Poles in the Napoleonic era

Well....Frederic wasn't called "the Great" for nothing! :)

That's the typical, narrow-minded view which is based on nationality and language, which is not suitable to explain the politics of the 18th century. The Prussian takeover of Silesia led to huge changes in the administration of the church, state, educational system and so on. Education became compulsory (!), freedom of religion was established, and the state administration became closer to the people. This was all very progressive, but meant that minorities had much more contact with the majority. For instance, each child had to go to the school, and church services were hold in the language of the majority (and not in Latin anymore). That's why the Polish minorities in Lower Silesia disappeared while the Polish majority in Upper Silesia stayed.

in German - for all including Polish subjects - I don't call that liberal - btw there was some education there before with Polish tutors which the decree of Frederic the Great clearly states -

it's interesting you object to the idea of deliberate germanization policy of the Prussian state (against obviosity and sources)

there was enough freedom of religion in Silesia before the Prussian conquest and what Prussian state actually did was imposing a new lutheran state-run church (in some places Old-Lutheran church remained which did not pursue any germanization policy) - you can read about it here for example (you need to read through the discussion)

historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=48263
btw Poles were the majority in many areas of Lower Silesia in 1764

Well...a state mostly has only one official language...that's the language of school, university, media, bureaucracy etc.
But what the Poles spoke at home was no concern of the prussian gov.

PS: Poland did the same as it tried to incorporate ukrainian-mostly territories. It's was every nation state does!


No, it wasn't.
Prussia was one of the most advanced countries in Europe...freedom of religion and wide spread secularity was one factor.
Bismarck later tried with his "Kulturkampf" to take out the church of all important questions, making Prussia full secular.

I am, of course, fully aware that the actions of Frederic the Great were being achieved in the context of the 18th century. In France, for example, the policies towards other languages were exactly the same as in Prussia: French was put forward as the language of the state at the expense of all other minority languages around the country.


In many parts of Lower Silesia the Polish were a majority rather than a minority before Frederic the Great. Your explanation does not give any clue as to why germanization succeeded there, whereas it did not succed in Upper Silesia; the Polish-speaking area in Upper Silesia started even to expand westwards in the beginning of the 20th century to the great concern of the German authorities.

Do you have any numbers?


I can tell you the reason, the so called "germanization" by the mean Germans was neither as brutal as polish nationalists like to paint it.

Again, Prussia was an advanced state with many minorities. Under Prussia Poles grew from a mainly agrarian society to building up an urban middle class for the first time. They grew and prospered, not exactly a sign of brutal opression, isn't it.

Prussia invested heavily also in polish lands, build infrastructure, modernized, educated...name it.
But some Poles can't help themselves, for them Prussia had to be the demon.
For decades Poles immigrated into Prussia...millions wandered westwards, it can't have been that bad.

sure - read this - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Lutherans

.....Ja? Also not really successfull, wasn't it? Also it wasn't about the Catholics at all...

;)

who called it brutal - it was however a consistent deliberate policy with a clear aim (teaching only in German whereas teaching in Polish was present before - seems like the Habsburgs didn't mind their subjects knew little or no German at that time)

You complain that Prussia had no minority politics before the age of nationalism? And, so what?
And of course there was education before Prussia... either for children of wealthy people and/or education provided by the church, which had no use for the ideas of the enlightenment.


I object the idea to mix up Poland, Silesia, Frederick, Bismarck and to create a huge Anti-Polish conspiracy. History is a bit more complicated, and Prussias politics in Silesia were quite different from the politics in Poland.

Do you know that Frederick also invited Czechs and Poles to Silesia? How does this get along with his alleged Germanisation efforts?


LOL, this hurts!
1. Silesia was almost entirely protestant before the counter-reformation
2. Because of the counter-reformation (do you know what the counter-reformation actually was?) a large number of people fled to Saxony, Brandenburg and Poland (so much for religious freedom)

3. this Silesian matter was so important that several conflicts between Protestant and Catholic powers occured, which led the churches of peace, among other things
4. the border churches along the Silesian border also show the large number of Protestants
5. the building of a church and the appointment of a pastor were a matter of the community, the Prussian state just gave the permission. You think all the Protestant churches which popped up shortly after Prussias takeover were built for fun?


No, Poles were actually a minority already in 1400, when Germans surpassed them.

there were purely Polish Lutheran parishes around Wrocław that had been affected by the policy - the new pastors limited or excluded service or sermon in Polish after the Union

Poles?


Sure it was, pushing the official language of the country!

Show me the schools in Poland where people of non-polish heritage learn their languages only, and not polish.

PS: Germany even today tries to push german as official language in Germany...some minorities have more problems with that than others...they suffer later heavily for that.


?

simply wrong it seems - read the discussion in hisorycy.pl which quotes sources

Can you show me the chapter about the Poles in the link you posted?

not all sources in the web are English language - not all you can find in Polish wiki is ever mentioned in the German wiki - seems like you are a bit narrowminded

Ditto! :)

But I trust german history teachings abit more if I'm honest. We had purged our history from nationalistic myth's for decades, excercising in self-flagellation and cruel honesty. Compared to polish teachings who even today call Silesia "recovered territories".

what is that you don't understand here - there was some education in Polish before the Prussian conquest (i.e. in the times of the Habsburgs in Silesia ) - Polish wikipedia quotes a decree by Frederic the Great which abolishes education in Polish and imposes education in German only instead - there is no mention about it in German or English version of the same article for whatever reason


which Poles :P

Other forums are hardly a good source, especially when the discussion centers around small linguistic islands and different periods of time.

read it first then judge

The Prussian state was an abomination . The world is better for lack of such. Half of the lands belonging to Prussia went into Polish hands which is only just taken into account partitions.

Germany would do a wise thing removing all traces of Prussian mindset from their traditions.

In Silesia lower Silesia last polish(Silesia) speakers were common about 1890, their children could only understand they parents speaking polish. Their grandchildren turned into BB:)

Gee Crow is right :)

Do you mean the austrian partition or what?


We wouldn't be Germany without them:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues

I don't know - are you stupid? or just have a deep-rooted desire to deflect any difficult questions?

of course I mean the times of Habsburg rule of Silesia (where did I mention the austrian partition)


I would argue that if you told Bavarians that they owed their 'Sense of Order' to Prussians they will be pretty pissed off

not to mention some other points of your list

Well...I can't speak for the Austrians...I'm more of a Prussia-fanboy! :)


Well..they are Bavarians, what do you expect! ;)

well, you claim Prussia was so much an enlighted and liberal state

from my point of view back in 1746 Habsburg rule of Silesia seems much more liberal (allowing for education in one's mother tongue)

or maybe allowing for education in one's mother tongue is oppression rather than liberty - how do I know after all?

I'm not sure what you want to say with that? How good had been the prospects of polish-only speaking Poles in the Habsburg empire? Do you really think that was a favour???

Or did they just don't care...no compulsory education either...hmmm...how did the polish society develop under Habsburg rule? Did they grow and prosper??? No?

had the Polish culture been preserved these lands could have returned once to Poland (yes they were parts of Poland before in case you didn't know) - it's not very kind of you to demand of people to abandon their language simply (especially when you intend to use them as cannon fodder next)

Wow ! you are almost perfect ....you need to add - common sense and sense of humour!and voile :)
Superwurst !

Well, it doesn't help the Turks in Germany either to keep to their language...they suffer their whole life for it.

Prussias rules were made for all subjects living there...didn't matter if german, polish, french, jewish...one official language and compulsory military service for all. It was not perfect but one of the best for that time!

Poles flourished in Prussia...not in Austria, not in Russia, not under Nazi rule, not under Commie rule but in Prussia. Keep that in mind...

I just read that list of virtues and......and......and......and realized that I was Prussian. lol

:)

That what I say all the time...Prussia the country may have abolished, but Prussia is more of a state of mind anyhow, an attitude! That never dies...:)