just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian

What point does he have in which he may be right? You said too little or too much, so explain yourself.

I hope you don't mean that genocide of Polish civilians was a good thing.

I'm not saying that at all. I just meant that it would be interesting to see sb actually agree to one or two things he said. I reserve judgement but it just struck me as a slugfest without any concessions.

agree. That is usually what Volyn threads are about on PF.

You know, I wouldn't lock horns with an Englishman unless he really rattled me which doesn't happen easily at all. I'd try and calmly discuss things in a mellow fashion.

Sean, didn't I say that Nat had been right to some extent?
Did Bandera fight for Ukraine? Yes, he did. That's where I am with him.
But he did that using criminal methods, alied with criminals. And what kind of Ukraine he eventually wanted to see? Authoritarian, with a cult of leader/führer, where ethnically "clean" Ukrainians could only live. On orders of Bandera and Schukhevich were killed many innocent people, mostly from "intelligencija" social stratum who were suspected of any ties with Russian/Poles.

Wouldn't be out of place to also mention that the whole organization of Ukrainian nationalists were found as a terroristic organization who considered Russians, Poles and Jews enemies. They were openly looking for support from the German side however they failed to rightfully interpret German needs. They treated Ukrainians as subhumans who could supposedly help them fight Soviets, whereas Bandera thought Germans would give them what had never been given by Russians or Poles - independence.


No more than what I said. :) Just interesting what version is taught in Ukraine/West. I'm not saying mine is trustworthy but that may help me discover the truth in case I'm mistaken. :)

Thanks, Seanus. The only thing I basically wanted to say is that everyone understood that diplomacy doesn't work. History in itself between the two nations proves that no matter what you do, you will be treated like dirt and you have no place unless you give up your language, religion, culture,...Stupid Ukrainians had a hope the next 20 years between 1920 and 1940 that Polish government will just leave them alone to profess their faith and speak their language, or even to go on Sunday to a church to pray in a native language. Nope, Poles won't let. You couldn't go to a library - burnt, churches - burnt, Ukrainian schools - closed, universities - for Poles only, national spirit - terrorist against Polish state and Bereza Kartuska concentration camp, official jobs - Poles only, walk on the streets - nope, Polish youth with guns will tell you where is your place, publishing houses - most of them closed, land - given away to 100,000 Polish osadniks, who were families of Polish veterans. And amid all of that Nazis came with the Soviets and ravaged houses, murdered families, destroyed land, ran over with tanks and either took as a forced labor to Germany or to Siberia or simply shot at the spot. After all that what would you do? Write a letter to Polish government to contest the wrong-doings of your newly-arrived neighbors or ask to resurrect the church from ashes? Some just kept suffering keeping their mouth shut. The others especially those who lost somebody in the war either to Poles, Nazis or Soviets - it didn't matter anymore - took pitchforks (because they even hadn't guns like Polish youths groups) and paid the hommage. Many are surprised here about brutality etc., I think you don't and I am not either. I am not asking Poles to apologize, what happened happened and we are not the ones who lived at these times. But I am not going to apologize either and listen to offenses against Ukrainian UPA and its heros just because Poles don't like it or feel unjust some of the actions undertaken. Let's learn on our mistakes now, so they are not done in the future.

I don't know what is though in the West, nor in Ukraine. I just know (studied the history of Orthodox religion in Ukraine) that it is part of the Ukrainian identity and whoever is trying to change it will be perceived as enemy.

The Ukrainian church had played a significant role in sustaining Ukrainian identity over the centuries.

You did indeed, Sasha. I was referring to the Polish posters. Me? I really don't know enough about the history to comment either way but I like to see when one can actually go against what is 'expected' of them. I wish BB would do it over the Kosovo issue. However, I did meet one German who disagreed with Geischner which is good. As for Bandera, I've only heard of him. Banderas is more famous ;)

I know Ukrainian, Seanus. My family is from Eastern Galicia and fled out from there because their life was in danger. So honestly speaking it's difficult to be patient. But I try. I suppose I'm reasonably enough to divide emotions from facts. I know history of the Borderland quite a little, maybe starting from Polish point of view, but I'm able to switch and evaluate it from Ukrainian side.

I can feel Ukrainian point of view about discrimination of Ukrainians in prewar Poland. Statistics (Polish) support many of their claims.

All my calm weakens when I heard that Klaczkiwśkij is a real hero for Ukrainian youth, while he was responsible for the UPA actions in Volhnynia.

All my calm weakens even more, when I see a writing sprayed on 12.05.2009 on the memorial plate to memorize Polish professors of Lwów Technical University killed by Germans. The writing is "Smert' Laham" ie. "Death to Poles". It was exactly the same war cry used by UPA formations during the ethnic cleansing in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia.

You can see on the lower part of the plate: Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński - the greatest Polish translator of French literature, and on the very bottom Kazimierz Bartel - 5 times Prime Minister of Polish Republic.

I'd prefer a discussion but it needs two parts.

That's fair enough, marqoz. My limited knowledge only goes as far as to say that all romantic notions of Slavic brotherhood went out of the window in WWII due to the brutality of the Ukrainian units. They were said to be worse than some Nazis, a bit like the Croatian Ustashe. There are some real Slavic nutjobs in all Slavic countries.

No, they weren't worse than Nazi. They were just inspired. All started with Nazis and Soviets. Demoralization they spread was total. And many of these awful acts were stimulated and some also supervised by these totalitarian regimes.

I guess it just depends what accounts you read and their tendency towards exaggeration.

many people from this period will always have bad memories and the only way to cope is to keep them alive, however, it is not serving either side in my opinion.

Once Polish are out of Ukraine, these wounds have a chance to be healed.

Bandera collaborated with notorious Ante Pavelic in early 30s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87

Aphro, no one wants to change anything in Ukrainian identity. My question was different... :) nevermind...

I know Pavelic. Most Slavs do. He is an evil piece of work. Anyone that radical is worthy of being shunned.

Why, according to you, UPA started murdering Poles in February/March 1943?


I know this wikipedia article. There is no need to quote it. You should just use appropriate/wiser words, otherwise one day we will learn from you that Bereza was a death camp for Ukrainian women and children, Poles forbade Ukrainians to speak in Ukrainian, and burnt Orthodox priests during 'pacification'. Mykhailo Hrushevsky, an early Ukrainian nationalists leader, is hardly objective source. Ukrainian life in the Interwar Poland was in shades of gray, not as black as some want to paint it.


The OUN terrorized Galicia too.


I wish you remember it.


That you should change your definition of 'enemy'.


There was no pacification in 'Volhynia'. You confuse 'pacification' with 're-vindication', which goal was to deprive the Orthodox of those churches that had been Greek Catholic before Orthodoxy was imposed by the tsarist Russian government.

About pacification:




UPA didn't murder Osadniks - almost all of them were deported to Syberia. They murdered Poles who lived in Volhynia for generations/hundreds of years, innocent civilians who didn't take part in 'wrong-doings' against Ukrainians. You simply apply collective responsibility.


Nathan, you offend Poles very often, even in this thread, so you shouldn't complain. Everyone has right to his/her opinion.


What are your mistakes?

Does it have a signature by a Ukrainian? It definately could have been some crazy Ukrainian, but also it could have been some cunning Pole who tries to stir the emotions or even Russian who is more than ready to put our nations against each other. Why wasn't it erased? Let's assume one Ukrainian did it. Why do you keep it? To show your children how bad we are just on the basis of this painting done not known by whom and keep the circle going forever till the "appropriate" times, God forbid, come up?


Who says you want - we talk about history where Poland and Russia wanted and now both cry. It is like the reversal of the roles: one who has to demand an appology has to cuddle `poor`victims of own brutality ;)


You either lose calm or have sand in an eye. Relax, because millions on this side may say the same. Don't make a theater here.


What criminals? Allies of Soviets or Allies of the Europe who were cutting land to the left and to the right. Yes, Bandera said: "Ukraine for Ukrainians". What would you have said: "Ukraine for Ukrainians who live here, for Poles which burnt all our churches, imprisoned our wives, closed our schools, forbid our language, took our jobs, and terrorize us on a daily basis, for Russians who..." should I continue? If he said that, who would ever listen to him, except Poles and Russians, who would eventually shot him down after being used like a rug. Poland never said ``Poland for Poles`` (at least to my knowledge), but it destroyed Ukrainian community to the level of total poverty and inexistence. Why do you pathetically apply notions of appropriate expression in speech we use nowadays to days of WW2 when flowers didn`t bloom and etiquette was not in fashion. Jews were serving in UPA, so don`t use other nations when you don`t have enough arguments to your own cause.


I know Bandera was an active kid for his age, but at the early 30s, he was 21-24 years of age. Ante Pavelic was 41-44 years old, who formed Croatian nationalist party two years before. Hm... I wish I knew your source about ``collaboration``

Ukrainian posters on PF are not apologetic, sorry or otherwise admitting wrong of ethic cleansing. They just list excuses, Poles this and that....well they are alive are they so what this BS is about?

I'm quite happy they do not give in becasue it only sthreghen my resovle to get our land back.
Once more Lwow and area is not Ukraine and never was, fact that there living people considering themselves to be Ukrainians is immaterial.

To make all Poles fled, of course. To have new 'clean' Ukraine, maybe a little devastated, but clean from 'alien' elements: Poles, Jews, Czechs, Armenian. It was inspired by Nazi ideology. It's indeed aggravating German guilt, but in no case mitigating responsibility of Ukrainian individuals steering nationalist organizations.

Germans wanted to exploit Polish-Ukrainian conflict to eliminate risk of effective resistance from local population by making all cooperation between Polish & Ukrainian underground organizations impossible.

If only Germans wanted to stop the massacre they could do something in this direction. But Ukrainians went to far in ethnic cleansing what jeopardized the balance. Germans tried some efforts to limit Ukrainian actions but it was too late - they started to lose the war and haven't enough soldiers.

And the ethnic cleansing in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia unfortunately succeeded.

There is possibility that UPA planned to murder all the Poles in Volhynia, and in case of Galicia - wanted Poles 'only' to flee.
I think it can be treated as 'preemptive strike' in form of ethnic cleansing of civilians - in the OUN-B leaders' minds, Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine could have been contested again like in 1918-1919, with civilians being part of the conflict.

Nazis showed Banderists how to 'ethnic cleanse' when they murdered Jews in Volhynia with the help of future UPA members. OUN-B's admiration for Nazi ideology obviously made the decision easier.


The lists of professors were prepared for Nazis by Ukrainian students. Western Ukrainians had numerous chances to exact their revenge before...


Read the article you quote so many times once again, you interpret it freely. And still haven't answered my questions (about kids in Bereza, and NKVD members dressed as UPA during Volhynian massacres)

Real or imagined wrongs by Poles could have played a role in mobilizing/agitating local population. As to Banderists, if they were able to kill thousands of their fellow Ukrainians fighting for interdependence of Ukraine, why should they have had any scruples when it comes to murdering Poles.

And now every nation the the 1st world it trying to figure out how to control immigration. I see parallels.
We got the evil (Muslims) we all seem to agree on.
Right or wrong, it does present history in a different light.

Far reaching parallel. I think there is some difference between free people movements or even colonization which lasts few hundred years and 50 years old accident at work.

However in 50 years the difference will weaken.

;) What else?! Nazis knew who was a Jew and who not and they needed specifically Ukrainian students to give them a list of Polish professors of L'viv university? Wow, I didn't know that Ukrainian student had access to secret files with the names of the teachers ;)


It was all imagination. They just woke up and said:"Let us imagine wrongdoings". I like it ;)



<br />THIS IS MY FREE INTERPRETATION



So these kids had to leave their home and go study in Czechoslovakia, while fat Polish asses stayed in Ukraine and enjoyed education. But when Ukrainian nationalists in Galicia wished the Poles to get the hell out of their lands, it is A "BIG DEAL", "NAZI COLLABORATORS".




Take anyone on this forum that is impartial to either side, let him/her read my post and say whether I interpret it freely. You behaved like BARBARIANS in Ukraine, WILD, INHUMANE BARBARIANS. If you think that after all that you did, people felt like kissing you and packing suitcases for your departure with some sandwiches on the road, you are deeply mistaken.

Fine. Let's see what an impartial reader thinks of Poles supressing Ukrainian culture in...Poland, because when we speek of Ukraine as a country, that would be after 1992. Then, after reading Nathan's post above, and then reading the "revenge" dealt to civilian Poles by the Ukrainians here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

...what is the reaction of an impartial reader?

Now, I'll take Seanus as an impartial reader, who witholds judgement, to ponder the issue. Nathan's stance is that mass-murder is a justifiable answer to supression of culture. Shall we say that today would be a good day to murder all English persons in Scotland and then go to bed with a clear conscience and use Nathan's argument that they got what they deserved?

BTW, was Bandera not a Polish citizen at the time he had led the slaughter of Polish civilians? What citizenship did all the UPA butchers hold in Volhynia? Were they not all Ukranians with a Polish citizenship?


This is like a murderer complaining that the child's skull broke his knife.

It looks like they needed.


You might want to answer how did Nazis know who was a Jew?


Some wrongdoings were true, some were not (moreover on personal level).


Where is your source for Ukrainian kids and women killed in Bereza Kartuska, Nat? Isn't it another example of YOUR FREE INTERPRETATION?


'Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7]' means 'Poles burnt all our churches'.
I don't argue with facts, only with your manipulation of them, and don't read only bolded fragments or the ones that you choose.

20 years of Polish rule, including 10 years of Józefski's rule in Volhynia shouldn't be limited to one-two years. Did you know that OUN's victims in the Interwar Poland were people who wanted peaceful coexistence between Poles and Ukrainians?


Mass-murdering of defenceless civilians is always a big deal. We can try to understand why it happened, but there is no justification to it - that is what people should learn from the past.

I could give you examples of ethnic minorities in Ukraine, that are repressed and their rights are not respected (according to them).


And how did 'you' behave? You lost your 'only-victim' status.
I said that Poles and Ukrainians were both victims and perpetrators, but that's not enough for you. You believe that Ukrainians are morally superior and all their crimes are excused.

What we are talking about is excusing mass-murder on genocide scale. That is what the Ukrainian nationalists comitted. No condemnation of this by non-Polish posters here. Interesting.


thenews.pl/international/artykul126920_yanukovich-to-strip-hero-status-from-ukraine-nationalist-leader.html

I take it, Nathan, you did not vote for this president.

agree, but it looks like both side have to deal with it in a different way. I wish I can turn the history but it is out of my hands and how the conflict will be resolved is up the to the present generation.

Maybe Yanukovich is doing the right thing by reversing the Hero status. It has upset a lot of people and he is being a wise politician.

Truly, it is not a conflict. We have good and friendly relations with Ukraine and the hatchet has been buried.

He said he was going to do this before the election, and he did get elected, so in Ukraine, UPA is only heroic to the minority. I hope they don't try to use UPA methods to get their point across, as they clearly will be angered.

that was my perception too.


true and most of UPA soldiers are dead anyways.

Wow, this is the first time I am hearing it from you. I hope we can hold to your words and I absolutely agree to them.


I am glad to hear that. But UPA will remain for Ukrainians always the army that fought for our independance. Along the way there might have been wrongdoings against Poles, but this was a war and your government as I quoted in so many posts just made everything possible to make it happen. Major forces that UPA fought were NKWD and Nazis, not Poles. So by trying to keep Ukraine shut about her army and its heros won't lead to any fruitful resolutions. It is equal to saying: "you didn't defend your land against Nazis and NKWD and you didn't have an army, because Poles in Wolyn were killed by UPA or Ukrainian peasants". Personally, I am open to talks and I wish both nations could come up and forgive each other for the wrongdoings and let everyone have his heros and holidays. But if you continue your manner of conducting business where everything has to follow your ideas and imagination, nothing positive will result. I hope relations and their reasons, which our nations had to go through in Cossack era and 1918-1945 period won't be repeated ever in the future.