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Posts by Sokrates  

Joined: 19 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 1 Oct 2011
Threads: Total: 8 / In This Archive: 1
Posts: Total: 3335 / In This Archive: 1313
From: Poland
Speaks Polish?: Yes
Interests: Many and varied.

Displayed posts: 1314 / page 12 of 44
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Sokrates   
8 Jan 2011
History / Silesia occupation [49]

Good. In the end Europe will be the Europe of regions.

No it wont.

Regions have the right to have their own autonomy.

No they dont.

Slesians...of course they should feel first part of their own nation culturally and socially

There's no such nation as Silesians.

A Kaszub is first of all a Kaszub and then a Pole. I do not see anything wrong with that.

Everything is wrong with that and Kaszubi and Ślązacy prefer to be Poles first too.

After all, the socio-economic needs of Schlesien are far different of Białystok

Why are you using a german name? Economic partition time?
Sokrates   
8 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

The Polish flag over the Brandenburg Gate has been confirmed

That is correct, polish flag was hanged next to the USSR flag on the Brandenburg Gate, there's even pictures but i can't locate one now however i did manage to trace the picture that is the source of the controversy...

This picture circulated the press in the 50s as "polish soldier waving the flag over Berlin" though some claim this is a scene from the polish city of Lublin but the photo is of such quality (thats not deliberate by the way) that its impossible to say.


  • Polish flag over Berlin or Lublin?
Sokrates   
6 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

There also was never confirmation of any Polish flag going onto the Reichstag or any other important structure in Berlin.

Thats where your wrong.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

Oh, so you're saying that "Czechoslovaks", in fact, wanted to defend their country?

Military wanted, politicians not so much.

Without a doubt. I can imagine a coalition of the Baltic States, Finland, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia easily

The only militarily viable coalition would be Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia, optionally Hungary, the problem is nobody in said coalition liked each other enough to do business with.

Yugoslavia was militarily worthless, it had numerically a huge military but the actuall usefull force was less than 100.000 soldiers.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

We've been talking about Czechs so much, lets do a little show and tell since i know how to attach images now:))))


  • Lvt 35 - 150 built for the Czech army.

  • Vz 33 tankette around 40 built for the Czech army.

  • Lvt 34 - 50 built for the Czech army.

  • T-SI tankette prototype
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Why is there NOTHING (besides Gdansk and Szczecin) in former Prussia? [80]

In Warsaw commies wanted to make a point, in Wrocław polish architects were free to rebuild to the pre-war standard, that wasnt always possible but where it was it got done, stand by for pictures.

Jesus Chrrist, I need to quote Wikipedia

No you need to flash boobs if you're hot, i'm just gonna contradict you for sport anyway.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Why is there NOTHING (besides Gdansk and Szczecin) in former Prussia? [80]

They're completely different, Wrocław is a typically german twist on various worldwide trends while Gdańsk is built mainly to Low Countries (especially Dutch) schools, both polish and german citizens commisioned mainly Dutch and sometimes Italian architects to work in Gdańsk.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Why is there NOTHING (besides Gdansk and Szczecin) in former Prussia? [80]

Not in Prussia - in Prussia they lived in a form of a siege.

IMHO.

Loads of German heritage all over, roads pretty good too (for Poland), the closer to Kaliningrad the worse it gets but its mainly because the Russians had this habit of nuking everything built by Germans, sometimes it was rebuildable, sometimes it was not.

In a second im going to dig up pics of Breslau immidietaly after conquest by the Red Army and Wrocław now.

The place was totally nuked.

Even under the rule of Prussians it was just farmland mainly. So not much has changed.

Rubbish.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

Czechs inherited more than 50% of the Austro-Hungarian empires industrial plants but they were still a nation of only 14 milion, the Slovaks lived in abject poverty for various reasons and there was not enough natural resources to let it roll.

They had a modernisation plan to fully motorise two infantry divisions and pair them with two armored divisions to create a mobile army, that would be 20.000 infantry, 5.000 cavalry (motorised not on horses) and 400 tanks in 2 armored divisions (100 more tanks + 160 tankettes/armored cars would go to infantry support role).

Poland by comparison only managed to fully motorise a single brigade and partly motorise another one by 1939, so the Czechs were industrially advanced but not to the point where they were a viable fighting force.

Having the advantage of hindsight the only way it could work was for Poland to talk it out with Czechs (which was not possible due to mutual enmity but lets ignore that for now) and try to draw in Romania into it all.

Czechs are just gonna sit and look pretty, they'll probably defend for 2-3 weeks which is enough for Poland and Romania to mount an offensive, in 1938 Germans dont have the 4700+ armored vehicles, they dont have 300+ tactical bombers, they have only about half the artillery and Poland/Romania could easily put together a milion strong offensive while holding another milion troops back.

That would be hard to stop and the Czechs might actually get enough breathing room to attack themselves, but then again Romania wasnt threatened by Germany so its unlikely they'd go for something like that.
Sokrates   
5 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

The main problem with Czechoslovakia was that nobody really wanted to defend it (including
"Czechoslovaks" themselves.)

Learn history then come back to me, for now dont forget to place "in my opinion" before all of your posts on the subject.

How did they feel about going up against the Russians?

Russians were making loose offers of very generous help to Czechoslovakia, for example at one point they offered 500 fighter planes etc.

Actually it was seen at that time as the best defensible country in the East...

No it was not, thats exactly the reverse history i was talking about, the Czechs themselves assumed they'd be able to roll for a week before collapsing.

and their army was in higher numbers motorized with uptodate machinery than the german army.

No BB, in 1938 Germans had 1280 tanks and 630 armored cars, thats 1910 armored vehicles as opposed to 480 Czech vehicles only 350 of which were tanks and only 150 of those were modern.

Germany had 67000 motorised vehicles while Czech army had 11.000.

Germany had 140 modern fighters and about 400 older types, Czechoslovakia had approximately 300 extremely outdated biplane fighters who could do even less than polish PZLs in 1939.

To give you some comparison, in 1938 Czechoslovakia had two fast divisions (weak armored divisions) one with 150 tanks, the other with 75 Germany had 3 armored and 4 fast divisions as well as four armored brigades.

There was no competition whatsoever and unlike Poland which if it had smart commanders could swamp german armor in huge infantry battles Czechs didnt have the kind of manpower or terrain to give away.

The only feasible way for this to work was for Poland to destory german forces in East Prussia which was doable with Czechoslovakia intact and then send 100.000+ troops to Czechoslovakia to reinforce the border and free up czech motorised and cavalry units for some sort of an offensive but Czechs would never allow polish armies within their borders.
Sokrates   
4 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

No, don't confuse mobilisation potential (the number of soldiers that can be called
to arms, meaning that there are weapons and structures to accomodate them) and
manpower (all able bodied men aged 16-49.)

Ok then Czech available manpower was 1.2 to 1.5 milion depending on sources, their army when mobilised again depending on sources was 720.000 to 950.000 men with between 25% to 30% being German and Slovak ie unusable in battle against Germany.

The level of motorisation and amount of armored vehicles was much higher then in 1938 Poland but artillery was not modern, airforce was absolutely useless and again we're back to manpower.

Czechoslovakia was unable to mount any sort of offensive and Poland alone in 1938 did not have the armor and airforce to launch an offensive, a defensive war against Germany would be by definition lost.

Poland did! Czechoslovakian government believed that against Germany they have an alliance with France, and Poland will be at war with Soviets sooner or later and they didn't wanted to got involved on polish side anyway !

Situation is a bit more complicated but it boils down to Czechoslovakia having an army without reserves and unable to fight outside of its borders so yeah it was weak and in an untenable strategic situation.

Now if Czechoslovakia survived intact into 1939 that might be a different story, they had a modernisation plan that was just wicked and they had cash and industry to pull it off.
Sokrates   
4 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

950, 000 !

Iffy, different publications provide different data but lets roll with 950.000, thats still only about 700.000 soldiers, even less when you consider the need to control the 3 milion Sudet German minority.

So we're still back to square one, Czech army was weak.
Sokrates   
4 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

Exactly. So, after mobilizing for war they would have had 1.5 million soldiers,

No, mobilisation potential stands for all able bodied men aged 18-45 in any given country, Poland had a mobilisation potential of 3.2 milion for example, the total number of active forces after mobilisation was 720.000 men.

Thats the common mistake by reporters who quote armies based on mobilisation potential, thats not how many soldiers you can have at one time but how many reserves you have.

it'd still have been a formidable force.

Not with half a milion men.

Especially that their tanks were up to the highest world standards at the time and were taken
Absolutely, equipment wise Czechs were solid but there's numbers again.
[quote=Torq]They also had strong defensive
lines, and were in a much better position to fight a defensive campaign against Wehrmacht than
Poland was in 1939.

No they were not, defensive lines or not they were even more encircled than Poland was in 1939 and they did not have the numbers to launch any attacks into Germany.

Poland for example launched a major offensive in 1939 which used more than 200.000 men, Czechs were unable to launch such major offensive due to physical lack of bodies to participate in them.

Poland would have a much greater chance and with Czechoslovakia but thats more due to the border covered for about a month or two and Germany having only 1800-2000 armored vehicles as opposed to 4700 but praising Czechoslovakian army as something else than a temporary border securing force is naive.

Of course, given that the 20's and 30's were a time of great nationalism - it's unrealistic to expect such a broad coalition. But why Poland (especially Poland!) didn't say "hang on...we're sandwiched between two great powers, one of which has already attacked us" is a mystery to me.

Because Czechoslovakia invaded Poland 20 years prior using polish involvements elsewhere.
Sokrates   
4 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

armada.vojenstvi.cz/predvalecna/cisla/2.htm

gandalf.com.pl/b/armia-czechoslowacka-w-latach-19321938-B

Mobilization potential - 1.5 million people.
Active force of ground troops in 1938 - 720.000

Czechoslovakia had an active force of 720.000 men, its weakness was derived from the fact that some 200.000 of these were Germans and Slovaks who could not be counted upon to fight in other words Czechs had only half a milion men, thats very few given their strategic position.

Motor vehicles is a grand total of mobilised vehicles (including civilian cars) the actuall number is 12.000 with 25.000 being the goal for 1939.

So yeah it was weak.

Also why did you steal Torqs nickname? Having fun?
Sokrates   
3 Jan 2011
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

"Rolled in"? More like walked in, in a relaxed manner, unharassed by the Czech army (which
was quite strong at that time, by the way.)

You know dude i wonder when you're gonna get back Torqs nickname, ******* troll:)

Czechs army was weak.

This is my personal opinion - that they massively overestimated just what the Polish Army was capable of.

Luckily thats just your personal opinion.
Sokrates   
3 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

No, the Germans were fighting in the Atlantic

U-boats hardly contributed to war in Russia?

North Africa

5 divisions.

over the skies of England

Nope, they shifted forces from BoB to Russia.

as well as continental Europe (the beginnings of the western allied bomber campaign).

You're kidding right? A few Blenheims?

So yeah now that we established that Germans had some submarines and a small expeditionary forces in Africa we can say they devoted all of their available resources to fighting Russia.

Active two front war begins with Sicily in 1943, prior to that Germany is fighting Russia and Russia only, everything else is a total sideshow.

Your source implies that Axis forces melted by more than half a milion which is...a joke? I understand there can be a huge disparity in claims but lets not quote extremes?

Russia at the time of the winter offensives has 1.5 milion soldiers to Axis 3.2 milion, in early 1942 five new armies are formed with a grand total of 1 milion men and reinforced to a grand total of 3 milion by the fall of 1942, thats according to Berlitz, Porwit, Szymański and Tormasov in their respective works.

All throught 1942 Russians are outnumbered, they bring 2 more milion men to the party in early 1943, a milion more in 44 and the six milion figure is the amount of active troops till 45, to Axis 4.2 milion active troops.

But in late 41 till late 42 Russians while still having more equipment are numericaly inferior.
Sokrates   
3 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

As much as did you in Ukraine...;)

Sorry mate Ukraine was never a country, we were.
We ddint invade Ukraine, Prussia invaded Poland.

Lithuani tho, it was a mistake no argument there.

I think most people had a good life in Prussia..

Unless you were a Pole fighting to win back your independence or an industrial worker.

Millions of Poles became Prussians over the time...

Very few really, t'was a major problem for Prussia, Poles would do business with, learn german, serve in the army but in the end they still refused to drop their heritage.
Sokrates   
3 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

So BB you mean Prussia did not practice institutionalised theft, did not allow aristocratic nepotism, did not starve its factory workers, did not opress polish culture, did not invade and steal polish heritage including stuff like the Crown Jewels?

There was no anti-polonism or anti-semitism in Prussia? No it was not progressive above other western countries and it had significantly more dark sides.
Sokrates   
3 Jan 2011
History / Polish flag over the Reichstag first? [399]

Anyhow, why are you harboring illusion that Prussia was something progressive at times ?

German chauvinism, they're raised that way, even the good ones.

Also BB yes doing stuff to Poles in Posen was horrible, Prussia invaded Poland and just because it was stealing instead of killing doesnt make it any better.