Slavic vs Germanic thinking.... and the philosophical differences

Yes, and also that people back then didn't define themselves as 'nationals'. Nationalisms arose much later. Copernicus was born in the then Kingdom of Poland, spoke German first, but then learnt Polish (and other languages). What matters is what he brought to science and all mankind. His 'nationality' is a useless debate.

Miłosz and Mickiewicz were Polish-Lithuanian, and Chopin was Polish-French. But what they did to the Polish culture (and actually more than that, mankind as I said) is what is really important.

In what sense? It is really difficult to gauge what people back then have been thinking. We can agree that they didn't perceive their identity as people in modern or today world do. Foremost they were Christians belonging to sphere of the Mother Church which has been divined into the estates of the realm then they belonged to community they have been born into.For hypothetical person his allegation would be in order to the Church, county or town if townee, his estate in the realm, X province and subject of X king.

For Kopernik it would be the Church foremost and then again church as he was clergyman and then Church and then province and King.
However I do not see as this affect his perception today? After all Poles do not claim anybody who has been born east of the river Elbe as Poles or part Poles just because majority of the populations on those lands has been Slavic conquered by the Holly Roman Teutonic Empire. That would be the same logic that directs all those "arguments". Throe so called arguments stem from very modern and very fresh German nationalism who seek to grab everything they possible could as being German by "blood". I don't understand as such racist argument can be even for a while considered as valid by the present day philosophers on PF who are fist to condemn Polish nationalism ( they have no idea about ) if the opportunity arise.

Talk about Koperink and German claims is nothing more like giving to racist chauvinists claims made by certain German historian in the past whose bias should be visible today even to the most lazy eye. In short that is unsustainable BS.

Kopernik belongs to the Polish culture and to the Polish history as Poland is a natural heir of the former Polish Kingdom. It is quite simple really. It has sold rock foundation unlike fantastic claims of Germans they see connection between themselves and Arminius. Well, how that differs from Crow's stories about big Sarmatian Empire and Slavic Rule?

You all guys have been subjected to German racism based propaganda and you don't even realize it. Pathetic. Why you doubt Crow then?


If you are talking about something you are rather expected to know at least what and when, Talking about 15 century and having only fragmented information about Germany during WWII is not a good basic for solid debate, In other words you are staling and you don't know your ass from your elbow.


I can do better then that, i can count all German writers, poets, scientist and all other notable people who were born or were native to land east of the river Elbe. I have as much right to do it as you to claim Kopernik and it is based on the same racist logic -" blood".


Any links? It is yet another assumption taken as fact and interpreted in specific way. I'm just saying because at the time people were specking many languages but that didn't matter as much as today.

The only reason I'm asking is to learn how they know that? Did they taped his fist word or videotaped?


I'm not debating his nationality but what nationality today have the right to claim him.


Milosz was an ass hole and internationalist; Mickiweicz was a Pole as in his time Polish in Poland (ex-Poland) still meant what British in Britain means; Chopin son of a Polish lady and French immigrant born in Poland, educated in Poland, whoever he was his music is essentially Polish music. I have no idea about music or anything but I can recognize his music no brother, why? If he was French then he done more than any other Polish composer to propagate Polish culture and spirit by his music.

Why do you need to be aggressive?
For my part, I've never been subjected to any German racist propaganda (may I remind you that I'm partly Polish too).


Then we agree, it's a stupid debate, since there is no debate. People would belong to communities, yes, very probably. Nations? Not really.


Born east of the river Elbe, maybe not, but southwest of the river Sekwana, maybe they do (some), as I once read that Christopher Columbus might actually have been Polish ;)

Talking about Christopher Columbus, another good example of 'nationless' hero.


Don't worry, I would never claim Kopernik to be German.
But his mother was Barbara Watzenrode, and he was born in Toruń, Prussia, where most of the population spoke German. That's all I'm saying. Silesian/German mother, Polish father. I don't think you can call that racist.


Maybe his early works were written in German. I think I read that a few times. I'll try to find more info tomorrow (it's getting late now).


Yes, his music is largely inspired by Poland, and he very probably was a Polish patriot. But still, he spent most of his life in France ;)

No worries tho, we have Debussy, Saint-Saëns, Ravel, etc. They are good too. We don't need to 'steal' Chopin.

One of the Frenchies' favorite celebrities has been Jean-Jacques Goldman (singer, songwriter) for years now. Born from a German mother and a Polish father.
He makes very good songs, I warmly recommend you to listen to them ;)

Of course not, because the last racist propaganda that came from Germany was in May 1945. To claim otherwise is simply BS or - as the commies used to call it - agitprop.

I'm not being aggressive I'm fed up with people who cannot get it. It is not first time that issue has been debated here.

Sure you have been subjected to German racist propaganda as German writing translated influenced many writers and people in other countries.


Well CC is a very mysterious person and most likely that wasn't his real name, so no wonder there are many theories as to his real identity. So what? Do you think that anyone is talking it seriously?Except for you that is.


Silesian at the time do not equal German, and she was allegedly German as we don't know that and as you said , it's a stupid debate,People would belong to communities.


So that is a guess. I mean what language he spoke first. It well ma be he was bilingual.


To be honest Don't care about Chopin, it is music which is important and his music is profoundly Polish, I cannot put it better than that.


German racism is not reserved to the Nazi Germany.
German racism is an ideology is a pillar on which German nationalism and German identity has been funded. One German state emerged in 1872 there were three or four themes justifying fusion of many different states which has been more or less independent for 600 years. One of those was connection of all Germans by blood.

That how it started. When German scholars put their mind to it and started devising a method. Not were they alone in their racist theories a 19 century is generally an age of scientifically devised racism.

No other it is not BS it stands to reason that 19ceturey new nation would be using modern at the time theories ie racism to further their goals. It fitted Prussian goals wonderfully. ]

One nation (blood) one kaiser one state.
Even old Frederick the Great has been elevated to the hero like father figure when in fact he was nothing like it. He was queer and neurotic tyrant he almost ruined his state during the seven Years war , the Prussian state has been practically finished. What saved that country was just luck, unexpected unpredictable luck. Nothing to do with his alleged abilities.

In my eyes, extreme nationalism and/or state sponsored racism is to a large extent a phenomenon of the 19th and 20th century. It has died in the ruins of WW2 and I doubt that it could ever raise its ugly head again in Europe. Germany is not the aggressive, imperialistic and/or militaristic country anymore - nor is France, Britain, Russia or Poland. Times have changed, and in my eyes it's not very helpful to repeat all this dated Cold War propaganda over and over and over again.

Speaking of 'Slavic vs Germanic thinking' though, I have to say that it seems to be very obvious who of our PF members grew up behind the Iron Curtain and who didn't (I mean this in a nice way, by the way!). I have friends in East Germany who display the same sceptical, slightly anti-captitalist, "You are the evil imperialists" attitude and who also have the tendency to see the past in a better light than it really was.

No idea what are you talking about but if that helps you it Ok.:)

LOL!!

no lols I honestly don't know what you are talking about as it doesn't describe my views at all.

No, it is not a secret and it's not sweet.
His message is clear enough.
Simply the guy made an attempt to remind us of something. Remind of something
important and at the same time remind us of certain feelings .
So far he has made two such attempts, to be exact .

You almost convinced me, dear friend, that Joachim Fest was wrong saying "In fact, nothing has changed (in Germany)". Your power of conviction is incredible, you know...

Yes, yes, how right you are, how right !!! The past was awful, simply awful ....
I still remember very well a story vividly described by a French (or Polish or may be by Russian ) writer about prisoners of a concentration camp who trod a nazi into the concrete floor..... and , you know, after the execution the floor was absolutely dry and absolutely level.......

If anybody wants to refresh his memory, I'll make an attempt to recall the author and the title.

German international is the right word

See you can do such things at the local level only ( within Germany), but not at the international level .
such as Global Monitoring for Environment and Security.
The commission has changed the name of this program under pressure from Poland and as follows from this link (copernicus.eu ) spelling Copernicus has been restored.

All this only proves that German thinking in some cases differs from Polish or European .

I think that Germany is populated by talented people so there is no need to do such things

More simply put, on a German map, "Warszawa" appears (less often nowadays, I admit, but earlier) as "Warschau", on an American map as "Warsaw", same for "Toruń", "Poznań" < "Thorn", "Posen" etc..

The French refer typically to "Varsovie" and "Cracovie"...

It is clear that your do not understand why the name has been restored.
This only proves that German thinking in some cases still differs from Polish or European .

Again, look if you would at a US vs. a Polish vs. a German, Italian world map and notice the differing spellings of world capitals.

Hey! Do you have problem with your vision or you haven't even bother to look at my post? The map I posted is a German map with Thorn clearly visible you need to click on the image to enlarge it.

But we are talking about spelling of names and surnames and it is the same within Europe And.
USA (within the so called western world ) The spelling Washington is used in USA, Italy itc

However, "New York" in Spanish is (still) "Nueva York", in Polish and other Slavic languages "Nowy Jork"
Polish "Szczecin" DOES remain the same in US maps/atlases, though in German, she's called "Stettin", in Italian "Stettino" and Spanish "Estettino". By the way, in Polish our capital is "WaSZington", declined as any other city name:-)

So what's your point finally?

@Ironside, after applying a magnifying glass (lupa) to the blow-up, I did indeed notice "Thorn" staring me right square in the face (twarz)

LOL

But , dear Wlodzimierz , I 'm afraid I have no patience with you !!!

You are reading and probably do not understand the meaning .

Read this again, please

Yet I've/we've all just proven that one CAN, and at the "international level":-)

All these wonderful an beautiful names supplied by you such as
"New York" in Spanish is (still) "Nueva York", in Polish and other Slavic languages "Nowy Jork" etc
are regional names that is local names ( local level ).

So it is difficult to understand what you want to prove ....... hehehe

Likewise, I'm sure. Perhaps I'm a little slow, R.U.R., but I nonetheless continue to fail to grasp your point:-)

"New York" in Spanish is (still) "Nueva York" - sounds very wonderful.
Let's announce to the whole world that from now on this wonderful name must be in use everywhere

Wlodzimierz : impossible to translate accurately, but approximating "secular piety"

Secular - not religious.
Piety - deep respect for Good.

Wlodzimierz , enlighten me on the subject, please....continue to fail to grasp too
Enigmatic !!!

I think (...) what he's saying is that he wants localized forms of place names to be abandoned and (in this case) the Polish version to be used worldwide. So not Warsaw or Warschau anymore, but Warszawa from now on. Sounds kind of strange.

continue to fail to grasp too ?
Read again, pls


I'm talking about Spain, it is evident, I think . hehe

Ok, let's generalize it , let's make a general statement. Let's take any local name and use it worldwide. Don't you see any analogy with Copernicus ?

And it is still about "secular piety" Don't you enlighten me, Wlodzimierz?
I haven't been sleeping well since I heard about the concept. Take a pity , please

R.U.R. (Valley he-he!!), one issue at a time:-)

If you're opting for EVERY country using its own native spelling, e.g. "Warszawa" in Polish, "Muenchen" in German, "London" in English etc., I do indeed take your point and I'd even tend to agree. After all, respect is due each nationality and that begins with saying their name right!

As far as explaining in several sentences what Plessner spends in over three-hundred plus pages regarding "secular piety" (Weltfroemmigkeit) may involve some doing. Suffice to say, that it concerns this peculiarly German view of idealizing the physical at the expense of the spiritual world, whereupon, owing in large measure to the aftermath of the Thirty-Years War which ravaged much of Europe throughout part of the 17th century, the Germans' feeling about religion and faith in G-d was basically destroyed and replaced with a mechanistic/scientific approach to Christianity. As Germany was also one of the last nations in Europe to "democratize" (remember the failed 'revolution' of 1848 ^^), the Enlightenment beliefs of equality of humankind, freedom from oppression and the Biblical "Love thy neighor as thyself" got lost within a hopeless bureaucratic hierarchy, in which all those abstract intangibles held little meaning for the average person.

England and France, as well as America, had already gone through an epoch-changing social revolution which Germany had not. Some claim that Germans had to wait until the post-War protests of Rudi Dutschke and others during Summer '68 to see any sort of social upheaval. For this reason, until this day, a seemingly innocent remark to a German over fifty about "middle-class values" etc, might well elicit a severe tongue-lashing, possibly even a black eye!! Germans of a certain generation, namely those who came of age during the 60's and who'd be today almost seventy, associate polite, Babbitish, stuffiness, civilized, apolitical conversation and the like, with everything their "Nazi-era" parents stood for and which they learned to resent.

So if someone tells you (s)he's from شرم الشيخ‎, what do you say? :)

"Transcribe, please!", would have been my response:-)

To expatiate somewhat, it's not a fair analogy because non-Latin script-based languages, e.g. Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Georgian, the Cyrillic languages such as Russian or Greek as well as most of the Asian languages (except for Vietnamese!!) are ALWAYS transcribed in international atlases for the benifit of those who do not read those languages:-)

There you go: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharm_el-Sheikh

As source of last resort.

Back on topic, German has another wonderfully "untranslatable" word LEBENSMUEDIGKEIT. It means roughly "world weariness" and refers to the distinct brand of 19th century German Romanticism, the idea of losing oneself in a sort of Never-never land of abstract tiredness of the real world in favor of an ideal world. The Russians (but not the Poles) have a word which I'm told translates as "heaviness of soul".