Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?

I was wrong, Poles don't look West they are West.

.And only reason for some collective prejudice that I see, is foremost believe in genetical inferiority of Eastern Slavs and their genetical similarity in those negative traits to each outher

Do you want to say that some people seriously believe that majority of Ukrainians are educated from the cradle as ultranationalists and Polish-haters?

I didn`t write that all Poles dislike Russians and Ukrainians but it would be fool to deny that plenty of them do.

Then only posibility for colletive prejudice is something genetical.From this follows increased interest to anything bad that Ukrainians may ever do.Which is not proportional to anything bad that more Western nations did.Sorry, but to deny it is just meaningless.

Is there any realistic story?

I`m very sorry about you relatives, but doesn`t is seem strange to you that on this thread already many people readily claimed that UPA soldiers killed their relatives.

And I did NOT deny anything, I just asked questions. For some of them I still have no answer.

If you find that weird then maybe the scale of the crime is underestimated, who knows...

Including me only 3

Look, part of my family came from Kresy but I have nothing against Ukrainians, even though some of my family terribly suffered through some of them.

I couldn't care less whether Poland is Central or Eastern Europe

Every time this topic comes up I wonder why it is so important for some Poles that they "officially" belong to the west.

The perception in Western Europe that Poland is part of the East will not change as long as people are alive who can remember the Wall.

Here is a quote of Boletus

In the same time there is no reference for this statement. If they are known by their names there should exist NAME by NAME list of victims.Was it ever published in Internet? If yes, could I get link to it? Or at least there is mention in Internet that this list was ever published in writen form?
If yes, where exactly?

so why you argue then?

Does this mean that eastern part of Germany (GDR) is Eastern Europe for Western Europe?

Unfortunately, you people are confusing geography with CULTURE.

Here is that book again, mister:

reference to government research team.

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.

I didn't argue, I was taking the p*ss out of you.

Polish lang. seems to be suspiciously similar to Russian,

I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it

Are Polish woman or men been sold in slavery?If not, how Polish government succeded to prevent it?

I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it, and I do not argue that everything writen there is holy truth, but if I no
make mistake it contains only dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles.

But what I would be glad to see is NAME by NAME list of those many tens of thousand Poles who where kiled.Wikipedia states that such list suppose to exist.It would be perfect also if this list I mentioned has reference to government research team.

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.

PAP: - Is the Ukrainian society aware of the size of the crimes committed by the UPA on Poles in Volhynia?

Jaroslaw Hrycak: - No, there is no such awareness. There are two reasons for this. First, half of Ukrainians do not know anything about the events in Volhynia. These are the data from the surveys of 2003, carried out during the discussion that took place on this time in Poland and Ukraine. It turned out that virtually no one in the east and south of Ukraine, and to a large extent in the center of the country, knew of the past events there.

This shows the level of amnesia in the Ukrainian society. Those who know what it was, keep in their mind the heroic image of the UPA. In this picture there is no place for the UPA as a party that could commit murders, which could be to blame. and it is - let's call it - a great story. In this great story there are little stories in which nobody talks about the UPA actions against the Poles, Jews, or even Ukrainians with different political views.

PAP: - Are Ukrainian historians in agreement with the Polish estimates of the number of victims?

JH: - Most disagree - believing that these estimates are exaggerated. Serious historians believe that there is no chance, no need to compare the number of victims, since there were a lot more of them on the Polish than on the Ukrainian side. However, there is skepticism about the scientific "inflation" of the Polish estimates, which - I stress it here - has nothing to do with the evaluation of the phenomenon itself.

PAP: - Is it possible to have the joint Polish-Ukrainian memory for that period?

JH - I think it's possible, but it is a matter of action. There are groups on both sides who aim at reconciliation. There was some motion in this direction in 2003. There was a symbolic reconciliation in Volhynia with Polish and Ukrainian presidents, Aleksander Kwasniewski and Leonid Kuchma, attending. But the problem was that it was a reconciliation with the participation of heads of state, not society. Journalists wrote about "The reconciliation behind the cordons of the militia". Behind these cordons stood the people who were against reconciliation, believing that it was degrading.

Today, I see even less chance that our government will deal with this, as a politics of remembrance was passed on Dmytry Tabacznyk, an education minister, who is openly pro-Russian. In his case pro-Russian means anti-Polish, which he does not hide. Therefore, I think that we cannot expect anything from the Ukrainian authorities, and this means that the burden of reconciliation lies with society. I remember sharp discussions about Eaglets Cemetery in Lviv, when it seemed that no agreement would ever happen, but in fact it occurred. It has become so, inter alia, through the involvement of the churches in this matter, which resulted in an ecumenical prayer on Eaglets Cemetery and at the graves of Ukrainian Sich Riflemen in Lviv.

Now we are preparing something similar in order to commemorate the events in Volhynia, and events in Chełm (about demolishing the Orthodox churches in the 30s of the twentieth century - PAP). We, meaning a group of Ukrainian and Polish public activists. We want to make a symbolic act in these matters. I once again recall Madeleine Albright's known words that reconciliation is like riding a bike; as soon as you stop pedalling you fall to the ground. We must always try to strive for reconciliation. Reconciliation should be a matter of society. I think it's about time for it.

PAP: - How can you explain the deep divisions in Ukrainian society regarding evaluation of the UPA ?

JH: - In theory, information about the UPA was never to be public knowledge, because that was a fundamental policy line of the Soviet Union. There was no talk about UPA, because just mentioning the name of the UPA was then treated as a hidden propaganda of UPA. The same attitude was directed towards hetman Ivan Mazepa or historian and politician Mykhailo Hrushevsky. Those were forbidden topics. In western Ukraine, the memory of the UPA survived because it was part of the family history. It's hard to imagine any inhabitant of Galicia, and Volhynia, which would not be involved in this story one way way or another. Everyone had a brother, uncle or father who was in the UPA and such stories are passed down the family line.

It is also important to know that many people suffered for the real, or imagined by the Soviet authorities, cooperation with the UPA. Many were persecuted by the NKVD, many were sent to Siberia. Dimensions of this phenomenon is difficult to assess, although historians have agreed that in 1946-47 there was virtually no adult male in western Ukraine, who would not be suspected by the NKVD of involvement in the UPA. These family stories only now are coming to light. Another part of the story was developed in the Ukrainian diaspora communities in the West. These stories were written down mostly by UPA members who - of course - created a heroic picture of the formation.

PAP: - However, not everyone in Ukraine have a positive attitude towards the UPA?

JH: - The strongly negative attitude towards UPA has that part of society which is guided by the Soviet version of history, but I would like to emphasize that in this version there is no place for Poland. It is interesting that the Soviet propaganda never used the events in Volhynia as an instrument of struggle against the UPA, or the memory of the UPA. This part of Ukrainian society, declaring the Soviet version of history, considers UPA fighters as bandits, because in their opinion the UPA fought against the Soviet Union, and therefore collaborated with the enemy.

Another argument is that the UPA were the nationalists. The nationalism in eastern and southern Ukraine, is one of the worst words. Just as in western Ukraine there is a negative way of thinking about the communists, in the east and south people think similarly about the nationalists. According to them UPA acted not only against the USSR, but was also in favor of the separation of Ukraine from Russia, which for many people in the East, who work for rapprochement with Russia, is not acceptable. Personal memories have also some impact on how UPA is being received.

After World War II, in order to strengthen the Soviet power in western Ukraine, agitators were sent there, including young women teachers from the east and south of Ukraine. Some of them remained there, however, there were accidents when they were warned by the UPA against such activities, or they were even murdered. To sum up: the east of Ukraine believes that the UPA was "a stab in the back" during the struggle between the USSR and Germany. But I repeat once again: Poland is not present in these stories. Poland is present only in this part of the myth, which relates to western Ukraine, but not in connection with Vohlynia, but with the interwar period, in which Poles oppressed Ukrainians, therefore Ukrainians had the right to oppose them.

PAP: What are the views the Ukrainian youth on the UPA ?

JH: The general trend is that the sharp division between the east and west of Ukraine is blurred among youth. How deep is this division is still under discussion. It is no secret that the children and grandchildren of those who fought on opposite sides of the barricades in 1944 or 1945, often got married. I know such cases, even in my own family. Secondly, for the young people this is only a story that does not cause strong emotions. Research shows that this so-called "generation y", who lives in a global world, with access to the media, to a large extent is more asocial than its predecessors and therefore more ahistorical.

wow, good you told us because nobody would have noticed. Take your toys and troll somewhere else.

So no, VLAD, no matter how you read that table it lists way more than only "dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles."

But those are numbers, not names. But I`m not going to argue about any numbers.I have no doubts that ultranationalism could get horrible at times.

The Mongols defeated Russia and occupied Moscow. The Mongol army continued into Poland and were eventually stopped by Polish knights.

Sweden devastated much of Poland but the Poles held out in the southern town of Zamosc. The Swedes killed the Polish Princess and took the crown jewels back to Sweden where they still are. No sign of any Russians.

Russia waited for Nazis to weaken Poland before they INVADED on the 17th September. NOT helped. NOT saved. But invaded.

they executed many on the spot and deported 700,000 to Siberia - including my Grandfather. In the Gulag he watched most of his friends starve to death.

Russia denied aerial support for the Wasraw uprising. Waited on the left bank of the Vistula until the Germans slaughtered the Poles in Warsaw.

After the war Russia denied Poland freedom to move, talk, print, speak. Most young men were turned into alcoholics, brainwashed, families destroyed, shot, deported.

They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler

The Polish army had 1,000,000 soldiers on maximum

Was it initial army that USSR won
war with?

Russia waited for Nazis to weaken Poland before they INVADED on the 17th September. NOT helped. NOT saved. But invaded.

They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler.

The Mongols defeated Russia and occupied Moscow.

consumed by ferocious Russian welcome

And I`m glad that now Poles have much better fertility rates then during communism and multiply in numbers instead desapear as a nation as it was under communists.And now Polish use drink much less vodka and much healthier.

Still I do not understand what technical difference makes for Poles whether some lands had been captured by Hitler or Stalin.Was Stalin for them any worse than Hitler?

There is a line beyond which no poster on respectable forum should go. There is ignorance, and there is a provocation.

All Russian states had to submit to Mongol rule and became part of the Golden Horde empire; some of it lasted until 1480

I would gladly modify it to everyones satisfaction.But rules of forum allows to do it just in first few minuts,maybe they will change it?