History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

Thats... questionable, Poland with time to grow has historically proven to be an equal at least so the loss of Silesia might have been historically... temporary :)

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

No official or convincing unofficial sources that i know of say otherwise.

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


Because you dont react to something like that unless its backed by an initiative, it was not.

What did you expect Poles to jump and go "hooorayyy" and give up half of their country because the german foreign minister gave them a finger? In these matters you go all the way or not at all, you dont drop foggy remarks, its pretty clear that while somewhere in the nazi leadership floated the idea of drawing Poland into the Axis it was never considered seriously or we'd hear more from the german side.


Poland was on every field the most powerfull central/eastern political entity bar Russia, with Russia gone it could have done whatever the f*ck it wanted and thrive.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


But they did, some of them quite decent armies too!


You just lost 30% of your populace, that happened twice to Poland and you dont see me claiming we got wiped out, you still had 7 out of 10 people.


Not really, it had loads of ups and downs, it got absolutely owned by Napoleon, it bankrupted itself more than once, it failed to establish solid colonies etc.

It did quite well but it does not deserve the title of one of the most succesfull states, Germany does, Prussia not so much.


Yeah there would, the balls were rolling already, Napo made them roll faster thats it.


Like Poland?:)


No polish flag on Reichstag, what else can you discuss?

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


I daresay IF there was such an alliance Poland would have stomped hard on Ukrainians, they were a nuisance more than a potential ally.


And then we could get them all with just one nuke!

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Oh come on, german states and statelets if you want.

We're talking about a cultural, ethnical and civilisational entity not a political one.


C'mon when? Of course you had your downtimes, all nations have them.

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


Wishfull thinking by extreme right, facts are Ribbentrop dropped a line to Beck that said Black Sea is also a sea that referred to shifting Poland eastwards, away from the Baltic and giving it Ukraine and Black Sea instead but nothing hard followed.


Again castles on ice built on that single remark by Ribbentrop, there's no hard evidence that such talks were even attempted or even considered.

Now if such talks were attempted and Germany allowed Poland some limited access to the Baltic, but Germans wanted the cake not a slice so its wishfull thinking.

News / Pole-basher Gross up to old tricks [284]


Yet again you begin your anti-polish rants, Gross is not a historian, check what he graduated at?

As for Gross his previous book was filled with lies, he inflated the number of victims over ten times for example, quite a few people who's testimonies were in the book were proven to be made up by the author...

He's a prejudiced Jew with an agenda and making money off his anti-polish bias.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Especially when they lost to France, England, Poland, Russia, Sweden...

The problem with these boards is morons like you making attempts at history and retarded statements are born as a result.


By whom?! Last i checked Germany attempted to invade pretty much every neighbour at some point in history!

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


Rubbish, there was no signal given to Poland nor any official consideration, there was a single remark to Beck in regards to possible partition of Ukraine but thats it.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Stop using wikipedia GW.

Russians had 21.000 tanks and 4000 armored cars.


Google "defence in depth" and see who's invention it was, then google "elastic defence" then "tank dessant".


BB i've studied all sources including german ones and personally i'll stick to polish ones, we've beaten the horse dead and unlike western and russian sources we never missed a spot, that includes polish mistakes in 1939.

The same school as romania or czech historiography, larger countries write history in a manner that suits them and does not hold a candle.

Brits for example masturbate over german tank tactics because they try and avoid admitting that both blitzkrieg and mechanized warfare are in fact their inventions that they in their stupidity neglected.

Germans picked up what the Brits discarded as trash and used it as the british meant to.


Thats really a given and if he did then no one would be able to defeat him.

History / Watch Poland grow and shrink (interactive map) [52]

38.5 thank you and its getting crowded!


Continental Europe.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


They stopped the german army and completely nuked its motorised and armored elements, they had six fast cores en route to the combat area, Germans had nothing, thats a strategic victory right there.


They had nothing to fight with BB, nothing at all, Panzerwaffe amounted to some 200 vehicles, thats tanks and self propelled guns, Russians still had well over a 700 armored vehicles in the area and more than 500 less than a day off.

Whether Wehrmacht stayed or not it was game over, the Soviet offensive in the following weeks showed just how huge the disparity was.


44-45? Better equipment, better tactics, better unit cooperation, better soldiers, they still suffered major losses due to their commanders simply not giving a sh*t about human life and due to political demands of Stalin but in all essentials of war RKKA was, in the last two years of the war superior to the Wechrmacht.

In 1943 its still an army in the process of transition though.


Thats true for every major city assault BB, the kill ratio in Warsaw in September 1939 was 6:1 in favour of the Poles, the kill ratio in Stalingrad was 3:1 in favor of the Russians etc.

Germans had time and resources to fortify themselves and determination to duke it out hardcore so there's nothing special in it from the military point of view.


Oh please, in Belarus, Ukraine, in Romania and Hungary Soviets had less than 30% more troops and by 1945 most of these efficient soldiers were dead, the reasons why Berlin went the way it went are listed above, plus Konev and Zhukov were in a hurry.


Nope, normally armies win when they beat the enemy to a bloody pulp and have enough juice left to keep the spoils of victory.


So you're saying that they knocked Germans back 100km after Kursk in the space of a few weeks by human waves not smart tactics?

Briansk encirclement was human waves? Stalingrad encirclement was human waves? Defeating Hungary was human waves?

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


I'm repeating myself to the point of puking on my own shoes, untill 1943 when Germany was effectively beaten at Kursk it was fighting on one front.

Africa should not be counted because it was just 5 divisions.


Newsflash, the only way Hitler could achieve victory was drawing Poland in and no german commander would dream of that and no thats not chauvinism or anything, Poland had over 1.5 milion additional soldiers, even with outdated equipment thats enough to, for example storm Leningrad.

Also the polish army was better prepared to deal with the weather, the same winter that f*cked the Germans up would only seriously inconvenience the Poles.

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


90% of teachers and students were polish


All of them are faculties of the same uni but for Nathan those are all universities :)))

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Suvorov is the guy who's on the other end of the crazy scale, he went so far as to claim Stalin deliberately lost so many battles as to be able to reform RKKA faster, the guy is amusing but not to be taken seriously.


Germany was going to attack France whether France declared war or not.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


The only thing in your link is that AGC stopped and then an enigmatic statement that it was messed with by Hitler.

The historical fact is that AGC had to stop because it went out of juice and had to wait for its logistics to catch up, Hitler had nothing to do with it.


F*ck Soviets and Russia mate, dont like either but i do like my history clean and true.


Problem is you can't discuss WW2 on a certain level if you dont touch books, i'll be more direct, online links are worth sh*t as far as WW2 discussion because unless we'll start uploading books (which i can do of course) the general info sites or wiki will never cut it, ever.


BB provided a link thats rampantly anti-communist and thats it, human wave was a tactic, often a viable if a wastefull one but by 1943 this tactic was no longer held or practiced by RKKA (with a few notable exceptions).

Personally i hate communism but this discussion is on a completely different level, we're evaluating two armies and the fact that one was Nazi and the other was Communist means absolutely nothing on any level here.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Russians had first large scale victories in the winter of 1941, lots of them.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Again rubbish, AGC stopped because its armored spearhead ran out of fuel and fuel was carried by trucks which in Russia had an average speed of 10MPH on dirt roads and dirt was the only kind of road there was.

How did Hitler screw up AGC in 1941 according to you?

Also the site you quote is sh*t, by day 17 Germans were well past Grodno bagging a grand total of half a milion men in two separate encirclements.


And then came the Winter Offensive under Moscow and the Siberian Divisions shat all over the most elite Wehrmacht had to offer, then came the Rasputitsa and then it was 1942 when beating Russians was no longer so easy.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


No they did not, prior to Kursk there was no fighting in Western Front and Rommels forces were the size of one undersized corps, if you're arguing that a single small corps would make a difference thats a joke.


Because Russia had a sh*tty chain of command, a faulty combat plan and assembled all its forces chaotically and very close to the front, of course they had initial success.


Do you have problems with reading comprehension? In 1941-43 Germany was fighting on ONE front, in Russia.

They also sent DAK into Africa but that was a pathetic five divisions, thats not even 70.000 men.


You just answered yourself, high losses of the RKKA were due to political reasons or HQ indifference, not military incompetence, we're talking about 1943~ of course, prior to that it was incompetence all the way.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

1941-1943 is exactly that, Wehrmacht vs Red Army, no sideshows, in 1943 Wehrmacht was beaten.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


See? Thats exactly the result of Nazi propagana about the character of the Russian when the explanation is simple.

When Germans faced conscripts said conscripts would more often then not dump a brick and panick, when Germans faced professional soldiers or WW1/Revolution veterans they were in for hardcore mode.

As the war progressed and surviving soldiers passed on their skills more and more Red Army troopers became the nightmare with the gun that Germans were so frightened of rather than a scared civilian with a rifle they faced initially.

Google Pavlovs house.


I just told you, Germans attacked Russia with 100% of their available forces, helped by Romanians, Italians, Finns, Hungarians and Slovaks and they still failed.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Except the Red Army and the US Army.


But they did! In 1941 all of their active forces were in Russia and they did not win the whole thing, in fact they got whopped in the winter.

In 1942 they still had all of their active forces in Russia and were winning, kinda but it was already pretty hard.

In 1943 they lost the Battle of Kursk and it was game over and only afterKursk they started shifting forces to Italy and France so whats your point?


Rubbish.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


A quote i remember by a Russian.

"We had to choose between two dictators, we chose the one who spoke russian."

if Hitler played his card right the entire Red Army would just fight for him and a russian soldier under german command would be un-f*cking-stoppable.


There's quite a change of tone when you read memoirs of german soldiers and their today statements.

Remember that something like 80% of initial Wehrmacht were unemployed young men (Germany had a sh*tload of them) quite a few of whom learned to read in the army and so on.

Goebbels had it easy, simple people given a purpose and a good life, putting stuff in their head that they'd be ashamed of later was easy.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Depends, if i hear that Poland was destroyed in two weeks or that Barbarossa was so effortlessly rolling down Russia that raises an eyebrow.


Again point of view, german troopers went in with the perception that they're fighting subhumans, after a few weeks they were sh*tting their pants because quite frankly Russians were superior in every respect but command.

They didnt cry out in pain, they didnt succumb to weather, they could fight hungry, tired, burned or wounded when any of us would just crumble and you wont hear it today but every goddamn Wehrmacht soldier had the Russians for subhumans, Nazi or not.

And then Russians went and kicked Germans all the way back to Berlin.

Hard to be objective when subhumans went and shat all over your warmachine like that.

My sources are in Polish mainly, i can of course find english translations or stuff by (mostly swedish) authors but the truth about WW2 is warped by political realities.

Germany had its 5 minutes while retards were running Russia, but when retards died out intelligent people were let out of the Gulags and started rolling again, these generals are not famous but Russia had dozens of them and it showed.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


You assume wrong, i'm 28 years old so i've been raised in free Poland i'm just into WW2 history to a point of obsession and a random online moron is not a partner for me to discuss with, for example i can tell you that in 1.01.1941 Russia had the following armoured forces:

T-26 - 8790
OT-26 - 938
BT:
2 - 546
5 - 1742
7 - 4655
7M - 582
7A - 108
T-28 - 447
T-34 - 115
KV -243
T-35 - 56
T-37/38/40 - 3525

After over 14 years in the subject i can quote you from memory forces that took part in every major engagement east and west of Berlin so an anti-communist article throwing blanket statements doesnt even phase me.


1. Speak fluent polish.
2. Have at least 1 polish relative.
3. Not be a part of any german organisation during or before the war.

There was more but it boils down to the 1 milion Germans being mostly ethnic Poles from Silesia who then used the cop out offered by Germany because Poland was quite frankly a horrible place to be at the time.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

There were certain requirements that a German had to meet, do you know them?

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


To be specific his pop is Józef Kloze who's half german and his mother is Barbara Jeż who's polish so i stand corrected he's 1/4th german but that pretty much sums up all the "Germans" who went into Germany during merry communist times.


He's gonna break those legs while skeeing when he's on a trip to f*cking Africa!


What? The napoleonic one?


Links is not tantamount to evidence son, i can link you to stormfront and use it as my proof of neonazi tolerance.

What i have pointed out are reasons for which most historical sources that do not directly discuss tactics and operations are biased, how about we pick an operation, lets say Russian invasion of Hungary and discuss over this, i'll even bring english links to play with.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


Original flag was a small thing carried to the top during the assault, then they ordered a nicer bigger version for the famous pic, as far as i know yes there were Poles assaulting Reichstag but no they did not stick a flag over it.


About 40-50k but if you mean mr Klose he's as German as i am.


BB those were ethnic Poles (mostly) fleeing Poland using various relatives, most of them never spoke a word in german either! Poland was poor, Germany had a Marshalls Plan rolling you figure it out.

History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]


You need to go to google and find yourself a map of historical Silesia then come back to me and we can have a discussion.


You're kidding right? The silesian autonomy whatstheirname doesnt even have 40k members in a region with more than six milion inhabitants.


Post 1947? Yep.


Sorry mate they're all ethnic Poles, its like saying Bavarians aint ethnic Germans.