News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


Germany is doing precisely what Nato expects them to do here. The involvement there is sufficient, nothing to brag about but also nothing to complain about.


The agreement is that all Nato members are expected to spend 2% of their budget on defence by 2024, Germany has pledged to do just that and is increasing its' budget for years now. Again, no reason to complain.


Well, they spent approx. 1tn on their stupid invasion of Iraq. If they had listened to France and Germany who told Bush that this was a terrible idea, they might have been able to spend that money elsewhere. The USA is the last one to lecture others about their commitment to Nato, they are after all the only country who invoked Natos' help after 9/11, and many Europeans have since then died in Afghanistan.

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]

@TheOther


Or "NATO Enhanced Forward Presence", and Lithuania....

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


Even if that was true (which is very questionable), Poland benefited too. A perfect example where both interests aligned.


Completely ridiculous, Germany under Merkel has been the only European adversary that Putin took seriously in the last 3 years.

Without Germany there would have been no coordinated European response to the Russian agression in the Ukraine.

Without Germany the sanctions regime would already have been lifted at the insistance of countries like Italy.

Without Merkel brokering the Minsk II peace agreement, the Ukraine would already have collapsed.

Germany simply draws the line at dangerous and senseless provocations. But no doubt history will acknowledge Merkel as Putin's most skilled and effective opponent.

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand the basic principles of international law.


Even disregarding all the territoriy (and thus property) Germany lost to Poland, it is factually wrong to claim that Germany never paid any money. Germany paid bns e.g. via foundations.


Because it is obvious to any neutral observer that the Polish claims are unfounded and an attempt by the Polish government to get domestic support. Anyone who has access to any neutral media that actually covers the story in greater detail than e.g. the British yellow press could tell you as much.

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


You are right if we talk about treaties signed under Civil law. However as pointed out to you several times, international law does consider this as an argument. And it certainly does not consider this as an argument when succesive governments acknowledge the treaty. Otherwise all peace treaties would be invalid. Political pressure is not an argument for declaring a treaty invalid.


That is not how international law works. Germany does not have to defend anything, Berlin will simply point to the existing treaties. It is up to Poland to prove that those treaties are somehow invalide, something that usually has a very slim chance of success I might add. Just to give you an example:

Germany and the Czech Republic currently disagree about the nature of the Munich agreement (and the aftereffect, when the president of the CSR had to agree to the dissolution of his country.). Both declared it as void, but for Berlin the Agreement was only nullified after it was broken by Hitler, whereas Prague considers it as void from the beginning. Yet Prague never went to court over it, even though we know that actual physical pressure was applied on the signatory party (the very ill Czech president had to wait for hours and was heavily pressured and close to a heart attack when he signed it), because - aside from the fact that it would be a needless provovation - as Czech lawyers have pointed out, it is far from clear that prague could win.

And mind you this treaty was never confirmed by succesive - including democratic - governments and we know that not only political pressure was involved. Treaties are almost never declared invalid without the approval of all signatories, especially after such a long time. Those are the facts.

@Dirk diggler: I'd suggest that you read a bit about international law before you continue this debate. You are right, none of us are (probably) lawyers, but there are certain fundamentals everybody can understand when read. And unfortunately, it seems that you either are oblivious of them or fail to acknowledge them. Otherwise you would know that your cited arguments ("puppet government" "against the will of the people") have no relevance here.

Remember, international law does not apply exlusively to democratic states, but is supposed to be applied to all countries in the world. Many of them are neither democratic nor completely independent (not that "independent" is really verifiable in this multilateral age).

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


They could not give any stronger guarantee than those which have been given by past governments, including the one given by Mazowiecki.Because there is no better guarantee according to international law than several treaties signed by successive governments that confirm each other. Mind you this was done by the insistance of the Mazowiecki government, who insisted that the treaties of 1990/91 confirmed previous treaties. Which is why the German-Polish border treaty is phrased almost identical to the treaty of Zgorzelec.


Greece received 169m€.

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


This is not true. The treaty specifically refers to Germany, not East Germany.

I found a German copy of the Treaty. The important part is here:


This is not surprising, considering that back then, the GDR was in the eyes of the Warsaw Pact the only legitimate German government, just as the FRG was the only legitimate German state from the Western point of view. And as pointed out to you several times, claiming that the Polish government back then was not "legitimate" or a puppet is not an argument that is accepted in international courts.


True, but Poland received significantly more than e.g. Greece, even disregarding the lost German territory that are now Poland (which morally speaking should be included).


Because Israel signed different treaties with Germany than Poland.


Based on what has transpired between Polish and German diplomats during the last two years, it is rather easy to predict how the meeting went. No doubt the Polish side admitted that there is no legal basis for their argument and that the government is just raising the issue for domestic reasons. They now try to find some sort of solution that helps Warsaw save face, most likely some sort of foundation.

There are only two ways how this will end:

a) Some sort of foundation where Germany donates maybe 1bn€.
b) Warsaw decides to escalate things for domestic reasons, goes to court, loses and claims that Germany had bribed the court and paints Poland yet again as victim of German plots.


That is something Poland can be proud of.

News / Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar [491]


What kind of weak position are you refering to? Because as I explained to you several times, in legal terms the case could not look better for Berlin. Warsaw has nothing to back up its' demands, except with the claims that the existing agreements are somehow invalid, which doesn't make sense according to international law.


More than a dent, all of those cases are settled. Israel still receives money e.g. for taking care of elderly Holocaust survivors on the basis of existing treaties. Poland on the other hand has signed treaties several times that rule out the possibility of future reparations. You are falling for PiS propaganda if you really think that Germany could be forced to pay anymore reparations. Sure, perhaps Berlin will donate a few millions for some foundation, but nothing that could be viewed as reparations.

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]

@Bieganski


None of this sentence makes even remotely sense or is based on anything in reality.

Travel / My Experience in Poland (compared to Germany) [100]

@Alltimegreat1


I assume you are refering to the AfD? If so, you are twice mistaken. Firstly several parties are advocating for more public referendums (among them e.g. the Green party) and secondly this is not the reason why the AfD is denounced as undemocratic (which is an accusation that is hardly used, because there are several points of criticism tha are more valid).

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]

@Dirk diggler


And negotiations for the new budget will start in a year, and as said before, there is now a strong lobby for redirecting those funds to countries who have been burdened to pick up the tap for the rest of the EU in the refugee crisis.


Doing so would be economic suicide for Poland. Poland exports and imports more to Germany than to its' next three trading partner, and with Brexit, this number might even become bigger. As you said, those structural funds are no gift, they are granted out of solidarity to help poorer countries develop their economies which benefits all trading partners in the long. But if Poland continues to spit on such solidarity for too long, it will become more difficult to justify it.

atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pol/


I trust that the majority of the Polish people would react in a rational manner once it has been pointed out to them that genuin refugees (from Syria) pose no threat to them. Sadly, so far PiS has not adressed the issue in a rational manner and instead used it to get some cheap brownie points with nationalists.


Genuine refugees will be happy to live in safety. Those who are not (like Tunisians) won't be part of the relocation program.


Because unlike refugees from the Middle East who require language courses and education, those refugees are of great economic benefit to Poland:

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland

Has Poland actively asked for help by relocating those refugees? Of course not, because it values their economic potential far too much.

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]


There won't be any reparations since the issue has been long settled. And the issue might cost Poland far more than that. Chances are very high that the structural funds for Poland will be cut in half in the next budget session.


Poland is still not contributing to the EU budget, but actually its' largest recepient so it has a weak hand in this matter. Certainly weaker than the UK did. And it might find itself in conflict with other countries that don't appreciate its low wage policies like France.


True, but this is more of a Nato matter. The UK has a seat on the UN Security Council and Nuclear weapons. Except as a buffer against Russia, Poland has little to offer in terms of power projection et al.


Perhaps, but if Merkel will deliver on her promise to almost double the military budget until 2024, this will change. Mind you, my original argument was not that Poland had nothing to offer, it certainly does, but its' importance for the EU is simply not as great as the UK was and even there the EU refused to accomodate. Breaking the rules of the EU on several cases will end badly for Poland, no doubt about it.

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]

As far as I know, there is still a substantial majority of Polish people who support Poland's EU membership. So a large number of people want to stay in the EU, but also want Poland to defy Bruessels. This is not how the EU works, and with good reason. Imagine any time a decision is made by all membership and those who feel disadvantaged by it would simply refuse to acknowledge it and cite public support, we would never get anything done.

Honestly, if the Polish people decide that they'd rather leave the EU than adhere to its' rules, I'd be fine with this. But they shouldn't expect that Warsaw could stay a member, take the structural funds and refuse to show any solidarity when other states need it. The EU refused to compromise over its' principles with the UK, and unlike Poland, the UK was both a net payer and highly important for European security. Poland is neither.

This is the same in any larger democracy. I assume that like in most countries, the central government in Warsaw has areas where it can make decisions that affect its' regions. The regions can probably challenge it on a legal level, but once the courts decide that the decision was lawful, they have to accept it.

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]


You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that you have no interest in helping those people, so why should we use an argument for which to acknowledge you lack the basic decency?


Those "rules" exist since the treaties of Nice/Lisboa, when it was decided that decisions could be made by qualified majorities. This is merely one of the many cases in which they are applied. The rest of your post is also of course nonsense.



Or they die through coal pollution, yet people support the decision of the Polish government to increase the use of coal. That might be economically sensible, but it will also kill possibly thousands over the years.

theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/12/european-coal-pollution-premature-deaths


Now, if only he decided to do something about this. But I guess spending 700bn€ on military is more important... .

News / Berlin terrorist attack -- Poland's ethnic homogeneity a true blessing [436]


1. Democratically elected government are elected for the full time of their term, of course they had the right to make such decisions.

2. We have (soon) 27 democratically elected governments in the EU. If we were to postpone decisions whenever an election looms, the EU would get even less done.

3. Supranational organizations like the EU only work with consistency. You can't have a new government possibly challenge every decision made by their predecessor, especially if the decision would have been made anyway.

4. PiS has no ground to attack the legitimacy of the decision. The rules of the EU plainly state that decisions made by a qualified majority are binding for every member state. If Poland has no desire to follow simple rules like this, it should consider if it has any future in the EU.

News / Two Polish Men on trial for brutally murdering German Pop Star in homophobic attack [53]


Thankfully we are living in Europe, not in other parts of the world where gay people have no reason to expect any form of violent reaction to a polite question for sex. I am sure gay people can in Poland ask anyone they want for sex without any fear of reprisal too, It is not a form of "enlightenment", it is a form of simple human decency.

News / Two Polish Men on trial for brutally murdering German Pop Star in homophobic attack [53]


I found a German article that went into more detail what happened to him. One of the culprits apparantly sat on him to make sure that he couldn't move, breaking several ribs in the process. They smashed a wooden chair in his face, knocking most of his teeth out. They also tortured him witch cigarettes.

They inserted several items so deeply into his rectum, that they damaged his intestines like his liver. They apparantly found the dna of the suspects on several items that were used.

He was found in the room he shared with the suspects, and no one was seen leaving or entering it.


Are you implying that physical violence in any form would be justified in a situation like this? He asks two adult man for sex, there is no reason to believe that he intimidated them in any way (which is ridiculous anyway, since he was alone against two younger man who according to the description given by some newspapers, are extremely muscular) and in return they viciously torture him to death.

News / Two Polish Men on trial for brutally murdering German Pop Star in homophobic attack [53]

@Ironside


You should inform yourself about the case before speculate.

This article here tells us that both culprit fled the country, which is the reason they are only now brought to court. The evidence seems to be overwhelming though, according to another article I read in German they found their DNA on the tool that was used to violate him.

thelocal.de/20170913/two-go-on-trial-for-brutal-homophobic-murder-of-1990s-pop-star-in-berlin-hostel


So every person who tries to pick up someone in a bar/hotel whatever should expect to be horrifically murdered? It is not like he went to some backyard, he was staying in the hotel for some time already because he left his partner.


Who knows what those sick people think. There are always sickos who deliberately injure their victims like this, they perhaps thought this was some kind of ironic punishment.

News / Two Polish Men on trial for brutally murdering German Pop Star in homophobic attack [53]

I know the internet can be a dark place, but it is still hard for me to accept that someone could leave a comment like this.


An innocent, legally upstanding man got viciously tortured to death without any provocation and this is how some people comment this?

News / Tragedy of Polish couple; Polish woman repeatedly raped in Italy, her partner almost killed [101]

The rate of murder per citizen is still higher in Poland than e.g. Germany. But of course neither Western Europe nor Poland come close to the level of criminal activity that is Serbia.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


Sure, whatever. It wasn't Germany though that e.g. participated in the illegal Iraq war of 2003, or turned their back on the many refugees entering Europe as a later consequence this war.


Which has nothing to do with current German television. Honestly if you wre to actually watch it you would never make such claims.


Just read a few history books. There are lot that illustrate how Polish officials (both in London and under Stalin's control) wanted German territory and those demands increased over the course of the war. Stalin made the decision, but he knew that he had their support doing so. This is a historical fact and not up to debate.


It is a matter of fact that the Western governments were sympathic towards Polish demands because they considered their wishes as justified. Poland could also argue that the annexation of those territories would make their border to Poland more defensible, which again made sense.


Which is why we have the treaties of 1953, 1970 and 1990 too.


For once, the German territories had far more economic value that the territories lost to the east. Secondly, Poland received a lot of territory from Germany, this is in itself an compensation for what has been done by the Germans. That the SU decided to annex East Poland is on them, and if anything Poland should ask Russia for compensation. Honestly, how anyone can still argue that Poland received no compensation from Germany despite a) a large part of Germany's territory b)reparations from the GDR, if however little c)reparations by the FRG and d) political support from 1990 onwards to help it become a stable democracy and join the EU is beyond me.


Germany has done both then. It payed reparations as late as 1990 and has been of assistance to Poland ever since, particulary in allowing them to join the EU when many countries were against it (particulary France). Hopefully Berlin will also help Poland survive the PiS government without lasting damage to its' democratic institutions.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


This is not entirely true. Polish officials actively asked Stalin for German territory as compensation, although Stalin declined to give them everything they asked for (including Rügen and Bautzen). Of course the decision was made by Stalin, but the claim for compensation was one of the key arguments made by Polish officials (even those who lived in London) as to why those territories should be given to Poland. So yes, they very much count as reparation.


Someone has been reading his Breitbart alright.

@Crow


I have really no idea what you are talking about here Apparantly the Jews did something to Slavs (when, where and how?)?

@Ironside


So you are insisting on ignoring the treaties of 1953, 1970 and 1990/91 to which links have been provided on this very thread? Am I supposed to print out copies, drive to your home and present them to your face until you acknowledge them?


Do you also know that visiting those death camps is de cato mandatory for every German pupil (although they often visit for practical reasons camps in Germany)? Every German knows Ausschwitz and "Arbeit macht frei", nobody here would believe that they were run by anyone but Germans. Just to clarify, during my time at school, I once talked with a Holocaust survivor (who visited schools) and I visited with my class KZ Theresienstadt in the Czech Republic. We also once visited a small KZ in France whose name escapes me at the moment.


Considering that Germany is one of the best examples on how a deeply anti-democratic and anti-semitic society can develop into a mature democracy that has once again become for Jewish immigration (particulay Berlin), I think Germany has a lot it can teach to Poland, especially since Poland is currently struggling with antidemocratic tendencies and has so far struggled to acknowledge its' antisemitic problem both in past and present. German politicians should certainly be more outspoken in case PiS continues to erode the rule of law in Poland. Anything else would be harmful to the interest of the Polish people to whom Germany owes a great moral debt.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]

@Ironside


Poland received one quarter of Germany's pre-war territory as compensation. That alone is worth more than any other country received as reparation.


Which has already happened as stated before, Poland received German territory and later money from the FRG.


If you knew something about modern day Germany, you would never make such a conclusion. We are constantly reminded of German crimes and documentations e.g. about the uprising in Warsaw are shown in regular intervalls. Nobody denies are whitewashes anything, and as stated some time before, leading politicians are constantly reflecting about those crimes in public speeches.

Poland on the other hand has a dangerous tendency of overlooking its' antisemtic past, but this is another issue not related to the topic at hand.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


She will, if Poland indeed seeks further reparations. So far the Polish government has yet to decide whether or not it starts an official request, until then Merkel won't do anything. And again, there are legal documents to support this view, namely the treaties of 1953, 1970, 1990 and 1991. Poland will have to argue that those treaties do not suffice, the burden of proof will be on Poland.


Poland received one quarter of Germany's territory, including a lot of arts and treasure like the Berlinka treasure it has legally speaking no right to and received several bns in reparation, and received political support for its' ascencion to the EU. I agree that this is not sufficient to cover all costs, but Poland received more than other countries and you can't reasonably expect the great-grandchildren to pay additional money for the crimes of their great-grandfathers.

If anything, Poland has more reason to be angry with Russia, who annexed a lot of their territory and failed to provide them with meaningful reparations from East Germany as per the Potsdam agreement. It is estimated that the SU extracted reparations that were worth 110bn€ from East Germany, which almost exclusively went to Russia.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


Crucially, concerning the topic of this thrad, it doesn't question the fact that the issue of reparations between Germany and Poland is closed.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


According to this German Wikipedia article, the last ruling in this regard was made by the German Supreme Court:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtslage_Deutschlands_nach_1945#cite_note-29
According to this article, the argument is accepted, but historians point out that it is more a Legal fiction. Honestly i have yet to found a decent explanation for this, I guess this is a problem only lawyers can come up with.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


A common misconception, often found even in German literature.

According to a ruling made by the German Supreme Court the FRG is actually identical with the Third Reich from a legal point of view, just not in its' territory. This makes little to no difference in practice mind you.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


It is as pointed out several times before from a legal point of view very dumb. It only makes sense for them because they want to motivate their voters and deflect from criticism by the EU.


As evidenced by the link provided by Bobko, Poland has waved the issue of reparation for Germany, not the GDR. Mind you, back then the only legitimate German government in the eyes of the Warsaw Pact was the GDR, so the distinction is only theoretical.

History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars? [299]


Mind you, it would be wrong to lay all the blame on a single group of actors. If there was anything all the political actors in Poland could agree on back then, it was the demand of the final recognition of the Western Polish border (which was never in question in Germany, but Kohl insisted that such a binding legal agreement could only be made after German reunification, not before).


I thought PiS called the agreement of 1953 invalid, thus admitting that such an agreement indeed happened. The treaty itself received little attention until PiS brought it up, because the Warsaw treaty in 1970 and the treaties of 1990 and 1991 are deemed more important overall and have settled the issue conclusively.


The issue of reparations (and minority rights for Germans in Poland) was intensely discussed between Kohl and Mazowiecki. This is easily verifiable in any decent historical book about the German reunification. Both sides agreed that any large claims against Germany would be harmful for Polish interests because a) the issue had been largely settled with the treaties of 1953 and 1970 b) it would in return cause Germans expelled from Western Poland seek reparations c) Poland had no way to enforce those claims and no German government could agree to them and survive d) Poland recognized that it would need German support to win access to the EU and that there were huge opportunities for economic cooperation.

@Bobko Thanks for the link, my university library has full digital access to the book, so I might be reading in once I have more time in a few weeks.

News / Roman Polanski accused of unlawful sex with a minor [403]


I wonder, did they make any legal changes in response to this case afterwards?

I mean it is not despicable per se to offer plea bargains in such cases where there is no physical evidence (at least that is what I have read) for the rape and just the testimony of the victim. While this is often enough for the conviction, it can be incredibly traumatizing for the victim (especially when it is a child) to testify and get questioned by a team of highly paid lawyers, additionally to the media attention.