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Polish president Mościcki and Hermann Göring hunting together in 1938


gumishu  15 | 6193  
23 Nov 2010 /  #31
well actually what the film tells is an interesting story which some of our historians and authors have studied and debated about (the topic seems a little controversional) - the story belongs to the realm of 'what if' - the core of the thing is previous to March 1939 the Third Reich (and Hitler personally) were pretty keen to make an alliance with Poland - there was little to none aggressive rhetoric in German Nazi controlled media against Poland for a good couple of years - even before the start of the War the Nazi rulers didn't formulate demands that would cripple Poland much unlike what they demanded from Czechoslovakia in 1938 (the demands were ceding Gdańsk to the Germans while it was a German city anyway (with some Polish minority) and was of little value to Poland (it was not part of Poland - Poland had a couple of authorities over Gdańsk inluding duty and post) and exterritorial routes (a highway and a rail line) to the East Prussia through 'the Polish corridor' in Pommerania. (well there was also proposed plebiscite in the Polish corridor but Germany would have leave the port of Gdynia to Poland regardless of the plebiscite outcome with free access to the port for Poles through the inland)

Hitler was quite an admirer of Piłsudzki to the extent that after Piłsudzki's death he (1936) declared a national mourning in Germany - it was also a sign of friendly policies towards Poland (top Nazi echelons attended a mourning service in the memory of Piłsudzki)

The main goal of Hitler was a conquest of Russia which Poland as an ally would have much faciliated. Having Poland as an ally would enhance Hitlers option in that he would have been able to decide which way he wanted to turn his forces first - had he wanted to assault France first the Polish ally would be his shield against possible Soviet interference - with the help of Poland and most probably other central European countries like Hungary and Romania Hitler could have instead attack Russia first sooner than it actually happened having secured a line of defence (based on fortifications) on the French border - one can argue whether it would be more succesful but the further starting location of the invasion and at least a million more soldiers (Polish army) make the invasion look better on paper.

Hitler treated Poland as a friendly country in 1938 because the Poles anexed Zaolzie joining German crippling of Czechoslovakia. Ribbentrop even congratulated Poles for that. But the Polish policy makers were not that keen to join up with Hitler instead they were seeking reassurance from France and Great Britain. The turning point for German diplomacy came when Chamberlain issued guarantees for Poland's territorial integrity which Poland's ruling elite (foreign minister Beck) had taken as genuine - which in the hindsight were just luring Poland into stiff stance and eventually war with Germany - it would have given the western allies some valuable time - the time proved not enough for the French but enough for the British.

there is even a quote by Hitler going as that (Polish translation): "- Zrozumiałem, że jeżeli uderzę na Zachód, Polacy, wypełniając swe zobowiązania sojusznicze, zaatakują nas - mówił Hitler do swych oficerów na tajnej konferencji w Berchtesgaden 22 sierpnia 1939 roku. - Dlatego zdecydowałem się rozpocząć wojnę z Polską. "

which in English reads as this : I have understood, that if I strike west, the Poles, fulfilling their ally duties[to France], will attack us. That's why I decided to start a war with Poland" ( these words were allegedly spoken on a secret conferrence Hitler held with his high command in Berchtesgaden on 22nd august of 1939)

(the source is a polish historian Bogusław Wołoszański)

similar alternative history is also a part of Harry Turtledove political fiction 'The War That Came Early'

you can also choose to read this : comicism.tripod.com/390822.html - some excerpts of the Berchtesgaden conference in English

was the ultimatum to Lithuanians made in 1938 discussed there too

well the ultimatum was not much malevolent actually

if you can read Polish Nathan you can have a read of this : prawica.net/node/15900
vetala  - | 381  
23 Nov 2010 /  #32
Hitler treated Poland as a friendly country in 1938

Not so much. In October 1938 Germany expelled 17.000 Polish Jews and dumped them at the Polish border without consulting the Polish government. Poland first refused to take them in and then threatened to expel 17.000 Germans. This does hint at mutual hostilities.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
23 Nov 2010 /  #33
German jewish refugees in Poland...

...
The Polish government was extremely unhappy about the whole situation. Trying to pay the Germans back in their own coin, it threatened to expel German citizens from Poland, especially German Jewish refugees who had arrived from Germany in previous years. In this tragic situation, where the mutual animosity of two anti-Semitic states was typically and brutally expressed by the maltreatment of each other's Jews.

Interesting find:

6.12. German-Polish action against Jews in 1938: Camp at Zbaszyn

geschichteinchronologie.ch
gumishu  15 | 6193  
23 Nov 2010 /  #34
Not so much. In October 1938 Germany expelled 17.000 Polish Jews and dumped them at the Polish border without consulting the Polish government. Poland first refused to take them in and then threatened to expel 17.000 Germans. This does hint at mutual hostilities.

sorry but hardly hints at hostility - Germans wanted to get rid of all of their Jews including those who held Polish citizenship - the obvious way to do that seemed to expell them to Poland - Polish authorities at that time thought Poland had enough of their own Jews (many Polish politicians thought that Poland needed to pressurize the Jews living in Poland to leave the country i.e. to emigrate but as far as I know it was never an established policy but some milder policies were introduced like in the document BB has given a link to)

If this goes off topic posts will be binned. Please, be careful how you post.
vetala  - | 381  
24 Nov 2010 /  #35
Interesting find:

Yeah, I've read this whole site. I especially liked how almost everytime the word "Poland" appears, it's preceded by "antisemitic". I didn't see an other mentioned countries treated in the same way so I assume it must be some collocation which I'm not familiar with :)

sorry but hardly hints at hostility

It does. Whatever was Poland's and Germany's policy towards Jews, it doesn't change the fact that a country isn't supposed to dump 17.000 people at another's border without their consent. It's not a very friendly thing to do.
1jola  14 | 1875  
25 Nov 2010 /  #36
Same link, Jews at that time were not exactly welcome anywhere:

[6.9. England 1938: Press protests against Jewish refugees]

Harry  
25 Nov 2010 /  #37
Were those Jews British citizens? Or was it only Poland that refused to allow its own citizens to come back to their own country?

Also from the link which you have just quoted from:

On June 15 the Polish Telegraphic Agency reported that those Polish Jews from Vienna who had nevertheless succeeded in crossing the Polish border would be put into the Polish concentration camp of Bereza Kartuska.

So much for the outrage about 'Polish concentration camps'. Now we have proof that the Polish government entirely approved of the Nazi policy of sending Jews to concentration camps.
1jola  14 | 1875  
25 Nov 2010 /  #38
I see you're feeling multicultural today, Harry. Here is a nice pro-Semitic story to take your mind away from concentration camps:

Maariv reported on February 23 that the Tel Aviv municipality launched a "counselling program" to "help" Jewish girls who date and/or marry Arab boys.

Grassroots and governmental campaigning against interfaith mingling is nothing new in Israel: Just a few months ago there was a "task force" set up by the municipalioty of Petah Tikva, which is basically a suburb of Tel Aviv. The job of the task force was to patrol the city at night and break up Arab-Jewish dates. The London Times also covered the activities of a concerned parents' group vigilante gang patrolling the rapidly integrating Jerusalem neighborhood of Pisgat Ze'ev, intimidating mixed couples.

But this is the first time officially sanctioned racism, funded by taxpayers, has come to Tel Aviv, Israel's liberal heartland.

coteret.com/2010/02/24/tel-aviv-presents-municipal-program-to-prevent-arab-boys-from-dating-jewish-girls/

Or perhaps a happier story?

This morning, Maariv reports that the Yeshiva's dean has just published on the proscribed dos and don'ts (mainly the former) regarding the killing of gentiles. Here are some choice excerpts.

Also, anyone who weakens our own state by word or similar action is considered a pursuer...Hindrances-babies are found many times in this situation. They block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force. Nevertheless, they may be killed because their presence aids murder. There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults."...

Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
25 Nov 2010 /  #39
...they block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force.

Mean babies!

...There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us

This rabbi would make a bona fide Nazi!
Harry  
25 Nov 2010 /  #40
This rabbi would make a bona fide Nazi!

Nail and head there. Well, he would do if he was a mate of Goering anyway.

I see you're feeling multicultural today, Harry. Here is a nice pro-Semitic story to take your mind away from concentration camps:

And as usual you can see only the bad things in other people: you criticise Jews for doing exactly what Poles do and you insult a Polish patriot who stopped his country being invaded when you yourself betrayed Poland by joining the armed forces of a foreign power and standing ready to bomb Poland as soon as ordered to do so.
OP Nathan  18 | 1349  
26 Nov 2010 /  #41
[quote=Nathan]Goring was the head of the German air force....Kliest and Guderian were the Panzer boys...

Yes, I know. I mentioned his position in my opening post, but since he was one of the highest command in the army and coordination of tanks and planes is usually discussed at the same time, I called the tanks "his" :)

Was this before or after Poland and Germany had teamed up to invade Czechoslovakia?

It was just before. They, probably, were discussing the upcoming invasion of Czechoslovakia while hunting.

if you can read Polish Nathan you can have a read of this

I've read and the ultimatum to Lithuania was outrageous. Poland took huge chunk of Lithuania and demanded its citizens to smile. I don't see how it wasn't "that bad".
gumishu  15 | 6193  
26 Nov 2010 /  #42
How many Lithuanians lived there? Why do you insist on calling Lithuania what was inhabited by huge Polish majority? Again if Poland wanted to conquer the whole of Lithuania it could have easily done it. You must have misunderstood or not understood the whole of the article that I had given a link to. It implies that the ultimatum was arranged in a secret cooperation between the authorities of both countries. And it's aim was to normalize the relationships including establishing embassies etc.
OP Nathan  18 | 1349  
26 Nov 2010 /  #43
It implies that the ultimatum was arranged in a secret cooperation between the authorities of both countries. And it's aim was to normalize the relationships including establishing embassies etc.

Gumishu, an ultimatum is not a way to normalize relationships even if you try to bribe that country's politicians which (if this is true) betrayed their country.

Why do you insist on calling Lithuania what was inhabited by huge Polish majority?

Northern parts of Poland were heavily populated by Germans. Poles were minority there. Moreover, these people were not willing to be part of Poland, but you decided it differently for them, right? So, why do you insist on calling Pomorze Polish then? You occupied their lands. Who cares if on these lands Poland dumped thousands of its immigrants for the last centuries or Polonized the autochtone populace? The land is theirs and the only thing which you could do to avoid conflict was to remain part of that country.

Imagine hypothetically a mass immigration of French into Poland and then claiming that territory a part of France. How would you feel? But Poland decided to use force instead of rational diplomacy.

What really bothers me is the fact that instead of making a good ally in Lithuanians, Poland p*ssed on such possibility. It did the same to Slovaks, Czechs, Ukrainians. You wouldn`t be alone at the bad times to follow if the politicians used more of their arrogant brains. Wouldn`t you agree that it would have changed many things on the continent? Agreement of mutual support you should have signed with your neighbors, e.g. Lithuanians, not the French. But again Poland decided to show its countryside to foreign spies (Hermann Göring) while kicking Lithuanians in the butt. How smart was that?
Borrka  37 | 592  
26 Nov 2010 /  #44
a mass immigration of French into Poland and then claiming that territory a part of France.

Exactly the way Germans colonized Pommerania !
Perhaps you don't know it but what you call "Northern parts of Poland heavily populated by Germans" used to be Slavic and part Polish lands before German annexation.

Germans were same way "newcomers" like Poles in Wilno .
Pommerania was Germanized and by no means Polonized as you suggest !.

Stll I'm strongly against all kinds of expulsion.
What is your time line to accept sombody's right to his "Heimat" ?
700 years ?
Maybe 500 would be enough ?
But under 400 years people should be expelled or "Volhynia - slaughtered".
It's really striking to watch your double standards, Nathan.
POLENGGGs  2 | 150  
26 Nov 2010 /  #45
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Yes.... Northern Poland was overrun by poor peasant Germans... the Polish cities were Germanized and even Churches too. Its just like that South Africa - It all belong to the BLACK SAFFA, not the White, definately not the Colored.

lol

'Northern Poland' in the inter-war period , was the Polish corridor , so you could go fishing for sledzie.

Moszczynski probably didnt care, and Goering also - he was busy getting high with cheap cocaine in Warsaw and other such things which he was a fan of :-)
Harry  
26 Nov 2010 /  #46
Exactly the way Germans colonized Pommerania !

And exactly the way that Pommeranians colonised it before them.
POLENGGGs  2 | 150  
26 Nov 2010 /  #47
exactly Pommeranians ..... NOT Poles.
Are You and others who think like You starting to get the 'jist of things' ?

PS: It is funny how people on this forum like to point out how popular the word Jew is... supposedly amongst Poles - Yet who the 'ell are they, Eskimo, Polonophiles , or just Sad people Posing as Poles ?

because I have learnt that 'Polonia' (especially from North America, deserves its own 'nationality' )
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
26 Nov 2010 /  #48
Exactly the way Germans colonized Pommerania !
Perhaps you don't know it but what you call "Northern parts of Poland heavily populated by Germans" used to be Slavic and part Polish lands before German annexation.

And before that it used to be german lands before Poles wandered westwards and settled there...
We had been there before you, interesting how you keep to forgetting that!

Germans had every right to re-settle there again as it will happen in the future again! ;)

What is your time line to accept sombody's right to his "Heimat" ?

Good question Borrka...ask that yourself!

You keep calling Germans who lived in northern Poland or Silesia etc. for 500 and 1000 years at "settlers" and "colonists"....

Just think about the polish pearl "Krakow", after the mongol hordes destroyed the town it was rebuild and settled by Germans...who in the course of the millennia got polonized.

Just one example of the german heritage of much of Poland!

Do you call Krakow Heimat Borrka?
Trevek  25 | 1699  
26 Nov 2010 /  #49
Simon Schama's "Landscape and Memory" speaks of HG's love of hunting and gives a hilarious description of HG in blouson shirt and rubber flying trousers showing the world's press some bison (who refused to mate for the camera).

And before that it used to be german lands before Poles wandered westwards and settled there...

And weren't they Balt lands before either of you got there?
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
26 Nov 2010 /  #50
Simon Schama's "Landscape and Memory" speaks of HG's love of hunting and gives a hilarious description of HG in blouson shirt and rubber flying trousers showing the world's press some bison (who refused to mate for the camera).

Göring was a hero flyer in the first world war (Pour Le Merite), he was the commander of the red Baron himself...
Interesting character...he played the lawyers at Nuremburg for fools, being highly intelligent (IQ 138) he run rings around them.

But all that early success and praise must have muddled his brain somewhat....

And weren't they Balt lands before either of you got there?

Were they? I don't know of Balt recordings before the Germanics...
Harry  
26 Nov 2010 /  #51
exactly Pommeranians ..... NOT Poles.

That was precisely my point.
Trevek  25 | 1699  
26 Nov 2010 /  #52
Göring was a hero flyer in the first world war (Pour Le Merite), he was the commander of the red Baron himself...

40 kills, wasn't it?
Mr Grunwald  33 | 2138  
26 Nov 2010 /  #53
exactly Pommeranians ..... NOT Poles.

Today there are Poles with "Pommerian" heritage and their "Polish" So... does it make any more sense now? :)
POLENGGGs  2 | 150  
26 Nov 2010 /  #54
And before the Balts and Germanics, there was Serbo-Luzyczanie in all modern day Germany & Poland including the landmass of Czech & Slovak republics.

Yes.

PS: Didn't Jesus go to America to visit the Natives?
Mr Grunwald  33 | 2138  
26 Nov 2010 /  #55
Was this before or after Poland and Germany had teamed up to invade Czechoslovakia?

Probably before and after

And before the Balts and Germanics, there was Serbo-Luzyczanie in all modern day Germany & Poland including the landmass of Czech & Slovak republics.

Celts? Weren't they there too?
I don't like ancient times... too many people! :)
Borrka  37 | 592  
26 Nov 2010 /  #56
exactly Pommeranians ..... NOT Poles

Nobel prize for "Poles" living in those old times, genius LOL.
Pommeranias were much closer to the tribes united by the Piast dynasty than for example Masovians (today Warsaw) or Cracow area Slavs (White Croatia).
Pomeranias were Western Slavs same way like Polanes, Lusythians, Obodrites etc.
It's hell of ignorance to speak about Poles in Adam and Eva days.

And before that it used to be german lands before Poles wandered westward

As it used to be Neanderthaler before Germanic tribes wandered west
ward LOL.

Do you call Krakow Heimat Borrka?

Yes I do. Got no problems with German Gastarbeiter hired by Polish kings.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
26 Nov 2010 /  #57
Yes I do. Got no problems with German Gastarbeiter hired by Polish kings.

Gastarbeiter! ROFL :)

Look at your heritage Borrka...and how much of that is german (Buildings, art, towns, technology, science etc.)
Your Kings needed the Germans to build up your country! And now you need us again to build you up...some things never change...funny isn't it!

Think about that next time you call Germans in WHAT IS NOW Poland "settlers" or "colonists".

PS: You know Borrka, I always wondered about your fanatic stand on "the Germans hate the Poles by default. Always had, always will". I tried to discuss with you seriously but I now know that is futile...it might even be right that Germans hate YOU, but that is your fault. You are an unsympathetic being with one can no build understanding or even friendship. So yes, in your case you might even be right, GERMANS DON'T LIKE YOU!!!

But you are not Poland, nor (gladly) the majority of the fine polish people...with those we have no problems with and can build a good future...you on the other hand I want to kick in the nuts all the time, get used to it, to my and our dislike! You have only yourself to blame....
Borrka  37 | 592  
26 Nov 2010 /  #58
GERMANS DON'T LIKE YOU!!!

Oh boy !
Germans do LOVE me!
I speak perfect Hochdeutsch from Hannover area.
I'm blond, blue eyed like Adolf's Germanic Uebermensch.
I'm hard working like Germans used to be in Bismarck's times.
I'm emboding German secret dreams and fantasies of civilized Poles:).
Civilized under German influence of course.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11914  
26 Nov 2010 /  #59
Oh boy !
Germans do LOVE me!

No...they don't! You are an racist arsehole...sorry!
Borrka  37 | 592  
26 Nov 2010 /  #60
You are an racist arsehole.

Me, racist ?
I'm Slavic subhuman only.
Cannot even dream of being racist LOL.

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