Language / Dwa vs. dwie in Polish [85]


I know, I forgot to append the smiley sign. Those of your past posts that I read were always very informative.

Language / Dwa vs. dwie in Polish [85]

It is because he wanted to impress you; it looks no as bad when categorized into patterns (personal-masculine, live-masculine, feminine, etc.) and then sorted according to declension cases.

Here is something interesting...
Polish dialects: Declention of the numeral two.
Translated from: gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=161

Declension of the numeral two divides Poland into two areas - north and south. Dialects of the majority of Mazovia, Suwałki dialects, Chelmno-Dobrzyn, Kociewie (from Kościerzyna, Złotów, Kutno, Ciechanów to Ostrowia Mazowiecka, Grajewo, Suwałki) do not know the form of "dwie". Instead, they use the masculine numeral two "dwa", for example, "dwa kaczki, dwa krowy" (two ducks, two cows). Similar form appear in a small area in the south of Spisz, as a result of Slovak influence.

Old Polish division of forms: "dwa" for male, "dwie" for feminine and neuter forms is retained in the Silesian dialect and nearby slangs of adjacent Lesser Poland (west of Zywiec, Chrzanów and Lubliniec). Compare "dwa konie" (two horses), but "dwie kury" (two hens), and "dwie cielęta" (two calves). Other dialects are basically consistent with the general language overall, but they do not use the personal masculine forms "dwaj, obaj" (two, both). In Silesia there is personal masculine form "dwo": dwo bracio, dwo ludzie (two brothers, two people). They also do not use the collective numerals, replacing them with the main numerals, as in "dwa sąsiady", "cztery dzieci" (two neighbours, four children).

UK, Ireland / Why can't unemployed Polish people on benefits just leave UK and go home please? [240]


Absolutely, Professor Sir!

• 
  Teachers are the best partners for a funny discourse
  

Food / Stuffed cabbage - gołąbki - recipe [59]


Yes, Boletus edulis. But avoid B. calopus, B.satanas and other black sheep of the family. :-)

Food / Stuffed cabbage - gołąbki - recipe [59]

Nice. My grandmother used to make them tiny - half the standard size, filled with loose pork + rice + mushrooms + herbs or whatever, and served them with a bit of melted lard with cracklings poured on the top. I hated the boring standard heavy cannonball of beef/pork stuffing with tomato sauce - as they served it in our high school dormitory almost once every two weeks, and everywhere else where I tried since then.

Genealogy / Help finding info about Naliborski [23]


Connecting Frank+Martha from Tamaroa, IL with their descendants should be quite easy. I know for example about one of their sons, James Naliborski (1933-2011) and the grandson Robert, also deceased, I also learned about bunch of their surviving grandchildren and great grandchildren. The next step for you would be to go back in time to see if there is any relation between Frank+Martha Andrews Naliborski (1897-1975) and any of the brothers: August(1861-1933), Klemens/Clemens/Clement(1857-?), Emil(1867-?), etc. They were all born in Poland, probably in the same town as August - Gołańcz, Wielkopolska Province, formerly Posen province of Prussia.

August produced several daughters and some unmarried sons, so he is of no interest anymore. Klemens, Emil, George(?), Steve(?) moved to Radom, IL so you can stitch some data from St. Michael the Archangel Catholic Church records, at Radom (see also marriages and burials). They show, for example that Klemens got married in 1883 and produced several daughters and son Joseph. Similarly, Emil had several daughters and sons Joseph and Michael.

However, this manual approach is time consuming and error prone. There are tools, such as www. ancestry.com (which I already mentioned in post #2) that make such tasks much easier and more exact. You can built any family trees, navigate back and forth, cross-reference. But that requires you to at least register, or pay for some services. I am not willing to get involved that deep in your affairs and it is up to you to check any possible connections between Tamaroa, IL and the "butcher business" brothers, born in Gołańcz, today's Poland. BTW, trees of other families, related to Nalborski/Naliborski can be also of use to you. Check for example Pasternacki, or Felckowski trees.

If such connection is established then you would need to switch to Polish records. One very useful web page is "Poznan Marriage Indexing Project". It consolidates searches through various parishes (Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) in the Prussian province of Posen (Today Wielkopolska Province, with its capital Poznań). This is where town of Golańcz (Gollantsch) is located, the birth town of August Nalborski and his brothers.

BTW, the town of Gołańcz suffered from plagues over the centuries and therefore its owners/rulers were bringing German and Jewish settlers there. Consequently it had mixed population. In 1871, it had 1281 inhabitants: 673 Catholics, 385 Evangelists, 243 Jews. Many people emigrated to America from this town in 19th century.

I will show you how to work with this project. The quick rough search in that database produces four records from that area - two exact and two approximate due to misspelling. I retained only groom records here.

1. Catholic parish in Gołańcz [Gollantsch], entry # 8 in 1821 score: Groom: 100% => Adam Nalborski (24) + Joanna Makrzyńska (17)
2. Catholic parish in Gołańcz [Gollantsch], entry # 2 in 1822 score: Groom: 100% => Martinus Nalborski (23) + Rosalia Dąmbrowna (20)
3. Catholic parish in Chojna, entry # 3 in 1858 score: Groom: 87% => Joseph Nalberski (28) + Rosalia Szarwark (22). Possible misspelling
4. Catholic parish in Gąsawa [Gonsawa], entry # 5 in 1851 score: Groom: 76% ==> Jacobus Nalborksi (28) father: Valentinus, mother: Marianna Beleg
Antonina Trechogiaka (33) father: Simon, mother: Marianna. Definite misspelling: Nalborksi, should be Nalborski.

These records are clickable. After selecting record 1, say, you will get something like this:
Our database only provides basic information to identify the spouses. There is no liability for the accuracy, as it depends on the quality of the record and the skills of the transcriber. The full information about the marriage can only be found in the original records.

The original record for this marriage is held in the Archdiocesan Archive in Gniezno, Poland.
To obtain a certificate or digital copy, you have to download the genealogical research request form, fill it in and send back to the address metryki@archidiecezja.pl.

Further genealogical research is also offered there.

Archiwum Archidiecezjalne w Gnieznie
Ul. Kolegiaty 2
62-200 Gniezno
POLAND

WWW: archiwum.archidiecezja.pl

E-mail: metryki@archidiecezja.pl

But the detailed services are not free. I have not investigated how much they cost, but be prepared for about $10 for a photocopy of a single record, I guess.

Good luck.

Genealogy / Help finding info about Naliborski [23]

With all due respect, why do you think Naliborski family (if it existed in Poland as such) had any coat of arms? The postfix -ski does not necessary signify any nobility. In the break-up of the feudal system in Europe, many of the Polish peasants were given names from the estate on which they worked, or from the fauna and flora around them, and carried these names with them to America. They often added a "ski" signifying a family of titled ancestry, but which in many cases was not valid.

After double checking I only found one short record in Polish sources, listed in book (1), related to name Naliborski in Poland: "Naliborski Julian, a carpenter from Warsaw, taken prisoner from the battlefield, sent to Siberia to work, died in Karnyszłow in April 1864." BTW, I do not know where Karnyszłow is.

On the other hand the name Nalborski (without "i") is not unpopular in Poland. According to Polishtoledo database, [polishtoledo.com/lastnames.htm], there are 337 Nalborski names in Poland. Another database, MoiKrewni, lists 143 people named Nalborski, in 38 districts, with 20 of them living in Tczew, former Prussia. This name does not seem to be connected with any coat of arms either. You could try following this track. There is however one major problem with it: the majority, if not all, of American Naliborski are spelt with "i".

For example. the records of baptisms at St. Michael the Archangel Catholic Church, Radom, Washington County, Illinois lists zero Nalborski names, but eight baptized Naliborski kids (1895 - 1906), with seven parents or witnesses of that name. The parish's marriage records (1875-1931) list six brides or grooms and two witnesses with Naliborski/ska name. No Nalborski either.

The story of the early Polish immigration to Wisconsin, and particularly to Portage County, published here(2) and here(3), mentions Naliborski only once (but not Nalbolrski):


But the story starts with explanation that those immigrants came mostly from Prussia (or more exactly from the former Polish Royal Prussia, around Gdańsk). They came almost one generation after Norwegians, Germans (from Pennsylvania), Irish, etc., so they got the rough deal with land quality and price. Most of them could not speak English, but they communicated with their neighbours in other languages - including German, or even Latin. The very first Polish immigrant to Portage County was Michael Koziczkowski, a lesser Kashubian noble - Koziczkowski coat of arms,

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koziczkowski
from Kożyczkowo (today: Kartuzy County, Pomeranian Province) He initially called himself Michael Von Koziczkowski, until he realized that the titles do not work in America, and so he dropped the German's VON. Most other Polish names mentioned in that article, with few exceptions, sound like commoner names. But there are some Polish-German connections in terms of common business.

The only American Nalborski that shows up here and there in American sources is August S. Nalborski, listed here:karljanssen.com/ps02/ps02_095.htm, whom I mentioned in the previous message. He was born on Aug 18, 1861, in Golancz, (Great Poland) Poland. He and his brothers Emil and Clement were listed as butchers. On the other hand Emil and Clement Naliborski (with "i") appear in the St. Michael records, mentioned before. So there might have been some confusion regarding the spelling.

References:
(1) Pamiątka dla rodzin polskich. Cz. 1 : krótkie wiadomości biograficzne o straconych na rusztowaniach, rozstrzelanych, poległych na polu boju oraz zmarłych w więzieniach, na tułactwie i na wygnaniu syberyjskiem : 1861-1866 r., Nowolecki Aleksander, pbi.edu.pl/book_reader.php?p=40378&s=1

[Memorial for Polish families. Part 1: Brief biographical information about those hanged on the gallows, shot, killed on the battlefields, and perished in prisons and in exile in Siberia, 1861-1866, Nowolecki Aleksander]

(2)library.uwsp.edu/pcl/history/ourcounty/images/00000007.pdf

(3)rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wispags/history/ethnic-polish.htm l

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]

I'd rather watch some other story about Polish pilots, other than yet another Squadron 303 story; about Skalski's Circus in Africa perhaps, or stories of not-so-glamorous Polish bombers, such as No. 304 Polish Bomber (later Coastal) Squadron, flying bombing and anti-submarine patrols missions or attacking U-boats in French ports at nights.

The numbers say it all:

Bomber Command: 488 operational sorties for a total of 2481 hrs.
Total bomb load: 800 tons. 12 a/c lost. 102 airmen KIA or MIA, and 35 POW.

Coastal command: 2,451 operational sorties for a total of 21,331 hrs.
21 ton of bombs and 43 tons of mine dropped. 19 a/c lost. 106 airmen KIA or MIA. Total of 31 U-boat attacked: 2 sunk, 5 damaged. 16 attacks with results unknown or unconfirmed. Crews credited with 3 enemy a/c shot down , 3 probable and 4 damaged.

Genealogy / Seeking persons from Brzeziny [11]

dsprinting69


You have some secret info. You want to send it to somebody using PM. You are a new user. According to rules of this forum you cannot send anything via PM until you prove that you are not a random spammer. You prove it by posting minimum 5 messages. And I see that you have already collected five of them. So you are fully qualified user now to send PMs to other people here. Good!

As for me, I do not live in Poland and I have no better access to Polish phonebooks than you do. I might be more experienced in accessing some of this information online though. If no one else comes with better offer then PM me with those addresses and I'll try to see what I can do.

Genealogy / Seeking persons from Brzeziny [11]

This is what I am getting from you for trying to help. The previous message was an instruction in response for your help, but you obviously do not need it anymore.

In the past you did not asks me to contact you by mail, and I had no problem helping you. Nothing changed, I am willing to help, but not via email. You obviously do not understand that most users here do not make their email public to anyone, not even to old users.

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


But for the traitors, masons, Jews in disguise, German/Russian collaborators, bandits, communists, antichrists, nudists, papists, POpaprańcy, Pisuary, PF users, and so on… Anybody left? :-)

Genealogy / Seeking persons from Brzeziny [11]


I'll try to explain. Obviously "dsprinting" is not your registered name. It is displayed differently than my name for example - which is shown in bold and is clickable, so you can learn a bit about my past and current activity.

But if you are registered under another name (and if you still remember it), then login to the forum at the top of the page. If you forgot login/password, then discard the old name and re-register again. After login, post your query message again in the same genealogy section. Then, after you move a mouse over your name in the message board, you should see a pop-up message saying: threads:1 posts:1 joined: date….

That's you status. At the very top of the page you should see several words separated by vertical lines (pipe signs). One of them says Mail. Press it and you will enter into your mail for local private messages, a.k.a. PM. The interface is similar to what you use in gmail, but less sophisticated. You basically have one inbox and one outbox to use. At the moment both boxes are empty, unless there is a welcome message waiting for you in the inbox.

New users like you have no rights to send PMs to other users until they send several public messages first. So start generating them. Ask publicly, for example, those users who want to help you, to send you PM messages. Join some other public discussion/s and contribute. Soon you will have minimum five public messages sent and from then you will be fully qualified user of this forum.

Genealogy / Seeking persons from Brzeziny [11]


You, and many guys like you - coming here like meteorites, have it all wrong. Not many people will ever volunteer sending their email addresses to guests like you. I certainly would never do that. Have you ever heard about spamming by any chance? I'd rather keep my email clean.

My advice: Register, then ask to contact you privately (PM), and after you have sent several public messages, you would be able to sent back PMs as well.

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]


They got it all wrong. This generation has not earned any pilot wings yet and all they should do now is to quietly bask in possibility of a future glory on the scale of the squadron 303, one day - but hopefully won not by war, but by other means.

Discussions like this lead to nasty fights here, on youtube and elsewhere - with British-Polish name callings and total anger. Over-glamorizing selected few leads to these sort of things and to trivialization of the real history. It should be reminded from time to time that it was a joint war effort of many allies. We should pay respect to all of them from time to time - including those airmen from Polish Air Force in England.

Here are few numbers to reflect on - 2,165 Polish airmen have been killed during WWII (that's what it says on their war memorial in Northolt), 15 (some say 18) Polish squadrons were serving under RAF command, they suffered heavy losses - Polish bomber squadrons alone lost 929 airmen during 1940-1945, and 17,000-19,400 Poles (depending who is counting) have served in RAF structures during the war.

Some British people, such as Neville Bougourd, lovingly preserve memory of some of those brave airmen. Take a look at his blog, 304squadron.blogspot.com , devoted to squadron 304, and go back to his earliest entries from 2008, where he provides some interesting overviews.

Genealogy / Help finding info about Naliborski [23]

The bad news is, as you were already told - there is almost no connection between Naliborski name and Poland. One old record relates it to Great Poland province, another to small town Gołańcz in the same province, and that's about it. Statistically - nil. No Naliborski name appears in basic dictionaries of currently used surnames in Poland. There is though a young Polish tennis player named Joanna Nalborska, which only underlines the fact that to any rule there is always an exception.

But the good news is that you are not alone in this world and there are many people of that name in USA - specifically in Illinois and Michigan. But they do not have Polish sounding first names; they are Franks, Georges, Walters, Davids, Helens, Jessicas, etc. Some claim German, or - more specific - Prussian origin.

Check ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=naliborski

Related to Naliborski name, they collected there 73 census & voters lists, 102 Birth, Marriage and & Death certificates, 7 military records, 3 immigration records and 142 Member Family Trees established by people like you. Some services are free, some are free on trial basis - all you have to do is to sign in.

Genealogy / Looking for family of Bobala and Cubek from Niebieszczany [11]


Glad to be of help.


I am sorry, this does not look like sufficient information, since you are not sure of spelling of the names, and locations involved: Poland, Russia, Lithuania? The only specific location you mention is Kowno, but without connection to any specific name and circumstance. And Kowno is not a little village, as opposed to Niebieszczany. Given this - it is like searching for a needle in a haystack. Sorry, I cannot help you here, unless there are some very concrete data provided.

Genealogy / Looking for family of Bobala and Cubek from Niebieszczany [11]

southern girl: Most of the data you provided are not much of use to me, as your general adviser. :-) However, they would be of importance to someone digging detailed parish data in Poland, etc. Make sure, however, not to use any americanized first names, but Polish, or optionally German ones. In 1903 this area was under Austrian administration, so names like Johann could be possibly acceptable.

Johann (Jan) Olejasz/Olejarz - OK. NOT - John Olejasz.
Marya (old Polish spelling) or Maria Fal - OK. NOT Mary Fall.

There are two persons in Niebieszczany you might want to contact: a local priest and a teacher of English from the Junior High School in Niebieszczany. I can only guess that the priest receives many similar inquiries from US, so some donation towards a new altar in the Niebieszczany church, or something, would be of important incentive. Do not use a traditional mail option, since this might be very slow. Think about using email, with phone follow up. I do not know whether the priest speaks any English, so - if you do not speak Polish - try to have some of your Polish speaking friends handy for the phone talk. Try to solicit a help of the English teacher in Niebieszczany first, using email contact. The school has one email address, so you would have to specify the name of the person you want to talk.

Here are the contact data:

=====
Gimnazjum w Niebieszczanach (Junior High School, Niebieszczany)
Niebieszczany 492
38-500 Sanok
Poland

Phone: 011-48-13-467-50-05 (Format: 011=international call from US, 48=Poland, 13=Krosno, xxx xx xx = local number)
email: gimnieb@poczta.onet.pl
gimniebieszczany1.vgh.pl/viewpage.php?page_id=12

Pani JOANNA STOROSZCZUK-JANUSZ - English language teacher (język angielski)
Ks. Henryk Dobosz - Religion
========

Ks. Henryk Dobosz
Parafia św. Mikołaja (St. Nicolas Parish)
Niebieszczany 154
38-500 Sanok

Phone: 011-48-13-467 58 99
No email address as far as I know
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parafia_św._Mikołaja_w_Niebieszczanach
(to see a picture of the church)

========
Joanna Storoszczuk-Janusz (the English teacher) has her Facebook page here:
pl-pl.facebook.com/people/Joanna-Storoszczuk-Janusz/555998312

You need to register first before you contact her.

Good luck.

Genealogy / Looking for family of Bobala and Cubek from Niebieszczany [11]

Apparently there is something wrong with the name Cubek, since it does not appear in any of the three databases I tried. All three of them list Olejarz, but only one shows few Olejasz names. I would really re-examine that last name too if I were you.

1. polishtoledo.com/lastnames.htm
Bobola (415), Cubek (0), Fal (769), Olejarz (2746)

2. forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,29088,71692198,72206109,Re_Nazwiska_w_P olsce_od_A_do_Z_M.html?v=2

Bobola (? - Krosno), Cubek (0), Fal (? - Krosno), Olejarz (2747-Przemyśl)

3. Słownik frekwencyjny nazwisk polskich V.09.2008
(c) 2008 Jerzy Kazojć - wszelkie prawa zastrzeżone

78.9.31.5/server1/slownik-frekwencyjny-nazwisk.pdf

Bobola(415), Cubek (0), Fal (0), Olejarz (2747), Olejasz (20)

I suspect that Cubek should be actually Czubek. This change produces a miracle when googling: Bobola Czubek Fal Olejarz. The first three entries are from "Nasza Klasa" - both Primary School and Junior High School in Niebieszczany. Notice that the village name was not explicitly included in the search pattern but yet it came on top of the search.

Now, doing the detailed search by specific names in Gymnasium in Niebieszczany, nk.pl/school/58189/users, we get:

Olejarz - 1 name
Czubek - 3 names
Bobola - 5 names
Fal - 19 names
They attended the Junior High School in Niebieszczany between years 1999 and 2011, that is in the period after the latest school reform in Poland; that is, breaking the High Schools into Junior High Schools (Gymnasium) and the Senior High Schools (Lyceum).

The data for the Primary School goes way back to the year 1952.
Olejarz - 1 name
Czubek - 5 names
Bobola - 6 names
Fal - 27 names
Only some names of the Fal family go as far back as to 1970s, the other names are quite recent - as if the Czubek and Bobola families have re-established themselves in the village after 1980s or so.

Genealogy / Looking for family of Bobala and Cubek from Niebieszczany [11]

There is village Niebieszczany, municipality of Sanok, district (county) Sanok, currently Podkarpackie (Subcarpathian) Province (used to be Krosno Province). English wikipedia has only few lines about the village en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niebieszczany. You can find much more in Polish wikipedia:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niebieszczany
Use Google translate if you have to.

The following website may be of use: Niebieszczany War Memorial. It lists "People from the Parish of Niebieszczany, woj. Krosno, Who Died During WWII and Action Vistula (Akcja Wisla), 1939-1947",rootsweb.ancestry.com/~polwgw/archives/niebieszczanywm.html. There is a short explanation at the bottom of this message of the meaning of the above.

The list includes the following names:
Józef and Stanisław Bobola (not Bobala)
Andrzej, Jan, Józef, Melchior and Wiktoria Fal
Tadeusz Olejarz (not Olejasz)
There is no Cubek name on that list. You are definitely on the right track - just be patient and google extensively.

During WWII there was an outpost of Home Army (Armia Krajowa, AK) there. In 1945-1946 an independent anti-communist operational battalion NSZ was active in the village. In 1947 Niebieszczany was a part of Operation Vistula - a forced resettlement of Ukrainian minority, including £emkos and Boykos to Northern and Western regions of Poland.

Law / Poland has too much redtape [14]


Well, I was officially asked last year by the city of Poznań to "wymeldować się" from the cooperative apartment I "owned" ages ago. Apparently somebody bought it after I left the country and after my former wife gave it later back to the cooperative. However since I was still listed at that address the new owner could not trade it, I guess, or he just did not feel very comfortable with a ghost in his apartment. Consequently he commenced an official procedure and the city of Poznań went through a lot of trouble - first trying to find my address through official channels and then through my daughter. They finally solicited my email address from her (this was as far as she was going to give them) and this is what they sent me one day via email.

URZĄD MIASTA POZNAŃ
... address header with all the trimmings

Pan Boletus

In the context of an administrative proceeding, to which you are a party, we would like you to provide us with your mailing address in order to send you notification of the initiated proceeding and to give you the opportunity to participate in it. Due to the fact that you are staying outside the country, a photocopy of previously collected evidence will be sent to you upon reception of your correspondence address.

If you decide to check out from the permanent residence at the premises No. 1 at 9999 Pani Dulska Street in Poznan, please kindly complete the attached form "Notification of check out from permanent residence," and together with a brief cover letter and your mail address, send it to our Department by mail (referring to the case number xxxx).

We kindly explain that according to Article 15 of April 10, 1974 Act - regarding registry of the population and of identity cards (unified text: Gazette of 2006, No. 139, item. 993, with later amends) - paragraph 1 clearly specifies the responsibilities of the person who leaves the place of permanent or temporary residence for more than 3 months. It states: "A person who leaves the place of permanent or temporary residence for more than 3 months, is obliged to check out at the office of the municipality, not later than at the day of leaving." Paragraph 2 of Article 15 states that: "The office of the municipality shall grant the check out decision on request of a party or ex officio if a person left the place of permanent or temporary residence for more than 3 months and failed to check out."

If you have any doubts or questions, please contact this Office by phone or by e-mail. The case is handled by the specialist Hermenegilda Urzędas, Tel: 999 - 999-99-99

Sincerely yours
Hermenegilda Urzędas

I was laughing so much, but I finally obliged the Urząd - mostly because I did not want them to bother my daughter.

Law / Poland has too much redtape [14]


Not really. Bureaucracy crosses all political, cultural and historical divides; it happily grows by pullulation.

Take a look at this series of pictures by Dutch photographer Jan Banning and think about Polish reality:

amusingplanet.com/2011/05/bureaucrats-around-world-photo-series.html

I have not had such a laughter for a long time. Enjoy!

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


source: Jerzy Urban
[Just a reminder: Urban, press spokesman for WRON, first planted the Kukliński's story to Washington Post then he reaped his harvest during his June 6, 1986 conference]. Good choice Harry.

I am not going to respond to that. Other people, including Kukliński himself, have done it many times already during the last 20 years or so. Dig it out!

But let me point out to the article of Adam Michnik in Gazeta Wyborcza, May 10-11, 1998, entitled "The Trap of Political Beautification" [actually reprinted in 2009 as "On Col. Ryszard Kukliński writes Adam Michnik - year 1998. The article is actually criticizing Kukliński for engaging in the politics of the Right during his visit to Poland in 1998 and the attempts of his beautification as a hero. However, Michnik closes with these words: I think that it is time to understand that in Poland there will always be some who consider Kuklinski a hero and some who consider Jaruzelski a hero, and we will have to live with that.

Now Harry, please, we already know your opinion on this subject very well - as well as those of Delphi and JonniM - and this is just enough. Contrary to what one father of propaganda said - repetitive naming a blue thing as red will not actually change it to red. There is no way you can convince or convert anybody here.

There are many good sources available out there on Internet - much more authoritative, interesting and informative than what you can offer here during your hysterical forays.

Here is one: "The Vilification and Vindication of Colonel Kuklinski, Entangled in History" by Benjamin B. Fisher.

Yes, this article is written by somebody from CIA library staff, but if you find me a better, more objective and thorough source I will buy you a cookie. It is really worth reading.

So please, stop being such bores and let us all go for a walk or something.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


That's the only contra-argument that make sense to me. I'll think about it, till tomorrow. But I have to go now.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]

What half-truth and what evasion? Care to elaborate?

Let me remind you that my first response to your post was not about Kukliński, but about your statement that a soldier never breaks his oath, or something like this. And it is still about it. But you just helped me to take a stronger position regarding the man himself. I am now convinced that he was right. Good job..


Surely I know. That country was called Poland or would be Poland. Just going back to the Great War and later - there were many Polish voluntary military units. They all swore their own oaths and some refused taking foreign oaths.

Just few examples:
+ voluntary Polish Legions, I and III Brigades, refused taking additional oath of loyalty to Kaiser Wilhelm in 1917.
+ voluntary Polish Army in France 1918, commanded by Józef Haller
+ voluntary insurgents of Greater Poland Uprising 1918-1919. They also have their oath too.
+ voluntary Home Army
+ voluntary Cichociemni
+ voluntary Szare Szeregi, Grey Ranks, scouting
+ Even communist People's Guard was voluntary
+ Polish AK units operating near Wilno refused swearing Russian loyalty oath, after being disarmed. Consequently, they were sent to Kaługa and gulags near Moscow.

There are no other Polish military oaths, like those enacted in 1950 and 1952, where conscripts were swearing their obedience to a political system, its authority, its government, its protection of working class (but no other class), to friendship with Soviet Army, etc. Not even those enacted earlier in 1944 and 1947.

Contrary to those, the newest one, 1992 military oath, is plain simple and not politicized:
I, soldier of Polish Army, swear to faithfully serve the Polish Republic, to defend its independence and borders. To uphold the Constitution, to guard the honour of the Polish soldier, to defend the military flag. For the cause of my homeland in need I will not spare my own blood or life. So help me God.

So, here is no obedience to Soviet Union, to Tusk or to Kaczyński, or to NATO, etc. And, as long as we are not at war, the military is professional, and their oath is voluntary too. No oath, no professional soldiery.


No, but I can refuse taking any oath whatsoever on the basis of civil disobedience of any sort, including moral and ethical reasons.

You must have heard about "Ruch Wolność i Pokój" (Freedom and Peace Movement) (1885-1992), a Polish pacifist organization, opposing communism, and about Marek Adamkiewicz, who - after refusal of taking the military oath - was convicted and imprisoned in December 1984 r. in Stargard Szczeciński prison. And Marek Adamkiewicz refused taking that oath, for precisely these reasons, which I emphasized in the post #56.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


Why do I even bother arguing with you if you conveniently ignore my arguments and just repeat your own ones ad nausea. So for the last time:

The 1952 military oath was enforced on all the conscripts, whether they liked it or not. It was executed under threat and, as such, it had no moral or ethical value. It is not the same as swearing something voluntarily, as in the scouting, professional military, underground military organizations, etc. So stop dignifying the PRL military oath by bringing it to the same level as the rest.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


Try Polish People's Republic.
And you also have no clue what kind of deal he made with US authority, Think for example about dual citizenship:


So let us stop here with your old boring tune and go back to the topic.

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]

JohnnM, you are not serious and you do not really believe in what you are saying, are you? I bet, given other circumstances, you would be equally hotly defending and promoting the opposite point of view. I like this idea of Ironside to quote the military oaths. Here is a little reality check for you, kiddo:

Let me translate for you the content of the military oath of the Polish People's Army, enacted on November 22, 1952 (Official Journal of December 1, 1952 - Dz.U.52.46.310). This is the oath, which the soldier Kukliński had to take, along many generations of conscripts - until June 1988, when the most shameful parts of the oath have been removed or slightly mitigated. Let me remind you that no one, medically qualified, could possibly refuse serving in the Polish army when summoned. The alternative was jail. Read and reflect on how anyone with a bit of brains could possibly take this oath seriously. I took it too, with my fingers crossed behind my back. Go then an brag how you would valiantly oppose the commies, or something, in my place.

I, the citizen of the Polish People's Republic, standing in the ranks of the Polish Army, swear to the Polish Nation to be an honest, disciplined, courageous and vigilant soldier, to exactly follow the orders of my superiors and the provisions of the regulations, to closely keep military and state secrets, and to never stain the honour and dignity of Polish soldier.

I swear to serve the country with all my strength, to steadfastly defend the rights of working people, enshrined in the Constitution, to firmly stand on guard of people's authority, to remain faithful to the Government of the Polish People's Republic. I swear to unwaveringly guard the freedom, independence and borders of the Polish People's Republic against pursuits of imperialism, to adamantly stand on guard of peace, in a brotherly alliance with the Soviet Army and other allied armies, and, if necessary, sparing no blood, no life to fight valiantly in defence of the Fatherland, for the sacred cause of independence, freedom and happiness of the people. If I break this solemn oath of fidelity to my Fatherland, let the stern hand of peoples' justice reaches me.

I do not want to convert this topic to the reality check of early years following 1952, when the "stern hand of peoples' justice" still carried more than just an empty threat. So let me quote just one expression: Each provocateur or lunatic who dares to raise his hand against the people's authority, be sure that his hand will be chopped off by the people's government! - Cyrankiewicz, 1956

History / Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński. [145]


European history provides quite a few examples when a professional mercenary's vow was broken by condottieri at will. Mamertines anyone? Machiavelli describes many such cases: desertion, joining forces with enemy, switching sides.

I vaguely remember mercenary betrayals taking place during wars of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy against Lorraine and Suisse, and his death at Nancy.

Polish allies at times: Crimean Tatars and Cossacks were also prone to betrayal.

General Patrick Gordon, a venerated Scottish mercenary, after already switching sides from the Polish to the Muscovite one (honourably though), was almost given a deadly blow to his division during 1695 campaign against Turks, because a German engineer betrayed to Turks the weak points of the Muscovite lines.

So it looks that there is a difference between romantic theory and practice.

Love / More loveless sex of Poles living in the regained lands [73]

1. You get it right: 4 : 6, non-evil provinces losing
2. SE provinces - but you are actually right here
3. Warsaw is in the middle - 19.8

So, your conclusions are not justified. All you can say is that some NW provinces are "evil", more C and E provinces are also "evil", and the SE corner is traditional. Does it surprise you?

But you might want to check some other factors too. Why does the SE corner is so lazy with children production? Average 1? Phew!

Love / More loveless sex of Poles living in the regained lands [73]

I would like to recall the "Demographic Yearbook 2011" of Central Statistical Office (GUS), [stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/PUBL_rs_rocznik_demograficzny_2011.pdf]


The sections (34-55) of the Yearbook , dealing with divorces across provinces, may be of interest. Make sure that you compare the relative, not the absolute, data. Draw your own conclusion, but here is just one example.

A shortened list of divorces in the >100,000 towns, per 10,000 population
(
(26.8 Gorzów Wlkp)
(26.7 Toruń)
(26.0 Włocławek)
(25.7 Szczecin)
(25.6 Bydgoszcz)
(25.5 Płock)
(24.2 Białystok)
(24.3 Elbląg)
(24.2 Częstochowa)
(24.0 Zielona Góra)
....
(18.4 Poznań)
(17.5 Kielce)
(16.8 Lublin)
(15.8 Kraków)
(15.2 Rzeszów))

If the Western and Northern provinces are to be considered the rootless evils, why do we have so many towns from Central and Eastern Poland among the 10 top divorce culprits, including Toruń, Częstochowa and Białystok?

Perhaps, as somebody already pointed it out, this might be caused by internal migration. Take a look at some plots at the end of the GUS presentation. For example, the internal migration plot shows sharp peaks, going both ways (rural=>urban and urban=>rural). The peaks are centered around 30-34 year old men, and 25-29 year old women. Do not be mislead by relatively small values of these peaks: You would need to integrate those plots to get some ideas about total numbers - or better yet: go the section "internal migration" and compare the tables. And do not forget about the external migration either.