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Questions about Polish borders, Galicia and Cossacks.


delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
23 Jul 2012 /  #31
the Polonia (Poles abroad) seems to be way more nationalistic than the Poles at home.

Not all of them - the ones that went to the UK and Ireland seem to not be particularly bothered.

Same everywhere though - look at how nationalist those strange British types in Africa are, or look at how they behave in Spain.
boletus  30 | 1356  
24 Jul 2012 /  #32
1907 Austro-Hungarian Statistics, all of Galicia, population by language

I was curious how this look for Eastern Galicia only - 45 counties out of total 78 counties. Here are the results:
1907 Austro-Hungarian Statistics, Eastern Galicia, population by language
1 - Total: 4,126,428 (100%)
2 - German: 148,947 (4%)
3 - Polish: 1,291,177 (31%)
4 - Ukrainian: 2,681,383 (65%)
5 - Other: 4,921 (0%)

In case you are sorry for me doing all that hard computations by hand, I am reassuring you that the hard work was done by a magic of Algorithmic Language Scheme. The only mundane part was to format the table from the link above, as a list of lists - each containing county related data. After simplifying it a bit and removing Western Galician counties by hand I ended up with a structure like this:

(define east-galicia '(
("Bóbrka" 79336 396 23708 55209 23)
("Bohorodczany" 61626 5429 4657 51482 58)
....))

To calculate a particular population I used this definition
(define (population n)
(fold-left + 0 (map (lambda(z)(list-ref z n)) east-galicia)))


The usage:
(population 1) ==> Total speakers ==> 4126428
(population 2) ==> German speakers ==> 148947
(population 3) ==> Polish speakers ==> 1291177
(population 4) ==> Ukrainian speakers ==> 2681383
(population 5) ==> Other speakers ==> 4921
Slavicaleks  8 | 98  
24 Jul 2012 /  #33
My grandmother an ethnic Poleshchuk is 90 years old and from Belarus Ivanovo (Yanow) near Pinsk.
When she was growing up she was ''forced'' to go to a Polish school (the Poles banned/closed down the local schools) where they attempted to brainwash the young kids and make them ''Polish'' they were forced to stop speaking their native language (west polesian dialect) in public. Luckily for the local native population they were liberated by the Soviets (the soviets were not saints).

The same thing happens in all of Ruthenia (Kresy)
So the statistics released by the Poles are very biased.

The Poles did this, Russians and Germans through out history.

Remember we are all humans :) peace

ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Полещуки
boletus  30 | 1356  
24 Jul 2012 /  #34
My grandmother an ethnic Poleshchuk is 90 years old and from Belarus Ivanovo (Yanow) near Pinsk.

Do not try to muddy the waters. You were clearly shown that your statement about Ukrainian majority in all the Galicia was FALSE. You were also shown that your claims about £emkos being Polonized Ukrainians was ridiculous. None of the £emkos, no matter how nationalistic his views are, would ever said such things.

But you willingly wade deeper and deeper into your own nonsense:

So the statistics released by the Poles are very biased.

This is the Austrian statistics, not Polish. Do you have problem with myopia or do you try to push your propaganda? The links I posted refer back to:

Gemeindelexikon der im Reichsrate vertretenen Königreiche und Länder. [Gazetteer of the Crown Lands and Territories Represented in the Imperial Council]
Volume 12: Galizien (Galicia) Vienna, 1907.


(Family History Library microfilm number 1187928). Apparently the document is also available online through the online collection of Brigham Young University library.

It cannot be said any clearer than that.
Slavicaleks  8 | 98  
24 Jul 2012 /  #35
Its simple the Kresy region is Ruthenian. It has always had an overwhelming Ruthanian majority that's why today we have two Independent Ruthenian nations their, Ukraine and Belarus, very simple.

The Poles have been tried to Polanise the local population (ruthenians) since the the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Grand Duchy of Lithuania had a Ruthenian Majority:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Demographics

In 1260 the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the land of Lithuania, and ethnic Lithuanians formed majority (67.5%) of its 0.4 million population.[33]
With the acquisition of new Ruthenian territories, in 1340 this portion decreased to 30%[34] By the time of the largestexpansion towards Rus' lands, which came at the end of the 13th and during the 14th century, the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was 800 to 930 thousand km2, just 10% to 14% of which was ethnically Lithuanian.[33][35]

An estimate of the population in the territory of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania together gives a population at 7.5 million for 1493, breaking them down by ethnicity at3.75 million Ruthenians (ethnic Ukrainians, Belarusians), 3.25 million Poles and 0.5 million Lithuanians.[36] With the Union of Lublin, 1569, Lithuanian Grand Duchy lost large part of lands to the Polish Crown.
Chris R  1 | 34  
24 Jul 2012 /  #36
3 - Polish: 1,291,177 (31%)
4 - Ukrainian: 2,681,383 (65%)
5 - Other: 4,921 (0%)

Are you sure that these numbers were intended to be exclusive?

My experience researching this region at this time is that people could speak both languages, or sometimes what they spoke was a mixture. The percentages on the page cited above didn't add up to 100%. It may have just been a head count of what languages people were capable of speaking without being exclusive.
Puzzie  1 | 53  
24 Jul 2012 /  #37
The Kresy (Eastern Borderlands) region IS also Polish, in spite of the fact that during WWII the Ukrainian UPA mass-murderers slaughtered barbarously circa 500000 Polish inhabitants who had lived there for centuries. It is Polish in spite of the fact that today the Ukrainian authorities are trying to wipe away any traces of Polish culture and ancient presence there. (By contrast, we, Poles, haven't wiped out, but preserved evidence of German culture and life in the teritories ceded to us after WWII.) We got rich archives; we have preserved evidence of our presence and pioneering role in OUR Eastern Borderlands. (As well as evidence of horrific in their crudity Ukrainian ethnic cleansings of our countrymen, including women, babies and old people - may their poor spirits find eternal peace. We remember; we will never forget.) In the times of the first Polish Commonwealth, there was no Belarus nor Ukraine. There were no such nations. The territories were Polish. They belonged to the Najjasniejsza Rzeczpospolita, and the population was part of the Commonwealth population. It was overwhelmingly rural. It was the Poles who brought civilization to those largely savage lands, built cities there. It was the Polish state that protected those lands along with their Polish and other inhabitants from the Tatar raids. Without the Polish army your "Ruthenians" would have been killed off and captured into slavery by the Tatars. Do you know what the word "jasyr" means? It is us, the Poles, the "Ruthenians" should be grateful to for the fact that they exist today. Moreover, a huge part of today Ukrainian population is derived from Polish runaway peasants and other fugitives. Are you saying the Russians allowed Ukrainians to develop their own culture, language? We know how the Ukrainian poet Shevchenko lamented over the Ukrainians' rebellions against the Polish Commonwealth and their foolish placing themselves in the Muscovite paws. The result was incomparably worse oppression than that in the hands of Ruthenian lords under the Polish Commonwealth. And the "Ukrainians" (actually then just the Cossacks) tried to rebel against the Russians as well. But the Russians weren't as gentle as the Poles and they crushed the rebels so hard there were no Cossack rebellions afterwards.These are the historical facts, not the fairy tales from wikipedia. Nor your Polonophobic family stories about the Poles allegedly being bad to the Poleszuks, and the Muscovites being better to them. So now you're saying your family is from the Polesie? Didn't did you say before they are ethnic Germans with Polish surnames? Are you not lying here?

So the statistics released by the Poles are very biased.

Which stats relased by the Poles are allegedly "very biased"? Give them and prove they're biased.
Slavicaleks  8 | 98  
24 Jul 2012 /  #38
So now you're saying your family is from the Polesie? Didn't did you say before they are ethnic Germans with Polish surnames?

If you used your brain you would realize that everyone (including myself) has 4 grandparents, so obviously my grandparents all came from different countries.

yes Kresy lands had a Polish minority simply because it was not Poland. Ruthenian lands belong to Ruthenians (ukrainians and belarusians) hence the counties of Ukraine and Belarus
boletus  30 | 1356  
24 Jul 2012 /  #39
he percentages on the page cited above didn't add up to 100%.

I did not check how the numbers added up county by county. But I did notice that the grand totals did not add up correctly in the second table ("by language"), and this is why I warned about it in my first post:

[There is an error for grand totals in the original table. There are also some minor errors, like printing the number 1% whenever it should be 100%.]

For this reason I rechecked the calculations and presented the corrected results - both for all the Galicia and then only for the Eastern Galicia alone.

I am assuming that the details of the table are still OK, only the grand total was erroneously computed up by the person preparing the table.

Here are the original grand totals and the rechecked ones, side by side. The error is shown in bold.
Total: Original 7,044,153 => Rechecked 7,044,153
German: Original 190,895 (2.71) => Rechecked 190,895 (2.71%)
Polish: Original 3,763,341 (53%) => Rechecked 3,763,341 (53%)
Ukrainian: Original 1,610,229 (22.86%) => Rechecked 3,080,708 (44%)
Other: original 9,209 (0.13%) => Rechecked 9,209 (0.13%)

It may have just been a head count of what languages people were capable of speaking without being exclusive.

That's of course possible. See also this article by Brian Lenius.

Lenius has single-handedly made our Galician research much easier with the publication of his gazetteer. Over a period of several years, Lenius collected data from over 20 various sources, cross checked the information and compiled a complete listing of place names found in what was the Austrian province of Galicia.

Puzzie  1 | 53  
24 Jul 2012 /  #40
If you used your brain you would realize that everyone (including myself) has 4 grandparents, so obviously my grandparents all came from different countries.

Are you saying everyone's grandparents come from different countries?

yes Kresy lands had a Polish minority simply because it was not Poland. Ruthenian lands belong to Ruthenians (ukrainians and belarusians) hence the counties of Ukraine and Belarus

Not true; the Eastern Borderlands were Polish. They belonged to the Najjasniejsza Rzeczpospolita until the Partitions, that is the destruction of the Polish state in the late 1700s by the combined might of Muscovy, Prussia and Austria, and the division of the Polish territory between those nations.

Your minority theory is false. In reality, it's not the Poles, but the Cossacks, Ruthenian masses (today called Ukrainians) and the Belorussians, or rather White Rusins, who were a minority. Namely, they were a minority in the Polish state. The fact that in Florida the majority of inhabitants are Latin Americans doesn't make Florida Latin American; it remains part of the United States.

So the historical facts show that the Eastern Borderlands were part of Poland and then were grabbed from her by force. As such, many of us still think of them as part of Poland. And certainly we will never erase from our memory our powerful historical presence and rich culture there. During WWII Ukrainian chauvinists tried to slaughter all the Polish inhabitants in the Eastern Borderlands, and the present Ukrainian authorities have been trying to destroy any traces of our historical presence and culture there. History shows any such attempts are futile. Eventually, Ukrainians will have to accept the fact that we, Poles, also have the right to feel at home in the Eastern Borderlands.
polishprincess1  1 | 2  
24 Jul 2012 /  #41
I agree with Slavicaleks and I am pure Polish from Poland !
Just look at history of eastern Slavic tribes and Kieven Rus'
By the way Rus stands for Ruthenia.
East of the Bug has never been Polish but always Ruthenian
Slavicaleks you should be proud to be Slavonic !!! We are the same. Have you been to Poland ?
Puzzie  1 | 53  
24 Jul 2012 /  #42
East of the Bug has never been Polish but always Ruthenian

It's not true. The historical evidence shows the Easter Borderlands were Polish for long ages.

I am pure Polish from Poland

You're saying you're "pure Polish from Poland", but in your bio you write you're in Lviv, which is a city in the Ukraine. Besides, your saying that the lands east of the river Bug were never Polish is Polonophobic. So are you really "pure Polish from Poland," or rather a pure Ukrainian nationalist from the Ukraine?
hague1cmaeron  14 | 1366  
24 Jul 2012 /  #43
Just start with a history book. I would highly recommend Adam Zamoyski' s The Polish Way as a starting point.
Slavicaleks  8 | 98  
24 Jul 2012 /  #44
Slavicaleks you should be proud to be Slavonic !!! We are the same. Have you been to Poland ?

haha good someone can see past nationalism and pride and just see truth.

Yes i am proud of my slavic heritage hence my username ;p
I've been to Poland about 2 years ago for about 3 months. Then I traveled to Belarus , Russia and Ukraine all up for 9months. I have family in Poland,Belarus and Russia.

All were good and bad but I would have to say that St. Petersburg was the most impressive place by far.
Puzzie  1 | 53  
24 Jul 2012 /  #45
I would highly recommend Adam Zamoyski' s The Polish Way

A very good book. Also, Norman Davies's books dealing with the subject of Eastern Borderlands seem indispensable. If I remember it right, in "Europe" he speaks critically about some Ukrainian historians who attempt to propagante a chauvinist version of Ukraine's history.
polishprincess1  1 | 2  
24 Jul 2012 /  #46
I work in Lviv. It's not too far from where I grew up in Lubaczow. Why must I be Ukrainian ? I am Polish I just work in this country for couple years and I recently moved back to Lviv with my Polish husband he work he now also.

Slavicaleks I have done some travels in Belarus and Russia its very nice like Poland but of course I like Poland I am Polish. When your travel in Slavic countries you can see we are all the same people and same culture. I must go now nice talk to everyone bye
Puzzie  1 | 53  
24 Jul 2012 /  #47
Yes i am proud of my slavic heritage

But you wrote you were an ethnic German. Would you regard the Germans as Slavs?

When your travel in Slavic countries you can see we are all the same people and same culture. I must go now nice talk to everyone bye

Well, the quoted statement of yours doesn't seem Polish at all, but more like Russian. Very few Poles are pan-Slavic; I've never met before a Polish person using the expression "Slavic countries." Therefore I doubt you're Polish. Also, I doubt Slavicaleks is what he or she says he or she is. You seem, people, (Russian?) trolls to me.
Ironside  50 | 12375  
24 Jul 2012 /  #48
I work in Lviv. It's not too far from where I grew up in Lubaczow.

Lwow is west of r.Bug, what is your point?
boletus  30 | 1356  
24 Jul 2012 /  #49
I agree with Slavicaleks and I am pure Polish from Poland !

Agree with what? He is all over the place with his claims and he cannot focus on one single issue, the Wikipedia warrior.

Yes i am proud of my slavic heritage hence my username ;p

Yes, so are the suspended alexmac, and also alxmac and the prussianwolf to boot. Identity crisis on the big scale. Your rambling, under various user names, about Poleszuks are completely incomprehensive and - as we Poles like to say - od Sasa do Lasa. No one is going to take you seriously if you do not focus and stay within bounds of logic and not pure emotions.

You claim that your Poleszuk grandmother was forced to go to Polish school, and that Poles banned/closed down local schools.

Well, there were never, ever Polesian schools, because there was never, ever Polesian written language - neither under Poland, nor Soviet Union, nor Belarus. How do you want to provide kids with formal education in a language, or rather a dialect, which has no written system (Cyrillic or Latin?), nor a grammar, nor comprehensive written dictionaries? So no, there were not Poleszuk schools ever. There was nothing to be banned or closed - stop spreading such blatant lies. Once again you have shown that you knowledge of local history, any history, is really shallow and superficial.

West Polesian can be considered as one of the Slavic microlanguages, in effect a transitional language between the Ukrainian and the Belarusian.
West Polesian is still mostly used in everyday speech, though attempts have been made in 1990s to develop a standard written language for the dialects.

At the end of 1980s, there was a minor campaign in Soviet Belarus for the creation of a separate "Polesian language" based on the dialects of Polesia launched by Belarusian philologist Mikola Shylyagovich and his associates. However, they received almost no support and the campaign eventually melted away.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poleszuk [you own link, which you did not bother to read with comprehension]

In 1921 about 71% of Poleszuks were still illiterate. Given a choice of not learning how to write and read in any language whatsoever or learning Polish in a Polish school what would you elect? So stop complaining and living in you fantasy land.

The thirties brought significant reduction of illiteracy among Poleszuks. Yet, 25% of the children did not go to school. True, that brought some Polonization of Poleszuks: before the WWII their spoken language contained about 25% of Polish words - the percentage was up to 40%-50% among the youth.

Fact is that 62,5% inhabitants was not able to describe their nationality and their language, giving the name "local" in censuses. They also called their speech "simple" or "peasant" - as opposed to "lordly" or Polish speech. Those were the simplified Belarusian dialects, with big admixture of Polish, Russian and Ukrainian words.

I am not denying that Poleszuks indeed formed the majority in Polesia - as opposed to Ruthenians in Galicia. There were only 14.5% of Poles there, 10% Jews, 6.6% of nationality aware Belarusians and 4.8% Ukrainians. That makes 64% of Poleszuks, with 36% of all the others. With the exception of the southern belt, inhabited by Ukrainians, the allocation of roles was simple. Poles lived in Brześć and sparsely in smaller towns as officials, railway workers, soldiers of Pińsk river flotilla and landowners. Poleszuks and Belarusians were peasants and Jews monopolized trades, crafts and wood industry. Among the Catholics a group of several thousands of Polish petty nobility was visible, often speaking mixed Polish-Belarusian, but with their strong feeling of class consciousness.

That was the God forgotten country, with marshes taking 45% of the Province (21% in Brześć county, 65% in Kobryń county). Only 23% of the area was an arable land.

The greatest curiosity of Polesie was its almost natural economy. Peasants produced a little corn and potatoes (the lowest yields in the country) and cucumbers and cabbage - mainly for their own use. Pigs and poultry fed themselves in the meadows. Eggs were exchanged in the store for the salt and matches. Peasants built unicameral huts from wood, clay and straw, sewed clothes of linen and leather, made carts and agricultural implements; wooden plows were often in use. Nails and metal parts were often substituted by wooden parts. To buy crafts they had to go to "town" district, and such a trip, for example, to Pinsk, could take up to 15 hours one way.

Fish played the important role; but it was often caught by mass wastefully. Cattle grazed in marshy meadows, hence it was small and not productive. However, it was a measure of wealth hence it was grown in large numbers. Many Poleszuks had up to 40 cows, but many of them served only as producers of manure - the only fertilizer used there. The further away from the railroad the more natural the economy was. Here and there, not even matches were available; embers were kept in pots and when the fire expired new embers would be borrowed from the neighbors!

[partially translated from: docs6.chomikuj.pl/269683909,0,1,Polesie.pdf

Slavicaleks, I am not sure whether or not you are just making all your family history up, but you must stop your wikipedia warrioring. To really learn a bit about Polesie, check this page of "Towarzystwo Miłośników Polesia", The Association of Polesie Fans. They have there plenty of pre-war photographs, including those of Zofia Chomętowska, the forgotten artist.

polesie.polinfo.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=46

It's in Polish, but photographs do not need translation. See for example, this series "Polesie Landscapes", polesie.polinfo.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic le&id=60&Itemid=46&limitstart=1


  • Zofia Chomtowska - Market on Pina River, 1930s
MPatnoi  
3 Apr 2014 /  #50
I am grandson of a man who left Poland to go to Romania in mid to late 19th Century. His surname was Patnoi, although when he came to America they may have changed his name from ? He was a taylor and I was told that taylor in Russian language may have been Patnoi. Any help would me appreciated.I

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