When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed?

No, you were just obeying orders...

problem is that one never know what is enough for Germany. This is how Germany grabbing land on Balkan >>>

German foreign minister Westerwelle today visited Kosovo what is by Serbian constitution Serbian territory. Here is what said Westerwelle on sovereign Serbian territory: “Independence of Kosovo and its territorial integrity are a fact,” Westerwelle said and added that “the map of the Balkans has already been drawn”.

Idiots miscalculated. They just opened Pandora`s box announcing new phase of Drang Nach Osten. We shall see who would finish this game

Anyway, its just the matter of time when would German appetites turn to Poland

I suggest this refers to Hanse towns joining forces with Polish/Lithuanian commonwealth against the Teutonic Order, as part of dispute over trade.

Bismark, a speech by the man himself. interesting reading: h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/speech.html

an excerpt: "When I think about the reasons for this, there comes to mind the Catholic department [of the Prussian government] which, until its abolition by my direct intervention as minister-president, possessed the character of a Polonizing organ inside the Prussian administration. (Unrest in the Center Party and among the Poles). Under the direction of Herr Kraetzig--I hope he lives still, it had become an institute of a few great Polish families, in whose service these officials pushed Polonization in all the contested German-Polish districts. That is why it became necessary for me to agree to the abolition of this department. And this is actually the reason I generally concurred in the Kulturkampf. [5] From my personal point of view, there would have been no Kulturkampf. (Vigorous contradictions from the Center Party.) Yes, gentlemen, say what you will. I leave you to your doubts. There will be a few who will believe me, but I am rather indifferent as to whether anyone believes me. Yet, for anyone who wants to be informed, it is necessary for me to give my personal opinion.

The person who drew me into the Kulturkampf was Herr Kraetzig, the chairman of the Catholic department, which was formed in the Prussian bureaucracy to protect the rights of the king and the church. However, it developed under the king's authority and seal an exclusive activity in the direction of protecting the rights of the Roman church as well as Polish machinations against the king. And for that reason it had to be dissolved. ("Aha!" from the Center Party and the Poles.)

Yeah...imagine that...polonization of Prussia by a growing, well off polish middle class.
Poles having the same rights and duties as all other Prussians.

I bet you never heard about that one contrary to the beloved myth of the oh so poor, tortured Poles bravely fighting the mean barbarian Prussians.

Gdansk / Danzig ledthe Prussian Confederation which askedKing Casimir IV to join Poland in 1454 and allied with them against their former overlords in the Teutonic Order. The treaty was signed in Danzig. I'll quote from the wikipedia page since you like to use it as a reference:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Confederation#Establishment

"After about three decades of growing discontent, the Prussian leaders (see Prussian estates) organized themselves to oppose the rule of the order more effectively. On 14 March 1440, a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdańsk), Elbing (Elbląg), and Thorn (Toruń), founded the Prussian Confederation in Marienwerder (Kwidzyn). Several more towns joined on 3 April, although Bütow (Bytów) did not. In Danzig, the new members signed a document[1] which was kept in the archives of Thorn."

" Gabriel von Baysen and Johannes von Baysen, now leading the confederation, requested the protection of King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland. They also asked for, and received, a guarantee of their continued city rights and privileges for the gentry."

The same thing happened many times before with Hanse cities. Riga allied with the Lithuanians in 1297 to get out from the oppression of the (German) Teutonic Order.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis#Alliance_with_Riga


All of the ones in Prussia, to start with. See the links above.


No I think you are a little confused about this period of history.


It was a bit more compex than that....


I think the HRE included subjects of every central European race, including Bohemians, Poles, Italians, Swiss, Flemmish, Frisians, Burgundians, Hungarians, Moravians, Wlachians and numerous others during it's history. More importantly, it's ruling class included Aristocrats from many other parts of of Europe including Spain, Bohemia, Hungary, Poland etc. etc.

I also don't think you know much about it. But that's ok, neither did I until I read a few books.

G.

You mean that?



Coat of Arms Germany
2010

I wasn't saying they did become Polish, I was just suggesting that was what the original comment referred to.

Arguing with history is pretty ridiculous, it is what it is mate.

They asked to become part of the Polish kingdom BB. It was a permanent shift from German to Polish rule. After the 13 years war the city of Danzig and the other West Prussian cities were part of Poland for the next three hundred years, until the Polish partitiion. They eventualy got seats in the Polish senate. They never asked to return to the rule of any German state.

As for their german city laws, independent cities off this type existed in the Holy Roman Empire as well and in many other parts of Europe. In the HRE these were called "Free Imperial Cities". Almost all of the significant Hanse cities had this status. Of course free cities also existed in Flanders, in Lombardy, in Switzerland etc..

There was more than one type of German, the Hanseatic cities were at least as far apart from the mentality of the Teutonic Order as your ideal of Germans and Poles were. That is why Hamburg and Lubeck refused to let Hitler speak in the 1930s

telegraph.co.uk/travel/citybreaks/5428909/Lubeck-The-town-that-said-no-to-Hitler.html

G.

Sorry, I didn't meant you....that comment was for the newbie here!

Poles will never give back the land to Germany. For the same reason parts of Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine will never be given back to Poland.

The lines have been drawn and after the persecution* of the ethnic Germans in Poland, there isn't much of a volksdeutsche minority (or at least compared with the interwar period).

* I understand the persecution of Germans after the war in light of events during the war, but that does not justify it.

Erm...and you want to say what?

The Hanse has been a german merchant organization....trade was the first on their minds.
The Teutonic Order tried to get to their wallets, they lost.
The Hanse made these towns rich and prosperous.
It still were Hanse towns and Danzig and Breslau and many others stayed german towns till the Poles did what Germans never had done, they expelled the millions of Germans from their homes for centuries.

Seriously? That is the best you can do? A flag?

How old are you?

G.

For someone who doubts the German character of the HRE or the German character of the Hanse one has to be blunt! :)

This coat of arms is the oldest continuously used coat of arms in Europe and one of the oldest in the world! Nearly 1000 years!


ROFLMAO

back to the books with you!

for any decent Polish patriot German involvement against Serbia on Kosovo is practically another German attack on Poland

never is a big word!


file complain against your government,

Not at all?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9507E4DF1E38E033A2575AC2A9679C94679FD7CF

do you think the Teutonic Order got control of that area to begin with? The Germans never expelled people from their homes? For real? Do you really want me to start citing examples?

G.

Not at all


Compare that to 14 Millions and whole towns...


But no condemnation or even apology by the Poles even today...

But this was at the start a Frankish kingdom, which had Hungarian, Bohemian, Spanish, and Flemish kings, had subjects who spoke Italian, Slovenian, Czech, Flemish, Frisian various dialects of German.

As a wise man once said, it was neither Holy, nor an Empire, nor Roman. And it was not exclusively German by a long shot. Saying it has a German "Character" is a little bit of a wiggle from claiming it is 100% German.


You seem to be surprised to learn some basic facts so far in this thread. Were you unaware that Danzig had asked to join Poland?

Your own argument now seems to be it doesn't matter what nation a city belongs to... perhaps you should leave it at that.

G.

No really, what would the Poles do without the history of the Teutonic order? All the books, and movies and reenactment battles and nice castles...;)

Poland made grave mistake for let Germany to overrun Western Slavic territories. Its biggest sin of Poland

fortunately, Northern Serbs survived and they have very active relationship with Southern Serbs. One day, when Poland arise and decide to respond on German threat, Poland may play on Serbian card. That card cover zone from Baltic to Balkan, zone of biggest German interest. Plus, playing on Serbian card Poland preventing Russian betrayal in eventual schemes with Germany.

Good news is that Serbs wait for that day, day when would Poland arise. So, its up to Poland

I know about the history of quarrels with the Teutonic Order.
Many Poles see these times as fights of Poles against Germans through the lenses of the 21th century and here I object.

Polish and German history was intertwined in many ways for centuries...That german merchants had a gripe with a german order and build alliances to secure their trade can't be interpreted even by the biggest idiot as "Germans seeking refuge in Poland from german opression!"

Get real man!

Danzig still stayed a german prosperous center of trade full of Germans under german law and speaking german (till 1945) that is!


I'm talking about today and it's fine as it is!

The arguments spring up if Poles want to falsify german history in Poland or deny german history in Poland at all!


Well..aren't you claiming Poland of the middle age was "polish"? Even as it had millions of Germans innit?

That's numbers (I don't mean that in a non-human way). It was still deportations.

Hey, I'm not saying the post-45 deportations were right, just showing how nationalist mythologies have their roots in earlier actions.

I suspect you don't know much about this. Read up on the 13 years war. It was a war between the Poles and the Germans, with the Prussian cities on the side of the Poles. It's pretty unambiguous. And I'm not a Pole.


It wasn't merely an alliance, they asked to be part of Poland and negotiated the conditions of joining. Be precise.


That is how they described it in their own words... but of course, that assumes that these towns were really German. They had majority German populations and spoke German, but by that standard Boston would be part of England or Ireland.


Step off the nationalistic propaganda bus. Read the real history you'll find it's interesting.

G.

maybe BB but in XvIII Those germans prefer to be part of Poland than go to Prussia.
Thi is the fact. Gdańsk/Danzing was the most loyal polis city, their citizens were loyal to Poland even after first partition when Prussia took the all cost. Only the "german" city stay polish ;)

A bit ironic when you think Lubeck (the pearl of the Hanse) was colonized by Slavs at the expense of the Saxons, who Charlemagne was a bit annoyed with.

Why ironic? That's Europe as we all know and love it! ;)


Any links for that? When did they start speaking polish instead of german?

true, let's start sizzling those brotherhood sausages.

Yeah :)

I didn`t say that. Maybe they were speaking german but they prefer to be a part of Rzeczpospolita ( Poland) than belong to Prussia.

Links - I read it in the book, but I will search in int.