point were you making? As I say, a good many of them are Poles and others whom we call 'the new Irish'. They have Irish accents anyway, so that'll do us :)) As to the Irish judge, we'll let the European Court decide.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

The census results from 2016 show very clearly that 15% of the population of Ireland are foreign nationals but most of those are from Poland, the UK and Lithuania. You were trying to suggest that a large number of Muslim children were being born in Ireland, you assumed that the quarter of births were Muslim.


But Dirk, we the Irish people voted for it, in a referendum. It wasn't forced on us.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

And most of those mothers were Polish Dirk.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

That hasn't been the pattern so far in Ireland. We've had Muslims in the country since the 1950s and they still only comprise just over 1% of the population. We don't allow unfettered immigration and family members can't just waltz in. Unlike Poland, we've been taking refugees and asylum seekers for years and the country is still 95% white and Christian and that's a fact.


Once again, I am Irish, not British.