nott
10 Sep 2010
News / Poland hosts lowest proportion of foreigners in the EU [115]
Open society confronted with an expansionist totalitarian system, straight from the book. Sikhs are quite strict in their faith, yet they don't spill it on others, no problem with them. They have a few privileges, but they don't abuse them. Orthodox Jews - same thing. Both religions have their True and Only God, yet they don't care about those miserables who can't see the truth. None of them would demand 'religious hours' on the public swimming pool, with specific dress code. Muslims did, and got what they wanted.
I would. Not with the mosques as such, but with the influence. One of Muslim duties is Jihad, struggle, which boils down to promoting Islam by any workable ways. And they treat their religion seriously, not like Europeans.
Europe didn't bash them into Khomeini regime, nor into Saudi et al. Expansionism is the very core of Islam, and every Muslim will tell you that, if approached carefully. Allah is the only God, The Word is The Truth, and the Truth is to be followed by everybody.
Poland is a different story altogether.
They might, I can see some examples myself. One, actually, and this is an example of a person brought up in Finland, in a Muslim family isolated from a Muslim community, immersed in the West, so to speak. Perfect example of what you'd want to see. A devout Muslim with quite liberal approach to life and people. And I know other Muslims, apparently totally Westernised, and I spoke with them. Conclusions are not optimistic. These are people who might not like a too direct approach to spreading the God's Word, but they will not oppose it.
Muslims living in a Muslim community is another thing, and the more they follow the imams, peaceful or not, the worse it gets.
If this project is considered particularly successful, then the future is dark.
People left to themselves developed a troubled society. This was only rectified by an outside intervention, and in a country dedicated to maintain peace regardless of ideologies involved. Were the government dominated by Muslims, the outcome would be quite different. No suggesting pork to Muslim butcher.
This particular idea itself, from my London perspective, is hard to believe. There was a case of a Muslim who sued Tesco for trying to make him to handle beer cans with a forklift. One of my Westernised Muslims was offered a sandwich, then he saw it's meat, inquired about what meat it is, and politely refused on religious grounds. Fair enough, only he left shortly after, for a minute, to wash his hands. A quick cleansing. Until then I thought he was a Hindu, or maybe a Christian.
It is a small example indeed. I don't claim that Muslims are totally incapable of adapting - which is a condition sine qua non, as you say yourself. If Islam was any closer to the European Christianity as it is now, I'd see little problem. First thing is, Islam must change. It doesn't where it's strong, and the dynamics of it's spread doesn't give much opportunity to the common Muslim folk.
And I don't. And I don't blame Muslims for high birth rate, and I don't blame French for low birth rate. Things are developing, in a direction I do not like.
There is a place in Hell dedicated for infidels, Jews and Christians included, and in prominent place. That's what I learned from an Islamic 'primer'. So if the message starts with complete and brutal exclusion of non-Muslims, then what is the attitude in the inner circles?
If. Both. Google for 'Akkari file'.
Open society confronted with an expansionist totalitarian system, straight from the book. Sikhs are quite strict in their faith, yet they don't spill it on others, no problem with them. They have a few privileges, but they don't abuse them. Orthodox Jews - same thing. Both religions have their True and Only God, yet they don't care about those miserables who can't see the truth. None of them would demand 'religious hours' on the public swimming pool, with specific dress code. Muslims did, and got what they wanted.
nott: Future threat
That very well may be, as nobody can see in the future. There is a chance that they will start to influence govts of respective countries, but this doesn't necessary mean a bad influence. Say that they want more mosks as the number is low. I wouldn't have a particular problem with that.
That very well may be, as nobody can see in the future. There is a chance that they will start to influence govts of respective countries, but this doesn't necessary mean a bad influence. Say that they want more mosks as the number is low. I wouldn't have a particular problem with that.
I would. Not with the mosques as such, but with the influence. One of Muslim duties is Jihad, struggle, which boils down to promoting Islam by any workable ways. And they treat their religion seriously, not like Europeans.
I'm not a big fan of sharia law and all that jazz as I am not a fan of religion as such, but maybe it's just a way of profiling themselves. The more Europe is bashing on them, the more fanatic they will get. It's a natural response, you should know that as Poles under the Communist yoke turned massively to the Catholic Church.
Europe didn't bash them into Khomeini regime, nor into Saudi et al. Expansionism is the very core of Islam, and every Muslim will tell you that, if approached carefully. Allah is the only God, The Word is The Truth, and the Truth is to be followed by everybody.
Poland is a different story altogether.
What I think will happen, and neither I can look in the future, so it will all remain a guess, is that the numbers will level eventually and the Muslims will become so Westernized that they kinda automatically will adhere to the various standards of life we maintain.
They might, I can see some examples myself. One, actually, and this is an example of a person brought up in Finland, in a Muslim family isolated from a Muslim community, immersed in the West, so to speak. Perfect example of what you'd want to see. A devout Muslim with quite liberal approach to life and people. And I know other Muslims, apparently totally Westernised, and I spoke with them. Conclusions are not optimistic. These are people who might not like a too direct approach to spreading the God's Word, but they will not oppose it.
Muslims living in a Muslim community is another thing, and the more they follow the imams, peaceful or not, the worse it gets.
One particular project is especially successful: in a relatively small neighbourhood in Rotterdam live app. 5000 ppl, of which about 3/4 is immigrant and the rest locals. (...)
If this project is considered particularly successful, then the future is dark.
People left to themselves developed a troubled society. This was only rectified by an outside intervention, and in a country dedicated to maintain peace regardless of ideologies involved. Were the government dominated by Muslims, the outcome would be quite different. No suggesting pork to Muslim butcher.
This particular idea itself, from my London perspective, is hard to believe. There was a case of a Muslim who sued Tesco for trying to make him to handle beer cans with a forklift. One of my Westernised Muslims was offered a sandwich, then he saw it's meat, inquired about what meat it is, and politely refused on religious grounds. Fair enough, only he left shortly after, for a minute, to wash his hands. A quick cleansing. Until then I thought he was a Hindu, or maybe a Christian.
It may be a small example, but it gives hope for a better future without hatred.
It is a small example indeed. I don't claim that Muslims are totally incapable of adapting - which is a condition sine qua non, as you say yourself. If Islam was any closer to the European Christianity as it is now, I'd see little problem. First thing is, Islam must change. It doesn't where it's strong, and the dynamics of it's spread doesn't give much opportunity to the common Muslim folk.
Edit: about the low birth rates in Europe: that's an ongoing problem within all Western countries - you can't hardly blame the rise of Islam for that.
And I don't. And I don't blame Muslims for high birth rate, and I don't blame French for low birth rate. Things are developing, in a direction I do not like.
As far as I know, Christianity, Judaism and Islam all believe in the same god. Jesus Christ is recognized in the Koran as an important prophet. And there are other things that are similar.
There is a place in Hell dedicated for infidels, Jews and Christians included, and in prominent place. That's what I learned from an Islamic 'primer'. So if the message starts with complete and brutal exclusion of non-Muslims, then what is the attitude in the inner circles?
If both parties are willing, then a pace inter pares is very well pssbl.
If. Both. Google for 'Akkari file'.
