Polish president Mościcki and Hermann Göring hunting together in 1938

Well, as just seen, you prove it all the time here but maybe we can add stupidity to being racist?

The question gumishu makes is WHAT makes a country, not exactly when or how long. It is not necessary to have been living there for ages, but, in his opinion, being a majority justifies the ultimatum and occupation of the lands. This is a typical explanation of a rightless agressor.

Borrka, you have to agree that Poland made huge mistakes in regards to its neighbors in the 1st half of the XX century and the history rolled out the way Poland made it to.

I don't use any double standards. I am actually correcting people using them. My point is: you may be majority in a region, but you are a part of the country no matter what. Yes, Poles were majority in certain regions of Lithuania, so??? You want to be with Poland? If yes: train one-way. But occupation of Lithuania on grounds of Polish majority there is wrong.

I'm not sure what you are talking about - your knowlegde of history seems to be somewhat compromised :P

well you claim Poland bullied it's neiboughrs - and I say from the best of my knowlegde Poles claimed only Polish majority territories from Czechoslovakia in 1938 - prove me wrong - and lo and behold these people were pretty indigenous there and not migrated there in less than the perspective of hundreds of years

btw Polish inhabitants of Wilno area were not settlers for the most part - they were indigenous people who became polonized in the course of 18th and 19th centuries with no Polish state present

well Bratwurst one can argue if the Germans had such right to resettle because it is quite probable that those Germanic tribes who used to live on the southern Baltic coast simply moved out and went for search of warmer lands - like those Vandals who used to live in southern Poland but ended up in Algeria and Tunisia (with no Slavic tribes involvement) - many scholars believe Slavs encroached west on what were mostly emptied lands

But then that Polnischer akzent, you might have blond pubic hair - hair/eye color is not all - I bet you have a 'karnister kopf'

you only got Civilized in Germany ? what about Polish Civilazation - is it not good enuff for ya?

Such a history only serves the settlers...won't want to be seen as conquerors and invaders, won't we!

Maps show german "TOWNS" deep inside of what is now Poland...2000 years old...so much for empty!

Carefull with that BB, the problem with that story is that Germans never went far above villages in the area, then Poles show up and *BAM* civilisation.

Cities like Poznań or Gdańsk were built by Poles you know, before them it was a nice huge forest there.

Poland was never really inhabited by Germans, they settled here and there but it took proto-polish tribes to actually build a civilisation here, Kraków, Poznań, Gniezno, Gdańsk... all major urban projects in the region were polish in origin, Germans only started their own after 400+ years of polish development.

Also... what towns?

And you really believe that, don't you! Ha!

When the world talks about giants of civilization they don't talk much about Poland but about Germans....ever wondered why?

The map of Ptolemy showed fully developed towns in what you now call Poland already 2000 years back and every town has an environment of villages and farms as it can't exist alone.

Already flourishing before the first Pole set it's dirty paw into these lands!

I can understand you if you want to try to pull off your superior stuff with Ukrainians and Lithuanians or whomever else eastwards of you but you are speaking now about the mighty german people here, the center of the white, western civilization...you can't hold a candle on us regarding achievements!

I know Poles like their realm of fantasy where they rule but please leave us out of it..

I dont have to, the problem is that you're presenting the "german version" which is bloody chauvinistic and false hence Poznań and Gdańsk became Posen, Danzig and other polish built cities got converted into "german" ones in your historiography.


Tabula Peutingerian never got even as far as Berlin but according to you it shows Poland???


We can't? We've conquered Moscow, twice you never did.

We built a university a full century before you did.

We had democracy when you still had god emperors who were often nuts:)

We had a constitution generations before you even started thinking about stuff like liberties.

We were among the precursors of tv among Manczarski

We invented holographic technology, we invented synthetic coloring of clothes, we invented a reverse polish notation that runs every calculator in the world to this day...

In the inter-war years Poland had the 6th place in the world when it came to inventions and technological innovation, great white Germany whatever had 9th.

Yeah sorry to burst your bubble but we can definitely hold the candle your chaunivistic outlook notwithstanding.

Fact is what is now Poland was two barns and a sh*tpit when Germans ruled it, we built towns, cities, monasteries and schools, we made it into a country that incindentally stopped your expansion which is why we're your neighbours today unlike an arseton of other peoples you exterminated, we're here because we could equal and best you on every field, incindentally it took Russia to bring our power down not Germany.

Your point?


Ever the german chauvinist, love bursting your bubble BB:)

Btw care to elaborate about religious tolerance in medieval Germany vs the same in medieval Poland?:)

Yeah today Poland is under the horse but if history is any indicator the coin will flip sooner or later, it always did and the great mighty center of the universe Germany is going to be a sh*tpit again, for the paradise Germany was supposed to be a helluva lot of Germans came to Poland in the past 400 years :)))

They might've been hungry, opressed and fleeing their backwards strife ridden country but hey they were civilized!

Your country got wealthy due to Marshalls plan and here you are all cocky, if you want we can do a quick comparison of when Poles came up with something vs Germans:)

Given all terrtorial claims our neighbors had against Poland any kind of "friendly" relationship with them was not possible.
It would have meant no Polish state at all.

Border disputes with Germany excluded Poznan and the rest of the German partition zone = the true heartland and true cradle of Poland.
White Russians didn't want to discuss the issue "independent Poland" even having bolsheviks knife at the throat.
Czechs attacked Poland using the first opportunity and Lithuanians were stubborn as usual.

There was absolutely no free space for diplomacy, for bayonets only.
I don't try to decide who was right and who was wrong, which claims were well founded which not.
I just try to describe the political situation of the region.

There was probably some "political" place for compromise with Ukrainian Nation but with which political representation of Ukraina ?
Deals closed with Petlura for example were nothing for Ukrainian bolsheviks, monarchists, bat'ka Machno etc.etc.

I repeat: without those "huge mistakes" no Poland at all or rather a narrow stripe along the Vistula river from Plock to Cracow - once I've seen a fictive map of Poland being acceptable for its neighbors.

Poland could easily get the borders it has today at least on the eastern borders and know 100% that nobody will stab it in the back. Poland signed an agreement with Czechs in 1925, but for some reason went back on its word and attacked them in 1938. Why? Did they threaten Poland? What about Lithuanians? Did they threaten Polish state integrity? NO. In 1930s Germans were building tanks, military planes and fleet, sent their soldiers for practice with another "friendly" to Poles state - Russia and Poland somehow didn't do a bit about that obvious like bright day threat to its independance. It went on against those who were not a bit interested in Polish land.


It is actually bat'ko Machno :) Well, Petliura was flexible with allowing Poland to grab western parts of Ukraine (at least temporarily) in order to secure Pilsudski support against commis. But Central Rada and most of Ukraine considered such an agreement as a treason. If Poland didn't encroached into western Ukraine after on 11/01/1918 Ukrainians declared independance of the Western Ukrainian Peoples Republic (ZUNR) and simply signed an agreement to mutual military cooperation - it would have been much to Polish future advantage. Instead Poland decided to sell Petliura's ideas to commis just to get western Ukraine secured in its hands. Again you signed treaties of non-agression with Germany!, why didn't you do the same with Lithuania, Czechoslovakia or Ukraine if the latter threatened your country's integrity? You see - not smart. But Borrka, don't take it personally - this is just one aspect of the problem. Believe me that I see a lot of faulty decisions on the Ukrainian side too.

Nathan, you are mixing political and "moral" aspects of the situation.
The only "big shots" of the region were Germany and Russia.
Poland played a kind of wannabe local power with no real political influence and lot of problems.
The rest has meant ... nothing.
Zilch.

Polish conflicts with Lithuania or Czechoslovakia were of no political importance and even friendly alliances with them wouldn't have change the history.
I repeat - there was a chance of some Polish-Ukrainian cooperation what always was profitable for both nations, but neither we nor you were ready for it.

He had nothing to allow, Poland retook its native lands and Petluga could do sh*t about it.

Ukraine was a sack full of different factions, no one to talk to, it was a weak divided state that was nothing but a pawn in the local politics (like always).

They were big shots because we had always retarded disagreements. Neither Germany, nor Russia would be a big factor (as they did) for either Poland or Ukraine if instead of wars we each concentrated our attention on the respective "shots" alone. Example, Poland cooperated with Russia to suppress multiple Ukrainian insurrections. In 1667 (Treaty of Andrusovo) Poland and Russia split Ukraine in half. By weakening Ukraine and introducing Russians to its doors, Poland was later surprised of being split the same way by Prussia, Austria and Russia. Imagine one thing: Poland deals with Prussians and Ukraine with Russians. One front, one enemy and secured back. But by letting wannabe imaginations work, the opportunity of firm establishment was lost. Unfortunately.


Exactly. If you see your wannabe status then, maybe, it is a great idea to form a healthy alliance with your quite non-agressive neighbors like Lithuania and Ukraine. I bet that multiple wars Poland led on the above-mentioned lands caused Polish non-important status and not being a "shot".


I bet that signing agreement with Germany about non-agression was of more importance to Poland than agreement of cooperation with Czechs and Lithuanians. And yes, it would have changed history. Czechs were ready to defend their territory and they had enough power to at least hold Germans for quite some time and bring them much damage. Poland could withold its demands on Czech lands and talk to Polish best friend - Hungary (I am not jealous :) - to let Slovaks live in their own country, under their own law. If Poland and Hungary could have done that, who know whether Hitler would have been so eager to invade Sudeten region.


Unfortunately, Pilsudski could do sh*t about it for so looooong - 20 years!!! Impressive.


Ok, I am happy for your non-pawn status in international politics of the XX century ;)
All I am saying is Poland was able to destroy and occupy the whole world three times - no problem, with one hand. Nobody should even doubt it. I don't. But a bit of mutual cooperation in the international relations would have been of quite some value, at least, to your humble neighbors, your Majesty Sokrates.

With whom? You people couldnt and still cant sort out different factions in your country, i'd love to have a partner like chat with Ukraine but there's no one to talk to there now and there was no one to talk to there then.

Also back then there was a question of Lwów, you expected us to give away one of the oldest polish cities offering nothing in return.

Well, I can offer now my middle finger if this is what you are asking for. I don't expect anything - I am just deliberating on possibilities, that's all.

Ukraine is a weak divided region, Poland had nothing to gain from cooperating with various ukrainian factions.