The story about German- Polish reconciliation

Oh , is that so , my comprehension of English allows me to understand clearly the context of your waffles .

If my person bothers someone , you do not have to answer my posts .If you keep doing so I can only presume that you have some hidden agenda.

We all know that the war is over , but on the other hand it is difficult to accept so many biased opinions presented here by some posters . Contrary to some posters I try to quote facts not some unsupported opinions.

I really don't know how many innocent Germans were oppressed by Poles, and this Forum here is the wrong place to answer such a question. It should be left for historians and cultural anthropologists to analyze that.

When does innocence comes to end and personal guilt begins? Are you guilty when you voted for the Nazi party in March 1933 because you hoped your life would improve? Are you guilty when you looked away when injustice happened next to you because you were afraid to raise your voice in a brutal dictatorship? Hundred Thousands of Germans were locked away in jails for raising their voices, others left the county. Are you personally guilty when you got drafted in the Wehrmacht and then be forced to invade Poland and other countries because you did not have the guts to desert, because you feared the Nazis would go not only after you but also after your family? It is not easy to draw the line between innocence and personal guilt.

I am more than glad I wasn't born in the year 1922 or 1923 because it probably would have been inevitable for me to be involved in things that can only be described as brutal and uncivilized. Let's face it: most human beings are bendable, shapeable and influenceable. It very much is the environment and the zeitgeist that decides if your good elements or the bad ones come to the fore.

It was the Nazis that created an environment and situation all over Europe where inhumanity and collective madness was the standard. In 1945, after six years of total war and 55 million casualties, people all over the world were so brutalized and dulled, nobody really cared if a couple of million German civilians got injured or killed because in the big scope of the picture this was just a rather minor detail and even more than that a logic consequence of human behaviour in large groups: in times of chaos the loser has to pay the price.

Therefore I surely don't blame the Polish collective identity for crimes that happened to German civilians after the war. Of course I would blame any Polish individual if I knew he was a rapist or murderer of civilians, because not tolerating such crimes should be one of the basic laws of civilization.

Very good remark. Yes, selecting truly innocent from really guilty is a hard task indeed.


I agree.

I don't doubt you have a lot of pulling power but I think the Poles have got more.
A few examples:

some notable Polish generals of German origin who fought for Poland in WWII, including:

General Franciszek Kleeberg-arguably the best polish general in the conflict.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Kleeberg.jpg/220px-Kleeberg.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Kleeberg

Władysław Anders
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_Anders

And General Juliusz Rómmel
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliusz_R%C3%B3mmel
apparently a relation of the desert fox

Józef Unrug
fought for Germany in WW1 and later for Poland in WWII
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Unrug

I think that is partly because this:
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sgnZ7htD8A4
is far more interesting than this (:
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fAX1RD2BFJ4

We had this discussion before and you said it yourself: there even was a time when Kraków had a German speaking majority in the Medieval ages, and other Polish cities had, too. These Germans did not disappear into thin air but they all got Polonized over the centuries.

The same way as the German population has a large Slavic element - at least 20 per cent - the Poles are far away from being purely Slavic by origin, because they have a large Germanic element in their ethnic mix-up, not only from Germans, Dutchs and Scandinavians but also from Germanic tribes that lived there before the West Slavic tribes arrived in central Europe in the 5th or 6th century.

So let's face it: In nationalistic times we learned to see each other as strangers and enemies, but the truth is: in the end we are brothers and sisters, or at least first grade cousins. ;-)

Wow, that is sth new to me:

[i]Unrug was born in Brandenburg an der Havel into the Germanized family of Tadeusz Unrug, a major-general in the Prussian Army. After graduating from gymnasium in Dresden, Unrug completed Navy School in 1907 and began service in the German Navy. During World War I he commanded a U-boat, earning promotion to the command of a submarine flotilla.[/quote]
There is always balance in nature.


Amen!


But this
youtube.com/watch?v=vQhqikWnQCU

is far more interesting

than this:

youtu.be/RW4DlEuBxWc

As I said, there is balance. :):):):)

At least we were able to Germanize this guy:

youtube.com/watch?v=nXyDfbzyOcM

born as: Klaus Günter Karl Nakszynski in 1926 in Zoppot (Sopot), Free City of Danzig ;-)

There is reason for this! Your elite was/is flawed !

Many posters have been asking on PF - do you think that Poles can do no wrong ?
Well, an average Poles was/is not better of worse than his counterpart from any country. However there is difference between elite, Polish elite was more moral than any elite from any given country.


I would say it is more than 20 percent, what about all that tribes you encountered on the east side of the Elbe ?

Also Scots contributed greatly into gene-pool in Poland.

(: a good attempt

However there are a few more Polish generals of German origin in WWII:
Władysław Langner



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczyslaw_Norwid-Neugebauer

Bronisław Prugar-Ketling

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronis%C5%82aw_Prugar-Ketling

The following didn't fight in WWII but they fought for Poland in the Polish-Bolshevik war: General dyw. Gustaw Orlicz-Dreszer

Tadeusz Jordan-Rozwadowski:

General dyw. Jan Edward Romer

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Romer

And on the topic of German/Polish reconciliation I can't think of a better example than Róża Maria Gräfin von Thun und Hohenstein, a Polish member of the EU parliament. Her son Christoph Thun und Hohenstein speaks Polish and German and will spend part of his studies in Poland and Germany.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B3%C5%BCa_Thun

The German elite definitely was flawed four generations ago, but I really can't see why you think the current German political elite, Angela Merkel for instance, should be more flawed than the Kaczynski brothers for example.

One interesting historical paradox is that while the Germans gave up on the Prussian march otherwise know as the "goosestep"-for obvious historical reasons, the Poles continue to practice it:

Are you sure that all generals you present here are of German origin ?Did you check it?Deresz ? Ketling ?eh?


Not only four generation ago, there is a general flaw in your high culture I think.
Talking about Polish elite after 1945 is talking about pitiful remains of what it was, hopefully it will regenerate in time.
Kaczynski just have a bad press in Germany, does it means they were automatically bad, for Poland? Fine, Germany didn't like their political standing, so what ?

I simply do not understand why Germans aways bring Kaczynski's example as somebody sinister - that is nonsense!
As for Angela Merkel - come on do you want me started ? First of all she comes from prominent and influential family in DDR ! Probably compromised herself,commie elite you present as a German elite, queer !

That's a tough statement and you should bring examples for that. In my opinion (West) Germany's elites did a lot of things right after WWII.


I know too little about Polish home affairs so I better shut up and say nothing.
It appeared to me that Poland under the Kaczynski's was rather isolated in the European Union, while now it seems to be much better integrated now under Tusk. Its economy is booming and was hardly affected by the European financial crisis. I don't know if this is Tusk's achievement.

Poland is a fully independent country since 1990 so you can vote whoever you want and you really don't have to care about what your neighbours think. Of course it is better for your economy and state if you get along well with your neighbours.


Is she? Her family roots go back to the cities of Danzig/Gdansk and Elbing/Elblag. She was born in West German Hamburg and her father was a protestant priest, so they moved to East German Brandenburg in 1954 because the Protestant church sent her father there. Her family wasn't influental at all, because, like in all communist regimes, church members were constantly discriminated.

She wasn't actively opposing the East German communist regime, but she also did not endorse it more as she had to do in order to get along well. Some of you probably remember the Polish communist regime and I bet not all of you were resistance fighters, too.

I didn't vote for her, but again (!) I can't see why she should be a worse leader than other heads of states worldwide.

Not only German's culture, I should have added. I don't know what Germany's elites did after WWII.


Well there is get along and get along. What is the point of getting along when it is totally one sided.
Poland has got her interests as well.


Does somebody really believe it.


Yes, I was referring to her father and her upbringing in DDR. I heard different interpretation though. Church members were discriminated against as to the extent that they could afford domestic help, and she could study at the prominent university in DDR ???! Well if that is discrimination you can discriminate against me any-time you want!


whatever float your boat, I just find it strange that you mentioned Merkel, I wouldn't say that she worse leader or not, she is your leader.

Stop dreaming. Polish elites once willingly led to the annihilation of their independent country. Remember that painting?:

Do Germans have such paintings?

Origin of Ketling name
Bronisław Prugar, a 25-years-old commander of the 8th company, 89th Infantry Regiment, Austrian army, twice wounded, was taken prisoner in 1916 by the Russians. He escaped from the POW camp in December 1917 to join the 1st Polish Corps being organized and commanded by Dowbor-Muśnicki. From then on, he stopped using his surname Prugar to protect his immediate family from punishment by the Austrian authorities, as he would be considered a deserter and a traitor. Hence his nom de guerre "Ketling", probably borrowed from "a fictional character in Henryk Sienkiewicz's novel "Fire in the Steppe", the third volume of his award-winning The Trilogy."

Origin of Prugar surname
Bronisław Prugar was undoubtedly a Pole, but his ancestors were German peasants or craftsmen,


They were known in Polish as Głuchoniemcy (głuchy=deaf, niemy=dumb) - as opposed to just Niemcy (niemy=dumb), or in German as Taubdeutsche (Deaf Germans) or Walddeutsche (Forest Germans):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82uchoniemcy

His Polonized surname Prugar comes from German Brügger. He was born in Trześniów, next door to the present-day Haczów (originally Hanshof - "Hans Hoff", John's Farm), the village founded in 1378 by the Walddeutsche:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacz%C3%B3w
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacz%C3%B3w

The joke is on both of you. :-)

Respected farmers and craftsmen. They contributed a lot into the development of the areas they settled in.

I found another example for a Germanized Pole, a rather interesting one.

Erich Kempka, son of Polish immigrants to the Ruhr area. He was Adolf Hitler's chauffeur, member of the SS and the Lebensborn organisation, that esoterical association that tried to create the "aryan super human" by systematically interbreeding "racially precious" folks and steeling blonde and blue-eyed children from Poland and other occupied countries. Polish probably was his first language, learned from his parents, but he refused to speak it. Funilly his wifes maiden name was: Daranowski. He peacefully passed away in lovely Freiberg am Neckar in 1975:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Kempka

Aren't you exaggerating a bit with that ? Where does it say he was Polish ?

I think Jordan could be Dutch, Deresz possibly Swedish or German, and Prugar-Ketling possibly German as well, or at least 1/2 his surname indicates this. Though as you pointed out that isn't 100% definite, although the others almost certainly are.

I said Germanized Pole. Or more precisely a German with Polish parents. Big difference! He obviously lost the ethnic identity of his parents totally and was Germanized within one generation. Hard to understand someone is able to suppress the provenance and culture of his parents or grand parents in such a radical way.

Give me the source that he had Polish parents . Polish sounding name doesn`t mean immediately someone`s Polishness . We have in Poland people with German names who don`t identify themselves with German.nationality .

To my knowledge his father`s parents came from Poland in XiX century and settled in Ruhr region .So by blood he was half Polish . If you read about German hatred and indoctrination of kids in schools against Polish ( at least at those times ) it is no wonder he, as half Polish, became full Nazi .

In today`s Germany in mixed Pol- Germ marriages , after the divorce of parents, Polish language to communicate with own children is forbidden . You are saying -hard to understand . I am saying quite opposite .

Reconciliation today

Two WW2 pilots, Pole and German, once deadly enemies, reconciled and became friends



German military cemeteries in Poland

Poland under Kaczyński had quite a good understanding with most of her neighbours except Russia and Germany and with baltic states - had not the ex-communists ruled Hungary at that time we would have had friendly understanding and cooperation with Hungary too - now Poland is de facto quite isolated in Europe because our allies have seen Poland as as a German client and unreliable - being a client of wealth Western partners hardly translates for me as an achievement of partnership and integration - for some of the sycophant (ass-licking) policies and decisions of Tusk Poland will pay quite dearly and quick (next year) - most if not all of the economic growth you talk about is on credit - this administration managed to indebt Poland with more than 300 billion PLN (it was already more than 100 bilion of dollars in 2010) - Poland is on the verge of constitutional indebtedness limits (actually it already passed it two years ago but they have used some accounting tricks to circumvent it)

btw it has been quite recently revealed that Donald Tusk is an official Polish candidate for the President of European Commission - I think it was long his ambition and independent commentators in Poland long speculated about it - now many if not all sycophant policies of Tusk are much more clearer

Very funny. Under Kaczyński we had good relations with all except Russia and Germany. Do you mean Slovakia and The Czech Republic, naturally? :):):):):)

BTW, do you know what the Polish export to Russia and Germany amounts to? :):):):) And to Slovakia?


Hahahaha very funny indeed.

This is utter nonsense! I know this happened once to a non-married Polish father of a child with German citizenship, but this rather proves that fathers in Germany that have no rights except paying money for their children, if the child's mother wants it that way, than a systematic discrimination of Poles. The responsible official at the youth welface office, that ordered that the Polish father is not allowed to speak Polish with his child, is a complete idiot, but this is an individual case and not the basic rule. You are putting it out of proportion. In my post office in Frankfurt there is a Polish woman working and she has a big sign in front of her where you can read in big letters: "Mówię po polsku!" (I hope i wrote it correct).

Regarding Erich Kempka: I once saw it on German TV that he had Polish parents. Doesn't the Wikipedia article acknowledge that?

A mate of mine has a (completly random) theory about this. The Poles and Russians still "goose step" because its the best way not to slip and fall on snow and ice :) Never mind that it destroys your lower legs....just dont want people falling over on parade :)

Couple more Polish named generals for moania to get knickers twisted about
Bronislav Kaminski
Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski ( although, surprise surprise, on wiki's warsaw uprising page the "Zelewski" bit is missing......)

Was a Russian not a Pole. Bach-Zalewski had a Polish background though.


Funny but obviously not true, I am not sure if it helps though. To be fair to them it's only like half a "goose Step"-it's not the knee high lift like the Germans used to do it and the Russians continue doing it.

Kaminski ,as the spelling suggests, had a Polish Father and German mother,he just happened to be born in Belarus.
Von dem Bach Z' was a scion of a Noble Polish Family.


Have you ever tried Parade marching in badly fitting Sapogii? Trust me,it IS the only way to stay upright.
Also, watch Poles and Russians marching (non Goose Step style) and see the arms swing across the body rather than at the bodies side. Again, this provides far better balance on slippery ground :)

you are right actually, I read somewhere a description of his describing him as Russian but wiki says something else.