Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Of course it will! The same way that calling someone "fatty" would do. If you consider that czarnuch also means "a man who work hard for peanuts" - basically a slave workforce, then its obvious its not a nice thing to say. But how the word used to describe people of any race can be racist? Even I can be czarnuch. :)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


That is what I call : "dogmatic thinking". Racism is quite complex phenomena. You was told that truth is this-and-that and newer questioned that statement. I don't believe that any statement can be true per se - without examining it. What makes us all humans is questioning everything, looking for a reason. For instance - in XVII and XIX century it was obvious for most of the European population that black people are not humans or at least not humans in the way that we are. In those times I would be told: "How I can explain to you so basic concept. We breath oxygen, and they are *not* humans. This is obvious."

And yes - I can think of culture free of racism. Or at least presume that such culture *can* exist.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Get real - she is famous because she is mixed race. Got it? And you probably newer meet or talk to her. Your lucky day has yet to come, I am afraid.


Yep you understood - that's racist. :)
As we agreed before - we talking about racism, not name-calling. Stay on topic.


This is dogma. Nothing more. Its like religious credo.
What you said that - "Racism is everywhere, in every country and culture. This is obvious - we don't have to prove it. There's a thousand examples."

Would you mind if some bloody foreigner, who attended other school than you, and who has got some troubles with understanding "obviousness" of this idea would ask you for some explanation? (Don't looking for fight. Just asking a polite question)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


You talking about Polish Commonwealth of XVI-XVII century. Fascinating subject. But not in line with this thread, I'm afraid. I want only remaind, that Lithuania was bigger than Poland. Hardly a "minority". :-)

In every country, every community you can find some fanatics of any kind. I am sure - Poland is not different and among its 38 millions's population you can find some real racists. I never deny that.

But racism was never part of our culture or social life. In western world things like slavery, segregation, colonialism were part of official policy with approval from the large part of the population. Not in Poland.

And you - you are very dogmatic person. Your mantra "Racism is everywhere" would not become true thanks to repetitions. This is still a theory. Still needs some proof or arguments.

Is that a part of western mentality? Like this person, who told me that "Czrnuch *is* racist word". And all argument I get is that bold *is*. You all pretend to be open minded, but on some topics you are obviously not. That is interesting.

(No insult meant)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Of course - they can be racist. And some of them are. (like Nation of Islam guys)
The Poles can be racist as well. We just need some time. In unified, monolithic country without any real or visible minorities the whole idea of racism is quite hard to grasp. Who knows - maybe in 20 years Poland would catch-up with the rest of the western world and become as racist country as any other?

On the other hand - Poland always walk her own ways. Unlike most of European countries We never have had colonies. Or real religious war. Or absolute monarchy. So - maybe racism will never be very fashionable in Poland? It is not very popular at this moment. :)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]

Mind that this person may be oversensitive on this point. He/She may decide to be offended. My suggestion - pretend to be blind. This is always safest solution.

Edit - The same day you meet a "black Polish person" - you must play lotto. Chances of positive hit are more-less the same. :)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


According to this definition - calling somebody "Czarnuch" can not be seen as racist act as there is no prejudice attached to this word.

Specifically - one can't expect that the said czarnuch would behave in certain way (if he would tend ie to steal, rape, being unemployed, or having poor personal higene etc) as definition and common understanding of word "czarnuch" does not include such broad interpretation.

Thank you.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Because of cultural differences maybe? For instance starring at somebody, making eye contact is not consider of being impolite in Poland. For a coloured person with hyper-sensitivity on this spot, who grow up - lets say- in the UK it may be seen as racist.

Or asking personal questions. Is a mark of friendship and kindness. And since majority of Poles presume that all black people comes from Africa, the question "So - how's Africa? Hot?" would be unavoidable in certain situations.

Or shops. As you probably aware - in most shops you would be ignored until you ask for service.

Really - there is a lot of situation when some natural Polish way of behaving may be received as racist by the Western standards.


Your definition of racism is (as I presume) when somebody express contempt or dislikes someone of other race. Too broad IMHO
This reminds me when one of my friends accused other one of being anti-semite. An the answer was: "I don't like not because you are a Jew, but because you are a B***rd".

Convex - stealing is OK. Cars have no souls ;-)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


In our tradition (Polish, Catholic - I am not sure how to call it) there is no room for real racism. Even enemy has a immortal soul which makes him human. Therefore no one can be half- or subhuman in Poland. Without this - real racism is simply impossible.

Maybe we will learn it in time. Along with "ideas, stereotypes, rumors, culture etc" about other races and cultures. Who knows?

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


I am quite happy, that you said that. This is exactly my point for whole discussion.
I don't pretend that Poles are angel-like open minded persons in general. We simply haven't got historical opportunity to develop any "ideas, stereotypes, rumors, culture etc" about other races or cultures because we haven't got any contact with them. In 20 years it may change. Even racism takes time to develop.

For instance we had some contact with Jews. And some people think that we are antisemits. Maybe they're right. Or with Gypsies. But - thats all! No colonies, no slave trade etc.

Therefore a real racism is rather new idea in Poland.


I am aware of this. But I don't believe that colour of the skin has anything to do with racism. In India there are "lower castes". In Japan - Buraku communities. They looks exactly like the rest of the population. Racism towards them is still very strong. The racism is when somebody consider other people or group of people of being half-human and deny them rights an respect. Exept some loony-psychos, this situation is non-existent in Poland. Even more - It never existed in the past.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Come on - how can you be aggressive in reaction to colour? Any colour? That is mad.
Of course - I can hate a person. Maybe dislike a dog. But colour? Nah - I haven't got any personal feelings towards colours.

For instance - if I get tanned - should I dislike myself? Crazy idea.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]

Being rude, offensive and aggressive is not the same as being racist. Being nice and kind doesn't equal of being tolerant and open-minded. I am sorry, I have to repeat this. Few post ago I described precisely my understanding of phenomena of "racism".

Matowy - until you decide to stay on topic an refrain of expressing your opinions about myself - I consider discussion with you as closed.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Mentioned above The Great Polish Code of Conduct specifically stated that decision if somebody feels offended is entirely at offended person's discretion. In order to be offended by the word "czarnuch" you don't even need to be black. Or by any other word.

Attachment to The Conduct called : "How to behave in backstreet on the Saturday night" instructs that if someone decide to feel offended without any verbal provocation he shall choose the offender, look straight in his eyes and start conversation:

- Co się, k**wa gapisz? (What the hell are you looking at?)
The designated offender shall not try to calm down the situation. Instead he shall answer:
- A co k**wa? (Hard to translate. Maybe: At your service, sir)
Then the both sides are free to express their opinions in more physical way.

I remember once that far from behind me I've heard "Eeeee... pedały" (Hey gays! - plural form used to describe homosexuals). I am not a gay. I was alone. Nonetheless I've decided to investigate if I have a reason to be offended. After rather long walk I did find this merry gang and asked:

- A co k**wa?
These young gentlemen explained to me that until now, they weren't aware of my existence and certainly this initial remark about homosexuals wasn't used to offend me. But - since I already was here (a little offended - as I decided) ... We decided to express our opinions in more physical way.

This is very interesting subject, but I am afraid has little in common with our discussion about racism.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]

You have got every right to your own opinion.
What you screaming is your own business. Its just words.
Of course - any passing by Polish guy have got every right to his own opinion about your opinion. He may even express his opinion by kicking your ass.

Nothing racists about that.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Oh come on. Personal attacks are never a good way to reach any conclusion.


I see you are beginning to understand. Skin colour is one of many attributes that any person can have. One can be tall or short, red-haired, blue-eyed, black or white, nice looking or not very handsome. You can describe any person in hundreds of ways. Skin colour is just one of attributes (at least in Poland) - not better and certainly not worse way to describe someone.


Well - if you can see the colour but for some reasons you pretend you don't and you refrain to decribe some person by it (especially - if it's the only black guy on the field) then it's imply that you see something shameful or insulting in this particular person's skin shade. And that is racists.


Is one of many way to say "This is a black guy and nothing wrong with that".


French are nation of lovers.
Germans like everything clean and in order.
Czech are laid back - they love beer.
Italians are noisy and hot-tempered.
Poles are great at improvisation.
Gypsies are travelers and musicians.
Nigerians are good at marathons.

Which of this statement is racists and why?

You see - Matowy. You can't deny that people are different. Chineese are not the same as Africans or Europeans. Western culture in order to fight "racism" pretend that all people are the same, robbing them of identity and individlity. Basically - the Political Correct answer to racism is: "Lets pretend that we all are white".

In Poland we see it other way. People are different and shall be proud of it. That is why we are freely call black guy a black. We expect him to being proud of it. Exactly the same way that I am a proud white Pole.

Travel / Poland from a Persian Tourist's Perspective [269]

And first conception of God-Creator, first idea of divinity and monotheistic religion was (ta daaaa) Zoroastrianism.
- Also conceptions such as hell, heaven, satan, fight between light and darkness, virgin conception of prophet etc are originating from this source.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


I never stated that this word is not used to describe a black person. It is. Also: czarny, murzyn, mahoniowy, opalony etc. There is nothing wrong to describe somebody's skin colour. To pretend that you can't see the color - that is wrong.

This word Czarnuch has no cultural contexts in Polish language.

BTW: You can also describe a white (or any other colored person) with this word. Other meaning is: somebody who work very hard for a very little gratitude.

Travel / Poland from a Persian Tourist's Perspective [269]

Seanus
Its about the Sun symbol which was (if I remember it correctly) a sign of Ahura Mazda.
This symbol was adopted by Greeks, then by Romans, then by Catolic Church. And finally - we have got Polish monstrancja with the Ahura Mazda symbol for no particular reason. I think it's fascinating.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


I hate telemarketers. All of them. I have in contempt all supporters of Polonia-Bydgoszcz speedway club. If I think hard enough - there are a lot of groups of people that I like... let's say: less then the others. Nothing wrong with that. I don't deny them right to live. I don't see them as animals or something. I just like them less than the others. This is my right.

And - Czarnuch is racist term only if somebody really hard want it to be racist. There is no cultural context in this word. Its empty.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


That simply because as a Polish I see no shame in the fact that somebody is black. For that reason I can't see nothing wrong in describing somebody as such. And I've never said this is nice. The same way - describing some overweight person as "fatty" wouldn't be nice. But we are not talking about what is nice and what is not. We are talking about racism.

In my eyes (and I think I can speak in the name of majority of Poles) - racism is not about being nice or not. It's not about name-calling, liking or disliking. Racism started when someone dehumanize some group of people and deny them a status and right of human. This is non-existent in Polish culture.

And Matowy - I also think there is nothing wrong if someone dislike certain people or group of people. You don't have to love all the Humanity simply to prove that you are not racists.

Travel / Poland from a Persian Tourist's Perspective [269]

Darius - you told that Zoroastrian religion is still alive in Persia. I wonder if you seen any (even most remote) sign of Zoroastrian tradition in Poland. What do you think for instance of this:

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Ok - let's talk about Czarnuchu.
What's so derogatory in this word? Is there any cultural (presumably negative) context? Can this word be used as an insult? Nah, nah, and nah again.

You see this word as racist simply because you automatically translate it into English. And translation is an N-word. But N-word is quite different story. N-word has a certain cultural context and meaning wchich is lack in Czarnuchy.

Btw - single out and ridicule is not racism according to The Great Polish Code of Conduct. :-)
Its good fun.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Once more - they are racists in your eyes, and by your standards. They don't seems to have any problems with "racists" remarks simply because they are not racists in their own eyes.

Just for one second try to understand that your point of view is not the only one that exist.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Come on - there was a huuuge Jewish population in Poland. Some stories been told, some lessons learned. Anti-semitism is quite different thing than racism (at least in Poland)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Being an "Polak" is matter of culture and tradition, not blood or race. Everyone can ba "Polak". I am Polish-Ukrainian-German mixture. I am 100% Polish.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


According to Western standards. You judge them by standards of other culture. This is racists.

Seriously though - I don't pretend that we are innocent island of tolerance in the racist world. I simply state that even developing racism takes time. We never got that time.

Maybe in 20 years we become a racist nation - who knows?

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Swastika is an old symbol that is well-known in China. :)

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


So - try to imagine a guy from Alabama who never in his life has seen any black person. The same with his father and father of his father and so on. Of course - our Guy knows that there are other races in the world, but he has no personal knowledge on this subiect. Nor stereotypes, nor prejudiction.

Now - how racist he could be if he suddenly decide to be an racist?

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Racism is about stereotypes and hatred. We have no reason to hate any race simply because until recently we have no contact with ppl of other races. As for stereotypes - you have to got a time and some experience to develop some. We have got none of them.

Let's say - some thug is rather unhappy with kebab is calling a cook "You brown B###ard"
In London - this is racism. Simply because of a long standing tensions between minorities.
In Warsaw - This is simple statement: "This brown-skinned guy is ba###rd". Brown or black are just a colours in Polish language - with no other contexts.

In Poland you can describe people by the color of their skin the same way you can do it by the colour of hair. Calling somebody a red-head is certainly not racist, is it?

Polish individualism means that we are mostly proud of being different than the others. We assume that all the people feel the same. For instance - as a Pole I would not describe somebody as a guy "wearing a blue shirt an dark trousers" in situation where this guy is the only black person in the city. The fact that he is black is what distinguish him from the others - not his shirt. (Of course - I know that in London that would be seen as an racist remark)

Of course - for most of Westerners visiting Poland this simple information is hard to grasp. They heard that Poles in conversation are describe somebody as black/brown/yellow/whatever. By their western standard this is racism. By Polish standards it is not. Some cultural-awareness shall be employed at this point, don't you think? We have any right to be judged accordingly to our culture, not yours.

I don't deny that there are some REAL racists in Poland. But most of this so-called famous Polish racism is just a misunderstanding on the border of cultures and languages.

Life / Mixed race girl in Poland, good idea? [149]


Homogenus and white - ok. Racist - don't think so. Without minorities in Poland we haven't got a chance to learn how to become racists. Starring at somebody is not a racist act - well unless someone (a very hyper-sensitive) decide that it is.

I've seen some ppl in Poland who expect a racist attack on themselves in every word, every gesture made by Poles.
I am sure - I would be starred at when visiting Greenland or Swaziland Republic.