History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


I think a lot of people will be. This is going to be talked about a lot. We can expect a lot of huffing and puffing as well as spurious denials from people who haven't bothered to read the facts. That and "oh, but they did it too, in X, Y or Z" as if that somehow justifies it. The only thing that is important is that which is historically provable. That and compensation to the survivors.


General Sikorski was many things, some positive some not. Pleasant wasn't among them.

Sad (though entirely predictable) to see Bieggers over in Canada pretending it's "Soviet propaganda" on the basis that a contemporary Russian newspaper also reported it. I wonder if he thinks the Conservative MPs who raised it in the House of Commons were "Soviet propaganda" too, or whether General Sikorski himself was spouting "Soviet propaganda" when he admitted that they were concentration camps.

The book, by the way is worth reading.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


As well you know, that was due solely to the low turnout. Only 18% of the electorate voted for them.

Hence, in part, the Polish pro-democracy rallies. That and the appalling mismanagement of the country and the attacks on democracy that started as soon as Kaczynski's puppets got (temporarily) the keys to their offices.

Thinking about keys, even if they hadn't got them, they'd just have another set of keys cut so they could break in during the night like Macierewicz (possibly the worst candidate in the country for Defence Minister) did to the new NATO offices.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


This much is true, however I'd add that it's more what historians research, what the media shout about and what people choose to believe or not.


A long way from random - it's a major work, mostly not about Poland. And just out so very few people have read it at all - though the publishers as usual have placed it with reviewers and the media are beginning to pick up on the issue. Most of the discussion about the book (in English, anyway) will not relate to Poland. In Polish and among Polish communities it will doubtless be a different story.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


How would you know what "most ordinary Poles" think, since you spend so much time on here from dawn to, well, dawn, deteriorating as the day goes on that you can hardly claim to go knocking on doors and asking them? All we actually know about "most ordinary Poles" is that they didn't vote for PiS. Fewer than 1 in 5 of the electorate did.


Typical of the rage we're seeing in extreme right wing circles that the Kaczynski/Macierewicz/Ziobro phalange have been totally wrong-footed by the intensity and scale of the popular feeling against them.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

Not a very articulate reply, and since I don't do buses not a practical one.

As I say, the camps' existence, function and level of brutality are not in dispute. Nor is Sikorski's description of them as concentration camps.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Is that a normal method for historical enquiry? A "straw poll" of "workmates, boss and drinking buddies"? Why not include the guy on the bus?

"Maybe there's an ancient city buried under the jungle, let's ask our workmates, boss and drinking buddies to do a straw poll, what about some evidence for the Nuremburg Trial, was Goering guilty! Let's do a straw poll of drinking buddies".

Fortunately the people researching wartime history have a rather more rigorous set of standards, eyewitness accounts, survivors, written documentation, the Hansard record of questions asked in parliament, Sikorski's own words recorded at the time....

Remember the account of this and the historical facts of the camps' existence and function is not disputed by the Polish government.

But hey, maybe your "drinking buddies" know more than the historians, than Hansard and than the government. Don't insult the victims.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


Unlike post #1,146 which does not. Fewer than 1 in 5 voted for them.

News / Is Jarosław Kaczyński the new Lech Wałęsa? [74]


And with (literally) Legions of soldiers behind him. I wonder what the current military think of the situation - they aren't generally PiS supporters.

Plus of course Piłsudski's brother was a good person with high ideals and political skill; Jarosław's was the opposite.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Why not start a thread about Cyprus, if you're so interested in things a thousand miles away. Rather than trying to pretend that Polish diplomatic territory wasn't Polish diplomatic territory.

A classic one "ooh, but he did it too, Mister".

At least you haven't tried to pretend that the Polish concentration camps set up by Sikorski (who admitted they were Polish concentration camps) somehow didn't exist. For which doubtless the few survivors would be grateful to you.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


There you go again Po3. Nothing to say and shocked at the Polish pro-democracy rallies, attended by people who want the minority (18% of voters) Kaczynski gang to either behave (their every decision so far has been an appalling one so nobody expects that to happen) or go as soon as possible.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


No. Since Poland (specifically its government-in-exile) was a sovereign state, any of their facilities were extra-territorial, meaning they were Polish territory, just as the embassy is today and was then.

Which is why the Polish concentration camps existed in Scotland. The British government didn't even have the right to enter them and any attempt to do so would have been a breach of the Vienna Convention.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


Agreed. I'd add though that the names on the list are Social Capitalists rather than Socialists. The last Socialist to lead the Labour Party (apart from Michael Foot and that tit we've got now) was George Lansbury (pre-Atlee, was a very old man at the start of the war, btw Angela Lansbury's father).

You're very right that no Polish leader (even Wałęsa) approaches them in charisma. One reason the centre-right Platforma lost - they were technicians rather than crowd pleasers. They did a great job, but just didn't bring the crowds out on polling day.

Though there's no shortage of people out on the streets for the pro-democracy rallies now; people who didn't generally bother to vote, hence letting the unpopular minority regime in.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

It's a horrible subject, isn't it. Always remember that the terms Concentration Camp and Death Camp are often confused. Birkenau (like Treblinka) was a Death Camp. It was set up for one reason only; to murder people in large numbers. All death camps were sited east of the German homeland, mostly in Poland due to transport infrastructure etc.

Other camps (Bergen-Belsen, Teresin, Westerbork etc) were Conventration Camps; though people died in those places, they were set up to 'concentrate' political and social opponents of the regime rather than specifically to kill them.

This thread started about Bereza Kartuska, specifically whether or not it can be called a concentration camp. The new revelations about the camps set up by the wartime Polish government-in-exile (which General Sikorski, who established them, called concentration camps) fit the definition.

One issue sure to crop up is the disproportionate number of Jews in the camps.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


I just see a knee-jerk radical (though committed and with personal decency that doesn't sit well with party politics) with some slightly alarming views. Supported by a hard core of entryists with extremely alarming views, a real screaming mob. An absolute gift for both the Tories and LibDems, not to mention the SNP.


If you're used to UK politics, it's all upside down. Platforma are the equivalent of the modern Tory party. PiS are part-BNP, part-Farage, and part Monster Raving Loony.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Not really, if you look at post #474 or had paid much attention to the two links. They were all very much Polish territory.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

Nope. The Polish government-in-exile was allowed to operate sites extraterritoriality, rather like an embassy. So the Polish concentration camps as well as military bases and other facilities were Polish territory. UK citizens and government had no right of entry.

I just knew one of the usual suspects would try that one!

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


This makes a lot of sense. The issue is mainly that most people here, not just people attending the Polish pro-democracy rallies, do not trust PiS as stewards of public funds or anything else. Everything they have done since taking office has only added to that distrust.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Which battlefield in Scotland do you mean? Culloden? Falkirk?


On the rare occasions I go "down the pub", we tend not to talk about concentration camps. It does however look like this issue which is gathering momentum (the lawyers are already sharpening their pencils) will be discussed a lot more.


He didn't just "open" concentration camps, he operated a pula rural regime in them for several years. He admitted that they were concentration camps, there are eyewitness survivors and there are contemporary accounts.

This one is going to be very hard to dodge.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Being from there, you certainly should see. And it's simple. If you commit a crime, you get arrested, make a statement, charges are laid if there's a chance of guilt and a jury decides.


They didn't. Sikorski opened concentration camps. I suspect that a lot will be said about them since the book came out, with actual hard proof. In our age of compensation culture, I suspect the court cases will be much discussed here.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


Don't be so silly.

Most Poles oppose PIS - and they oppose them so strongly that thousands of people turn out for the Polish pro-democracy rallies. Do try to keep up with current affairs.


So wrong again. 18% of voters voted them in due to a low turnout.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


So little do you know...

As usual, it's the working people, the elderly and disabled and those with small businesses who are suffering - as they did when PiS briefly got in before. It is those people who fear the consequences of Kaczynski's incompetence, venality and disregard for the law.

News / Poland's democracy defenders in Brussels turned out to be EU employees. [62]

That or highly educated Poles living and working in Belgium who are as upset as most other people about some of the appalling things the current regime are trying to get up to.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

One quote referred to that group. Did you read the articles?


He summed it up very badly. Unless you have evidence that any of the prisoners were "traitors".


Had they done so on British soil, they would have received the death penalty.

I'll post some more about the Polish Concentration Camps that were opened by Sikorski and his gang - the whole issue was ignored for many years however the new book has opened Pandora's Box. There's quite a bit online about them in Polish and it looks like the issue is beginning to be picked up by the media at the moment.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


In 1939?

Do stick to facts. And stop trying to distract from the issue by talking about the Cold War, something not generally thought to be caused by Polish citizens in the UK.

Plus of course the inconvenient fact that most of the prisoners were not in any sense communists.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]


Exactly. One reason the pro-democracy movement has emerged is that so many ordinary people fear the steps backward that the current regime want to take. And they fear even more the mess that their incompetence and venality may cause.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


That's probably one of the lamest posts to appear on this forum in the last decade.

And does not in any way mitigate Sikorski's crimes. It also ignores the fact that on British soil, there was (albeit limited) political freedom - we didn't shoot anyone for being a communist (or a fascist). Shame however that Sikorski didn't live to be tried in a court of law.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


See the last but one post.


This is not in any sense a reason to send someone to a concentration camp, nor were those wrongly imprisoned people necessarily "in power". Most of the thousands of inmates were in fact very much not "in power".


The law still very much applies, and Britain remained a parliamentary democracy throughout the war. Worth reminding that the Polish Government-in-Exile were largely politicians.

There are no excuses whatsoever for Sikorski's behaviour.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

No, it wasn't just internment and the first prisoners were politicians he disagreed with. Nor were these similar to the normal wartime internment camps. They had a particularly brutal and violent regime. People were sent to Sikorski's Polish Concentration Camps for all sorts of reasons including ethnicity and sexuality.

A very interesting book was published recently. There are even a tiny number of survivors of Sikorski's evil camps who are still alive.

In times of war, decisions do indeed have to be made quickly, however the law still applies, as does basic human decency which Sikorski lacked.

Some interesting links here:


secretscotland.org.uk/forum/m-1308564097/


thejc.com/comment-and-debate/essays/152262/life-inside-concentration-camps-scotland

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


In fact there were several in Scotland, set up by Sikorski for people he didn't like including several generals and a former Prime Minister. Plus a whole lot of other people. At least one person (that they admitted to; there were probably others) was shot while trying to escape. The first camps were on the Isle of Bute and at Tighnabruaich. The last camp was only closed when a British member of Parliament raised the issue.

Sikorski himself referred to them as Concentration Camps. It should be said that a disproportionate number of victims of the Polish Concentration Camps were from the same groups in society that the Germans were also imprisoning in occupied Poland.

News / Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy. [2554]

You're obsessed. Fortunately decent people are not, and the tens of thousands of people attending the Polish pro-democracy rallies certainly don't seem to have such 'issues'.